Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Have a question about the Warhammer rules? Ask them here!

Moderator: The Dread Knights

Post Reply
Eldarwonderland
Warrior
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:20 pm

Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Eldarwonderland »

In a game last night we came upon this situation.

Cauldron + Hellebron charges 15 cold one knights (Lizzies)
Hellebron + impact mangles most but then they get Speed of Light cast on them, Hellebron loses rerolls, fluffs and dies.
In the next turn it gets charged by a Bastilodon in the flank.

Leadership of COB is dashes for both chariot and witches elves crew.
I was of the thought that because there is no leadership on the chariot it fails and dies.

We played it that GW have failed in the army book and it had leadership of 8 (witch elves lrd) but that was because it was a friendly game :)

I reckon it should be dead, and it's MY COB so I'm not showing any favouritism.

Am I correct?
Avatars of War: ordered vestals in March for April delivery, finally arrived Dec 15 2014
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Calisson »

GW failed indeed - but they carried on their failure into the summary sheet at the end of the book.
When you see the same information p.47, p.87 and p.96, well, you cannot argue that it's a typo.
So Ld 0 = autofail, you cannot even test for insane courage.
Note that the COB does not die, it flees - and if it is charged later, it could win and rally.

I suggest you painted the crew's hair in blonde.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Liquidedust
Highborn
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Liquidedust »

Calisson wrote:GW failed indeed - but they carried on their failure into the summary sheet at the end of the book.
When you see the same information p.47, p.87 and p.96, well, you cannot argue that it's a typo.
So Ld 0 = autofail, you cannot even test for insane courage.
Note that the COB does not die, it flees - and if it is charged later, it could win and rally.

I suggest you painted the crew's hair in blonde.


Can a CoB even rally if it flees and Death Hag / Hellebron dead?

My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0
User avatar
Taijushue
Cold One Knight
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:49 am
Location: Washington

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Taijushue »

since it is a - and not a 0 does that mean that it could not use the generals inspiring presence as well?
User avatar
Liquidedust
Highborn
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Liquidedust »

Taijushue wrote:since it is a - and not a 0 does that mean that it could not use the generals inspiring presence as well?


Two sides to that arguement.

One is that you aren't allowed to take the test to begin with so cannot use inspiring presence.

Other is they replace their leadership prior to checking.

My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0
User avatar
Red...
Generalissimo
Posts: 3750
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Location: Baltimore

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Red... »

Does insane courage not apply? I thought all leadership tests passed on the roll of a double 1, even if they theoretically have a lower leadership test number than that?
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman
User avatar
Liquidedust
Highborn
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Liquidedust »

Red... wrote:Does insane courage not apply? I thought all leadership tests passed on the roll of a double 1, even if they theoretically have a lower leadership test number than that?


They fail automatically remember.

My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Calisson »

Liquidedust wrote:Can a CoB even rally if it flees and Death Hag / Hellebron dead?
BRB p.10, characteristic test of "0" or "-" is autofail.
Therefore, generally speaking, a lone, unridden COB cannot rally, even within reach of general (in case the general was not its rider), and cannot even test for insane courage.

However, it may be charged by a random mover, which does not cause any charge reaction; in that case, IMO, it would autorally and fight, and in case of a win, it would remain rallied.
Also, spell Light #3, Light of Battle, would autorally it. A Light sorceress or a River of Light could have this spell.
Finally, a BWS would give it +1Ld, which would remove the Ld autofail and allow using General's Ld or rallying on a double 1.

Besides that, remember that a COB having joined a unit would use the unit's best Ld. Unfortunately, if it is already fleeing, there's no way to have it join anything.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Liquidedust
Highborn
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Liquidedust »

Calisson wrote:However, it may be charged by a random mover, which does not cause any charge reaction; in that case, IMO, it would autorally and fight, and in case of a win, it would remain rallied.


Uhmm not so sure about the autorally thing, I believe it would be destroyed on the spot (in the same manner as an overrun or pursuit will destroy a fleeing unit if you come into contact with them during these instances).

My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0
User avatar
Thraundil
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Location: The Depths of Despair

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Thraundil »

Yeah... If a random movement guy slams into a fleeing unit, the unit is immediately removed as a casualty...

But yeah it is indeed a conundrum. Here's a funny idea. Lone Cauldron has lost its death hag but is still frenzied. It MUST charge :P

Best bet is to keep the cauldron where its probably meant to be - inside a unit. As long as one unit member is alive, you get at least LD8...
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.
User avatar
Liquidedust
Highborn
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Liquidedust »

Thraundil wrote:Yeah... If a random movement guy slams into a fleeing unit, the unit is immediately removed as a casualty...

