Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Calisson »

:lol:

Let's hire a Fleetmaster rather than Kouran! :P
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Haagrum »

I've tried before to convince people about the Fleetmaster... it did not end well. :burns: :mrgreen:

Calisson wrote:
Haagrum wrote:Applying the reasoning advanced by some, a unit ceases to be identifiable as a particular unit when it is joined by one or more characters.
Who did ever say anything like that?
As of myself, I wrote clearly that inside a combined unit, the BG part is still identifiable as a unit of BG.


Respectfully, Calisson, my interpretation was that you did say exactly that, by insisting that a "combined unit" could not be considered to have the same nature as any of its components. Since a "combined unit" is treated as one unit for rules purposes except as noted, the inference follows that it would not be a unit of characters or a unit of Black Guard, but something else (as Taijushue explains).

Calisson wrote:With such absurdity, in your example 1, you would make a dragon immune to tunnel dangers because his rider would have joined Tunnel Fighters? Really?


This is an entirely disingenuous argument, since monsters can't join units.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Calisson »

Too bad for the Fleetmaster. :( A nice attempt indeed.

-=-=-

So much for my belief that my explanations would be clear. :oops:
Well, I should have known better that GW concept of combined units with units inside was not an intuitive concept. :o_O:

-=-=-

You're absolutely right for ridden dragons. My mistake. And Kadon dragons are not ridden so I cannot pretend it was what I meant.
Nevertheles, I hope that you find no longer difficulties with the counter-examples you found:
- in a combined unit, the "Tunnel Fighter" unit would not grant its special properties to a character having joined it, as special rules do not extend to characters;
- in a combined unit, the Skeleton Warriors would allow Heinrich Kemmler's Chaos Tomb Blade to raise more models.
- I don't know the specific rule of Hammerers which becomes Unbreakable if joined by a particular character. Hopefully it is written like for Kouran.
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Re: The End Times are here!

Post by Dalamar »

Calisson wrote:=> Yes, by RAW.
Kouran's "The Right Hand Of Darkness" rule states "If Kouran Darkhand is in a unit of Black Guard, he and all models in that unit have the Unbreakable special rule."
In the combined unit, two components get the Unbreakable special rule:
- "he", which refers to "Kouran Darkhand";
- and "that unit", which refers to "a unit of Black Guard".


I'm going to rules lawyer right back atcha Calisson because i think you just exposed a flaw in your logic.

If joining a character to a unit makes it a combined unit, then joining Kouran to Black Guard also makes it a combined unit, meaning the condition for Kouran's rule to take place (being in a unit of black guard) is impossible to achieve because as soon as he joins the unit, they stop being a unit of black guard (though each model individually is still a singular black guard) and become a combined unit.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Calisson »

No, Dalamar.
Read p.99, "Unusual shooting attacks", second paragraph: "... and he is in a unit of at least 5 R&F models... and he is of the same troop type as the unit..."
Clearly, he is "in" the unit, and "the unit", having a troop type, refers to a unit defined in a single army book entry.

Strange as it is, the character is defined to have joined a unit, to be part of that unit, to be in a unit,
but still, the said unit keeps being a unit distinct from the character.
That makes matters nothing easier to understand, but so it is, as I have shown with quotes.


Dalamar wrote:as soon as he joins the unit, they stop being a unit of black guard (though each model individually is still a singular black guard) and become a combined unit.
No, this is written nowhere.
The BG unit never stops to be a BG unit: they remain a BG unit, without the character, inside the combined unit.
The BG unit never becomes a combined unit: it is only when considered together with the character that the whole becomes a combined unit (first sentence of p.99).
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Dalamar »

So when Kouran joins the Black Guard, he (Kouran) and any other models in that unit (Black guard plus all characters) become unbreakable.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by dms505 »

Would it matter if the other character were Unbreakable? If the unit won't flee then a character model won't flee out of it since there aren't any rules for that to happen. Or has this just come to to arguing language and horrible rules writing of GW at this point?
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Dalamar »

It would, because characters that are not unbreakable themselves cant join unbreakable units.

The point is actually moot if Kouran joins the Black Guard first - no other characters van join that unit afterwards. But any characters that were with the Black Guard before Kouran joined are not strangely suddenly expelled, and neither is Kouran prevented from joining the unit if there are other characters in it.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by dms505 »

Right D, joining beforehand was my assumption.

You could also move him out of the unit, move other characters in, then move him back in next turn but that's a lot of wasting time unless you really want to save those points.
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Re: The End Times are here!

