Better than Swedish???

[Dyvim tvar]

So I've been stuck at home today since my wife is working and somebody needs to watch the 8-year old. I maybe should have spent the afternoon interacting with my daughter more (or maybe painting), but I've been fixated on the Swedish Comp system and how it both intrigues me and ultimately disappoints me.

I think some of the general ideas behind the Swede Comp system are laudable (if you want to play in a comped environment), but I don't like the way it's executed. There are some really big disparities between how similar units are treated across different armies that I don't think are justified in actual practice, and some armies just get off way too light. In particular, in the Swede Comp events I've been to, I have invariably seen Warriors of Chaos armies that are far from soft but that have high Swede Comp scores.

Bottom line, I thought I could do better.

I spent this afternoon working on a system that would work in a similar fashion to Swede Comp, generating a score somewhere between 0 and 20 to rate the relative strength of different armies. I think the biggest failing of the Swede system is that it is tries to be too army-specific, and I see a lot of what I think are unjustified disparities creep in as a result. So, in in contrast to the Swede system, most of the adjustments in my system are generally applicable to all armies (penalties for lots of war machines, number of fast cav units, etc.; bonuses for low levels of magic and shooting, etc.).

I would love some feedback. Here's a Dropbox link to a PDF of the system called (for lack of a better title) "Better Than Swedish". By the way, I don't really mean to cause offense and so I hope nobody takes this the wrong way.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ciipcrnl5inj230/Better%20Than%20Swedish.pdf?dl=0

If you have the chance, please:

1 - Read the document and provide feedback on the general approach of the system.

2 - Apply it to an army list you've run recently and let me know: (a) the point size and race of the army; (b) on a totally subjective scale of 0-20 (with 0 being most competitive and 20 totally non-competitive) and apart from any existing comp system, how hard you consider the list to be; (c) the score you get under the "Better Than Swedish" system; and (d) the score of the list under the current version of Swede Comp if you know it.

[Amboadine]

Interesting first scan through. Will spend the evening looking into it with more detail and trying to run a list through.

[T.D.]

Thanks Dyvim,

You've obviously put a lot of thought into this. I'm not the best person to comment because I play neither tournaments or comp, but having d/l and read it through it looks to me to be a fair and balanced system.

Interested to read our tourney players thoughts on the matter...

[Watchmaster]

Just had time to skim over; really like the way it's shaping up. I agree that the Swedish system definitely has some major inconsistencies in terms of penalizing certain armies over others. Thanks for all the thought and work that's going into this!

A few minor things that stood out- keep in mind this is my very subjective opinion, and I may not be reading the system accurately:

-HE bolt throwers are rare choices and count as one full war machine. DE version is special, is cost/function identical, and evidently counts as 1/2?
-Even the reduced comp on the TK chariots seems excessive. I've seen very few chariot based TK lists in 8th, and they struggled in a soft environment.
-Counting Dragon Ogres as MC is harsh... I'll face them any day over demigriff/mournfang/crusher/etc. They're painfully overpriced.
-VC scream list looks to get off really easy.

Maybe it's just my meta here, but that's what stood out after a quick read. I'd love to play test this as it develops, since comp is getting popular here. Thanks again for doing this.

[Red...]

It looked like a positive system to me, but I know next to nothing about comp systems.
I was surprised to see High Elf handmaidens going unpenalized - those "ladies" are very OP in my opinion (S4 30" bows, BS5, WS5, AP versus all evil armies, and a bunch of other perks), particularly once you throw the "lady" special character in with them (she gives them quick to fire, if I recall rightly, making them hard to neutralize in close combat, as you get shot to ribbons by their stand and shoot reaction). But then that's just my opinion, which is I guess where comp systems always fall down: the value that one player places upon a unit/monster/character/chariot/warmachine/etc may be completely different to the value that another person does.

