Ironcurse Icon

[Draecarion]

Hi, I just have a few questions regarding the Ironcurse Icon:

1. Is the ward save of the Ironcurse Icon added to already existing ward saves? E.g. would warlocks have a 3++ against warmachine weapons?
2. Does the Ironcurse Icon help against gyrocopters, because they use warmachine weapons, even though they aren't warmachines?

[Amboadine]

Hi, I just have a few questions regarding the Ironcurse Icon:

1. Is the ward save of the Ironcurse Icon added to already existing ward saves? E.g. would warlocks have a 3++ against warmachine weapons?
2. Does the Ironcurse Icon help against gyrocopters, because they use warmachine weapons, even though they aren't warmachines?

This is where it all goes wrong usually but.

1 - No, MR stacks on wards for magic but taking additional wards does not help, you would use the best available ward save. (Unless you have Tzeentch characters if I remember correctly)

2 - This is where it seems to get complicated. It would depend on how the gyrocopter rules are worded, as I don't have the books with me. You could make an argument that the Gryo is not a war machine troop type, so therefore doesn't work. However the counter argument could be made for purely the weapons that uses the ' warmachine' rules would gain the save. In the case of a gyrobomber this would mean you get a save against bombs but not the gun.

I am sure one of our resident rules experts with be able to break it down further.

[Thraundil]

Amboadine is correct with regards to question number 1. Having a 4+ ward and a 6+ ward against war machines does not give you a 3+ ward save against war machines, just as he outlined very nicely with the MR + ward save vs magic example which is a special exempt. Another two exceptions is the mark of tzeentch from the warrior book which "improves the ward save of the bearer by 1 down to a maximum of 3+", and the high elf high magic lore attribute which does, well, the exact same thing (though stacking). Example: an exhalted hero of tzeentch with the ironcurse icon has a 5+ ward against war machines.

With regards to the second point, let us examine the rules more closely. Key points are italic for emphasis.

Ironcurse Icon: The character (and any unit he is with) gain a 6+ ward save against war machine weapons

So the key line here is war machine weapons. That is, for example, in close combat with a war machine (i.e. its crew) you would NOT get the 6+ ward save. However, what is a war machine weapon? Obviously, anything that has troop type war machine, and shoots its weapon, is a war machine. Bolt throwers, stone throwers, trebutchets, cannons and doom divers, steam tank cannons and flamer templates, flame cannons, organ guns, all that jazz. But some special cases exist.

An Ironblaster from the Ogre Kingdoms has troop type: chariot. For those of you unfamiliar with this total joke of a unit, its a chariot with a bloody cannon mounted on top of it (I apologise for bias here... But impact hits, move and fire, 3+ armor save and S10 grape shot on a cannon, who came up with this?!?). Anyways, moving on. The cannon is fired "in the same way as a normal cannon, using the profile and special rules that follow". Then follows its rules. Nowhere is it mentioned whether the cannon is a war machine weapon. However, the officla OK F.A.Q. states that you can use the ward save provided by the ironcurse icon against the attacks of the ironblaster cannon (but not its impact hits and so on). The same is the case with a gnoblar scraplauncher (a fancy word for a pretty bad stone thrower).

So does that mean that units that function just like war machines, but come with a different troop type "for fluff reasons", can be viewed as war machines where the ironcurse icon is concerned? No. Hellcannons are troop type: monster, fires like a stone thrower, but according to official GW F.A.Q. there is no ruling on the ironcurse icon. Which means no, you cant use it against the hellcannon. The ETC have however ruled that you CAN use the ironcurse icon vs hellcannon wounds, since it makes sense. Where does it end!!! This is similar for the skullcannon out of the daemons of chaos book: not a war machine. Supposedly. It just follows all the rules for one when it comes to shooting. Again, ETC FAQ remedies this, I believe.

But anyway. Dwarf gyrocopters. Troop type: unique. Their weapons do not say anything about war machines. And I do not have the dwarf armybook errata on hand at the moment so I would say: no ward save.

[Cihan]

Ironcurse Icon Ward:
Ward saves dont improve (unless explicitly said so).

War Machine Weapons:
Im with Thraundil on this. Altough it really doesnt make sense since it clearly is a war machine weapon, you cannot take the ward save because "It makes sense" is not a rule you can refer to . I believe this also counts for all that Lizardmen stuff.

[Red...]

Yup, we've had this conversation before. A warmachine weapon is a specific thing, and is not merely the weapons possessed by a warmachine. Ergo, you get ward saves against "warmachine weapons" but not against weapons possessed by a warmachine. So, in a nutshell, no, you don't get a ward versus Dwarf Gyrocopters, well, RAW anyway.

[Draecarion]

Thanks for the answers!

Too bad. Well, I expected as much. Dwarf gunfire is giving me a headache, so I had hoped this could alleviate some of the pain :-D