Post by Calisson »

Dalamar wrote:So when Kouran joins the Black Guard, he (Kouran) and any other models in that unit (Black guard plus all characters) become unbreakable.
AB, in Kouran's "The Right Hand Of Darkness" rule wrote:If Kouran Darkhand is in a unit of Black Guard, he and all models in that unit have the Unbreakable special rule.
The difficulty I have with your interpretation, as opposed to the AB, is you change the unit's composition in the course of the sentence, while the AB does not.
In the first part of the sentence, the unit is a unit of BG, both for you and for the AB.
In the last part of the sentence, the AB says "that unit", while you suddenly add all characters to BG.

To be really consistent, you should exclude all other characters from the last part of the sentence, because in the first part of the sentence, they were not considered BG.
However, excluding these characters make them not unbreakable, and the resulting combined unit is not unbreakable.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Dalamar »

The resulted combined unit would be an impossibility in the rules so either the game would implode, or characters that are not Kouran would have to be forcefully ejected from the unit.

You see characters in a unit as separate entities but they really aren't. As long as they're with the unit, they count among that unit's models.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Calisson »

@ Dalamar
In your example of 20 BG + 12 characters + Kouran,
assuming that the BG unit would become unbreakable, and
knowing that the 12 characters other than Kouran are not unbreakable naturally,
how would you implement BRB p.78 left column last sentence?
"Characters that are not themselves unbreakable are not permitted to join units that are (even if a character was to become temporarily Unbreakable for some reason, because of a spell or suchlike)."
RAI seems very clear to me.

Dalamar wrote:The resulted combined unit would be an impossibility in the rules so either the game would implode, or characters that are not Kouran would have to be forcefully ejected from the unit.
With my interpretation, there is no problem, nobody is unbreakable in the first place.

Dalamar wrote:You see characters in a unit as separate entities but they really aren't. As long as they're with the unit, they count among that unit's models.
You keep mingling the combined unit and the single AB entry unit which is part of it.
As a result, you state flatly that a unit of 20 BG is the same unit than 20 BG + 12 characters. :o_O:


By the way, I apreciate a lot the gentlemen's tone of this conversation! :)
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Vulcan »

Much ado about nothing.

If you're taking a unit of Black Guard plus characters into a combat, you'd better be planning to WIN that combat. It's too expensive to throw away in a combat you're expecting to LOSE.

And given the damage Black Guard plus characters can put out, if you loose that combat you've been effectively wiped out... and it would have been better to delay that unit with chaff instead of throwing away hundreds of points of characters and THE most expensive infantry we have.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by MexicanNinja »

Holy moly there's a lot of discussion going on about this right now.

Here's what I've done in the past:

Helebrone joins blackguard
Master A joins blackguard
Master B joins blackguard
Kouran joins blackguard

Blackguard is scary deathstar and rapes face

I took that to a tournament here in the Pacific Northwest. There were participants from Washington and Canada at the event as well. Not a single person who I played said I was in the wrong or performing an illegal action by placing all characters in the unit prior to placing Kouran in the unit.

The rule is pretty flippin clear. The unit is just a unit with the Stubborn special rule. In my example above, if I place the first three characters in the unit of blackguard first they are just in a Stubborn unit. Once I add Kouran to the unit, the "he and ALL models in the unit are unbreakable". So, yes, you can totally place kouran in a unit of blackguard AFTER you have placed your other characters in the unit and they all have unbreakable while in the unit of blackguard and while kouran is alive.

The rules for unbreakable state that characters who are themselves not unbreakable may not join a unit who has the unbreakable rule. The unit of blackguard isn't considered unbreakable until kouran joins the unit. At the point in time when kouran joins the unit, he and ALL models in the unit gain unbreakable. There is nothing illegal nor does it break any rules by placing characters in a unit of blackguard PRIOR to having kouran join the unit of blackguard.

Again, I play in pretty big warhammer community and not a single person has said what I am doing is an illegal play.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Red... »

Again, I play in pretty big warhammer community and not a single person has said what I am doing is an illegal play.

Consensus does not equal rules. One person can be wrong, so can billions.
The rule is pretty flippin clear.

Evidently not, see above arguments.
if I place the first three characters in the unit of blackguard first they are just in a Stubborn unit. Once I add Kouran to the unit, the "he and ALL models in the unit are unbreakable"

Yes, but the presence of those characters mean that the unit is a combined unit, not a unit of blackguard anymore (or so the argument runs). Consequently, when Kouran joins this combined unit, his special rule would not trigger.
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Try to use more pleasant word choices.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Calisson »

I do not dispute that the BG Death Star is a common interpretation of Kouran's rule.
I do dispute that it is RAW, and even RAI.