But yeah it is indeed a conundrum. Here's a funny idea. Lone Cauldron has lost its death hag but is still frenzied. It MUST charge :P

Best bet is to keep the cauldron where its probably meant to be - inside a unit. As long as one unit member is alive, you get at least LD8...


Treason Of Tzeentch is another woop-de-effing-doo to us with a cauldron unit, joined to a unit or otherwise.

My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0
Eldarwonderland
Warrior
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:20 pm

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Eldarwonderland »

What a problem we have :)

If only that stegadon hadn't tempted me to charge out of my BG unit and smash it to pulp with a certain overrun into the Cold Ones we'd never have got to this point.

Good fun though watching Hellebron in action for the first time.
Avatars of War: ordered vestals in March for April delivery, finally arrived Dec 15 2014
User avatar
Thraundil
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Location: The Depths of Despair

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Thraundil »

Liquidedust wrote:
Thraundil wrote:Yeah... If a random movement guy slams into a fleeing unit, the unit is immediately removed as a casualty...

But yeah it is indeed a conundrum. Here's a funny idea. Lone Cauldron has lost its death hag but is still frenzied. It MUST charge :P

Best bet is to keep the cauldron where its probably meant to be - inside a unit. As long as one unit member is alive, you get at least LD8...


Treason Of Tzeentch is another woop-de-effing-doo to us with a cauldron unit, joined to a unit or otherwise.


Could be worse. The lowest leadership value in the unit is the witch elves at LD8... The cauldron has no leadership value, remember. - is not a number, so cannot have a value. The reroll is a bugger, for sure, but if you're against warriors or daemons the good part is that often they will not want to flee, which means frenzy charge baits shouldnt be such a big deal anyway.
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.
User avatar
Lhel
Slave (off the Altar)
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:47 pm

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Lhel »

Since we're talking about curious things... What's up with a "mount" or essentially an object even needing to take a leadership test? It's like asking a bike to take a leadership test after the rider went bonkers and wanted to play chicken with that semi-trailer.... It might be broken, but I doubt the bike would give a damn about the rider...

Only "logical" reasoning I can think of for the chariot to flee like a bat of of the abyss is that the other hags would like to get their cauldron back... Not needing to order a new one on e-bay all the time! They could have built in some auto-recall or something on the cauldrons... Heck if I know the mind of those crazy women!
Last edited by Lhel on Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Thraundil
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Location: The Depths of Despair

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Thraundil »

Lhel wrote:Since we're talking about curious things... What's up with a "mount" or essentially an object even needing to take a leadership test? It's like asking a bike to take a leadership test after the rider went bonkers and wanted to play chicken with that semi-trailer.... It might be broken, but I doubt the bike would give a damn about the rider...

Only "logical" reasoning I can think of for the chariot to flee like a bat of of the abyss is that the other hags would like to get their caldron back... Not needing to order a new one on e-bay all the time!


Well the cauldron has 2 witch elf crew-girls. Whom apparently have no leadership in spite of being Khaines chosen :P
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.
User avatar
Liquidedust
Highborn
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Liquidedust »

Thraundil wrote:
Liquidedust wrote:
Thraundil wrote:Yeah... If a random movement guy slams into a fleeing unit, the unit is immediately removed as a casualty...

But yeah it is indeed a conundrum. Here's a funny idea. Lone Cauldron has lost its death hag but is still frenzied. It MUST charge :P

Best bet is to keep the cauldron where its probably meant to be - inside a unit. As long as one unit member is alive, you get at least LD8...


Treason Of Tzeentch is another woop-de-effing-doo to us with a cauldron unit, joined to a unit or otherwise.


Could be worse. The lowest leadership value in the unit is the witch elves at LD8... The cauldron has no leadership value, remember. - is not a number, so cannot have a value. The reroll is a bugger, for sure, but if you're against warriors or daemons the good part is that often they will not want to flee, which means frenzy charge baits shouldnt be such a big deal anyway.


As has been pointed out to you elsewhere the attendants actually have a leadership value, - is equal to 0 in game terms ;)

My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0
Vulcan
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:13 am

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Vulcan »

Which is silly, given that your typical Witch is Ld 8....
User avatar
Dyvim tvar
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Posts: 8372
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Contact:

Re: Cauldron after death of Hellebron

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Vulcan wrote:Which is silly, given that your typical Witch is Ld 8....


Indeed it is silly.

Among friends I would house-rule the Cauldron to have Ld 8 on death of the character. But in a competitive environment you generally have to live with the written stat line.
Truly These are the End Times ...
Post Reply