[Dyvim tvar]

-HE bolt throwers are rare choices and count as one full war machine. DE version is special, is cost/function identical, and evidently counts as 1/2?
-Even the reduced comp on the TK chariots seems excessive. I've seen very few chariot based TK lists in 8th, and they struggled in a soft environment.
-Counting Dragon Ogres as MC is harsh... I'll face them any day over demigriff/mournfang/crusher/etc. They're painfully overpriced.
-VC scream list looks to get off really easy.

Thanks for the feedback.

1) DE bolt throwers were supposed to be treated the same as HE. That was a simple oversight and I have now fixed it.

2) I think you're right regarding the TK chariots. If they really spam them it can be nasty, but the penalty here kicks in too quickly. More appropriate might be -1 for each 5 Skeleton Chariots after the first 5. So 5 is no penalty, 6-10 is -1, etc.

3) I've seen some nasty WoC army that spam Dragon Ogres as well as Skullcrushers. I think they should still count as MC, but looking at MC in general, I think I am hitting them too hard. I think a single, small (4 or less) unit of MC should not be immediately penalized.

I'm thinking the general restriction for them might be better as follows:

• -1 – Each Monstrous Cavalry unit > 1
• -1 – Each 4 Monstrous Cavalry models in a unit >4 (round up)

Still on the subject of MC, I think that Terradons and Ripperdactyls get hit too hard because they are potentially subject to multiple penalties (skirmishers, flyers, MC).

I am thinking that there should be a penalty for multiple monsters (defined as a unit that has the Thunderstomp! ability).

Also, after running several armies through the system, there needs to be a higher starting number -- it's too easy to get to zero.

I was surprised to see High Elf handmaidens going unpenalized - those "ladies" are very OP in my opinion (S4 30" bows, BS5, WS5, AP versus all evil armies, and a bunch of other perks), particularly once you throw the "lady" special character in with them (she gives them quick to fire, if I recall rightly, making them hard to neutralize in close combat, as you get shot to ribbons by their stand and shoot reaction).

On their own, the Sisters of Avelorn are good troops, but highly priced and so potentially subject to penalties based unit points cost. I agree that the combo of Handmaiden and unit of Sisters of Avelorn should be subject to an additional penalty (probably only for a unit of 15 of more)

But then that's just my opinion, which is I guess where comp systems always fall down: the value that one player places upon a unit/monster/character/chariot/warmachine/etc may be completely different to the value that another person does.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion though and if you've been playing the game for a while yours is probably as valid and valuable as anyone's.

[Thraundil]

This actually looks pretty decent. Consider specifying whether a runesmith counts as a wizard, or all dwarf armies start with a basic +4

Also, consider putting a cost on wild rider units (particularly bigger wild rider units). As it stands now, wood elves could fill their special with wild riders for free.

I might also put something on plague drones from daemons. Personal experience, but those things are pretty badass...

And warriors of chaos nurgle chariots pass through unpriced, as does characters with mark of nurgle. Intentional? I've played against nurgle exalted heroes, they are pretty ridiculous, and with the heavy price on 3+ wards, it seems like a no-brainer to take 2 exalted heroes of nurgle for cheaps.

Just the things that spring to mind.

[Dyvim tvar]

1) Good point about the Dwarfs. I would say they don't count as wizards and that should be specified.

2) I thought about singling out Wild Riders. But I decided not to since they are Fast Cavalry, and so they can contribute to a penalty for having lots more than 2 flying/fast cav units in the same army. Given things like Warhawk Riders, Eagles, and Glade Riders are also in the army, it's pretty likely that penalty will be in effect.

3) Plague Drones can actually get hit really hard under this system already since they are Skirmishers, Flyers, and Monstrous Cavalry and the penalties are cumulative. An army with 2 units of Screamers and 2 units of Plague Drones would get hit pretty hard for it and I think appropriately so (on the flipside Terradons and Ripperdactyls probably get overpenalized for being in all these categories an I probably should fix that).

4) Nurgle Mark is something I really struggled with. I agree it's powerful, but didn't want to overpenalize by putting a -1 for every Nurgle mark in an army which would quickly add up. Maybe the first character mark and first chariot mark are no penalty and they only kick in starting with the second.