Killing Blow Change

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Vietnow
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Killing Blow Change

Post by Vietnow »

With the massive increase of units immune to KB, and the decline of the units most susceptible to these hits, it has become less of a perk. Esp the rule allowing characters to become immune based upon monstrous mounts.

I propose the DE community make a push for a change in the KB rules.

I would like to see KB become more of a "critical strike." Perhaps ignoring armor and/or dealing D3/D2 wounds. Personally I would likely trade the current rule for either of these, but preferably a combination of the current rule and those listed above.

This would make KB effective in many different situations, but without creating an overpowered killing machine. Using our executioners as an example; They would remain very dangerous to heavily armored cav, heavily armored monstrous cav (and the characters who ride them,) and monsters. They would remain vulerable to tarpits and ward/regen saves.

I'm not trying to make execs overpowered. I realize they are currently fantastic, and perhaps slightly under priced. I mean 1 more point than a GS, equal to a black orc, and one point less than a white lion. White lions are slightly underpriced if you ask me, stubborn is greatly undervalued. I don't want a unit that beats everything. I just feel KB is more situational than ever, and needs a revamp.

Thoughts?
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CitizenKhaine
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by CitizenKhaine »

I like your thinking, I find that against human sized enemies, the S6 hits kills them anyway and KB is useless against trolls, ogres and their ilk. Ignore armour would be good against knights or the 2 or 3 wound option good against ogres etc. But to be fair the cost would have to go up :cry:
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by Thraundil »

I'm not sure a direct change in the killing blow special rule is needed here. (What would happen the cloak of twilight induced killing blows in a challenge, as they also make d3 wounds? :P ok very situational example). Just a change in the executioners rule. They are specifically stated in the fluff to dedicate their entire lives to "knowing the way to kill every creature with but a single blow". Except for all monstrous infantry, beasts and cavalry riders, monsters, and chariot riders. So the whole "every creature" thing kinda falls to the ground right there. Not proposing that executioners get heroic killing blow (that would be freakishly gamebreaking!), but executioners could indeed use a little workover on their rulings. Especially if it would make them actually counter monstrous cavalry, which they currently don't without augments/hexes or other combat help. An ignore armor on 6 to wound would be very nice there. An option to ignore regeneration would also help. (One would assume they have practiced killing trolls the proper way!)
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by Dyvim tvar »

I think the OP is suggesting that armor would only be ignored on a roll of 6 to-wound, not all the time.

I think this would be a good change. A unit/model with KB could still gain some advantage against Monsters, Monstrous Cavalry, etc. even if they can't kill them outright. Would help balance some of the 1+ AS Monstrous Cav and Steam Tanks.
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Daeron
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by Daeron »

Yes, I would quite like the idea of armour being ignored on the roll of a 6. It would make the ability more useful and widely applicable. That said.. It would gravely imbalance Executioners or give them a painful point increase.
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Red...
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by Red... »

Armour is nearly ignored by executioners anyway, as Strength 6 = -3 to armour saves, reducing even the best armour save in the game (1+ save) to a 4+ save, making it 5+ for most heavy cavalry and 6+ or no save at all for the rest. It would be good for their weapons to be armour piercing though, as you would think a draich would be, and that would contribute more seamlessly to making them anti-armour than making them ignore armour on the roll of a 6. You could also have them ignore the hand weapon and shield 6+ ward save, on the basis that the draich just cleaves through the shield as though it were paper.

Adding multiple wounds is difficult because executioners are rank and file models, rather than characters. You can very quickly end up with way too many wounds being done to monsters, monstrous creatures, and characters, which would massively imbalance executioners. I don't think you could have them remove regeneration either, both because again it would be a huge boost to them and because it wouldn't really fit with the fluff of regeneration (severed that head? who cares, it grows back...). Actually, I think this is an instance where changing the fluff line would be better than changing the attribute (e.g. "knowing the way to kill nearly every creature with but a single blow".) Again, it would be reasonable for a character to do D3 wounds and ignore regeneration etc, because gamewise it wouldn't be too strong. If you start giving those attributes to rank and file models, you face a problem. That said, I do think back in the 5th or 6th ed book, executioners may have done D3 wounds (IIRC), but that was a very different game meta a decent length of time ago.

So, I'd suggest the only change that might be beneficial would be to make the draichs armour piercing and (possibly) have them ignore the hand weapon and shield ward save. In exchange, they could perhaps be 13 or 14 points a model.
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Dalamar
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by Dalamar »

Killing blow - on a roll of 6 to wound, the attack ignores armor and deals D3 wounds.
Heroic killing blow - as above but D6 wounds.
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Dalamar wrote:Killing blow - on a roll of 6 to wound, the attack ignores armor and deals D3 wounds.
Heroic killing blow - as above but D6 wounds.


I like this idea.

Would slightly weaken the ability in some respects, strengthen it in others. I don't think it would require any points adjustment.
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by Dalamar »

I couldve been writing rules for warhammer but gw decided not to hire me.
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Vietnow
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by Vietnow »

I think it rarely weakens the ability. Sure you may only do 1-2 wounds to a lord, on foot or on a horse, but in every other aspect it is improved.

Heroic takes a large hit, but seriously it's still good, like really good.

I'd even be happy if the roll of 6 just ignores all armor. I would settle for this. Monstrous cav saving on a 4+ still saves half wounds. Sure this only means one more wound out of 12 wounds, on average, but at least KB does SOMETHING then.

The last time KB came into play for me, was with an Empire Witch Hunter sniping a L2 chaos sorc. With my execs it has become either, redundant(as the model only has 1 wound,) or useless, (monstrous cav/beast mount.)

I'm ok with a slight point increase, I just miss people being scared to put any character/cav unit into combat with my execs. It's not like they welcome S6 attacks, but it isn't the same.
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by Vietnow »

Dalamar wrote:I couldve been writing rules for warhammer but gw decided not to hire me.


Next time included on your resume how much more money you'd make them.
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Re: Killing Blow Change

Post by maximon »

truth be told, I feel like you should not get a parry save versus any great weapon; not just ours. its a two handed weapon, you aint gonna parry a two handed weapon unless you're secretly a chaos lord.

also I think KB should be 1 wound no armor saves allowed, or be essentially heroic killing blow with the exception that you cant kill a character, and heroic killing blow would allow you to one shot characters
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