-=-=-

RAW:
BRB p.99 wrote:"Whilst a character is part of a unit <4>, both he and the unit <2> (including any other characters that have joined the unit <1>) are treated as a single combined unit <3>..."

That sentence has four times the word "unit".

Initially:
{the unit <1>} = {the original unit with no characters inside}; the unit <1> is a pure army book entry.

Then we added some characters:
{the unit <1> + any other characters} = {the unit <2> (including any other characters}; in case there is another character, the unit <2> is no longer a pure AB entry.

Now, we're adding one more character:
{"he" + the unit <2>} = a single {combined unit <3>}

How do we call these units? There is an ambiguity for a unit <4>.
It is referred as "the unit" <2> including other characters,
and also "the unit" <1> without characters.
In addition, because the new character is "part of" it, it is necessarily also the combined unit <3>.
However, units <1>, <2> and <3> are certainly different.
This sentence shows that GW gives the same name to three different groups of models.
Having the same name does not make all these units the same thing.
Everyone is forgiven to be confused. :o_O:

MexicanNinja wrote:Hellebron joins blackguard => here, a pure unit of BG.
Master A joins blackguard => here, the name "BG" is short for {BG+H}
Master B joins blackguard => here, the name "BG" is short for {BG+H+A}
Kouran joins blackguard => here, the name "BG" is short for {BG+H+A+B}

So the question in this thread is:
can we consider that because the unit joined by Kouran, which is actually {BG+H+A+B}, is nicknamed "a unit of BG" by MexicanNinja, it does trigger Kouran's rule?
Some say yes, some say no.

-=-=-

RAI:
Calisson wrote:"Characters that are not themselves unbreakable are not permitted to join units that are (even if a character was to become temporarily Unbreakable for some reason, because of a spell or suchlike)."
RAI seems very clear to me.
GW took specifically care to avoid unbreakable death stars in the BRB rules.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Dalamar »

I think the crux lies in an answer to a question "what can change the nature of a unit?"

To me, a unit of BG will always be a unit of BG plus potential attachments.

Calisson believes that the unic ceases to be a unit of BG and becomes a less defined "combined unit" which would negate any and all special rules affecting the units of BG.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Calisson »

Well summarized.
Indeed, pushing to the extreme, I find hard to define as "a unit of BG" the following:
1 BG + Malekith + Morathi on Sulephet + Hellebron + Malus on Spite + Shadowblade + Lokhir + Tullaris + one Lvl4 + one assassin + Master BSB on pegasus + DH + shrine.
where 1 BG is the ultimate survivor of a unit of 10 BG. If that unit had no command group, that survivor would conveniently leave the first rank of... the unit.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Haagrum »

Dalamar wrote:I think the crux lies in an answer to a question "what can change the nature of a unit?"

To me, a unit of BG will always be a unit of BG plus potential attachments.

Calisson believes that the unic ceases to be a unit of BG and becomes a less defined "combined unit" which would negate any and all special rules affecting the units of BG.


In the absence of a clear agreement, it's something to be discussed with one's opponents before a game (or the TO before the tournament).

With apologies to the Nameless One of Planescape: Torment... I think this sums it up (note: no offence is intended to anyone, this is just for laughs):

"If there is anything I have learned in my travels across these forums, it is that many things may change the nature of a unit. Whether adding characters, or great weapons, or Eternal Hatred or Fear-causing items - whatever you believe can change the nature of a unit, can. I’ve seen belief cause Ethereal units to crumble in combat, allow chariots to survive Dangerous Terrain rolls, and turn a Death Hag's opponents half-circle. The entire gaming system has been constructed from belief. Belief damned a player, whose heart clung to the hope that the Fleetmaster was useful when he was not. Once, it made a unit of Black Guard seek Unbreakability and achieve it. And it has made a number of posters think that there is nothing more important than being right on the Internet."
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by T.D. »

This is the sort of question that shows the need for a responsive vendor i.e. GW
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Calisson »

Haagrum wrote:And it has made a number of posters think that there is nothing more important than being right on the Internet."
You are right, of course! ;) :lol:

See also Enter the era of the Pigeon Council
I was very happy to have the last word.
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Re: Can Kouran make other characters unbreakable?

Post by Haagrum »

Nicely put, Calisson. The Pigeon Council story is excellent.
"The wrath of a good man is not to be feared. They have too many rules."

"Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good time to find out why I have so many."
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