Anti-sorcerer effects on Warlocks

[Calisson]

Two questions from Warhammer-Empire:

1. Casualties
Let us assume, an Ogre Bruiser with the Greedy Fist is only in btb with one (R&F) Doomfire Warlock, member of a larger unit.
The Greedy Fist affects Wizards, and that Warlock will therefore to be nominated as the target, because "If the unit is targeted by a rule that affects a wizard, your opponent must choose one Master of Warlocks or Doomfire Warlock as target" (DE AB).
The Ogre causes 3 unsaved wounds.
Normally, if you attack a R&F model in CC and cause three wounds, three R&F models die.
Do Dark Elves players agree that 3 Warlocks are killed?

2. Spell removal.
What happens to a unit of Warlocks in case of spell removal?
Examples for Loss of Spells/Wizard levels: Rune of Spellbreaking - Greedy Fist - Spellthieving Sword.
Would this affect the whole unit? If not, this would basically provide immunity to these and similar effects, as the unit itself retains the Wizard level and the spells.

Thoughts?

[Red...]

1. No, just the one warlock, because "If the unit is targeted by a rule that affects a wizard, your opponent must choose one Master of Warlocks or Doomfire Warlock as target" (DE AB).
2. Entire unit loses the spell. If I recall correctly (I don't have the book with me) the entire unit counts as a level X wizard, not multiple different wizards. Consequently, when the wizard loses a spell, they all lose it.

My fairly baseline interpretation anyway. I'm sure the usual rules lawyer suspects can get into a frenzy feeding session over this one!

[Daeron]

Raw could be argued for both to ever affect only one warlock. They are not immune... Just don't see them as regular wizards in the first place. Imagine the spellthieving sword against a 10 big Warlock unit. Would it make sense they would cease to know any spell after losing two models? Would it make sense to stab one dude, and have the other 9 forget a spell because of it?
The very Warlock rule that states that the unit is considered a Wizard is the very same rule that explicitly states such effects are resolved on a single Warlock in the unit.

While this is not explicitly stated so in the rules, the rules effectively block out the possibility of losing spells on the unit. All effects are resolved on a single model and the miscast table is ignored.
*shrug* how much more do you need it to be spelled out?


That said... In my own club I would rule that the spellbreaking rune would indeed affect the entire unit for fun's sake. I don't think that the Warlocks need rule lawyer love, whereas the spellthieving effects could use a little bit of it

[Thraundil]

1. No, just the one warlock, because "If the unit is targeted by a rule that affects a wizard, your opponent must choose one Master of Warlocks or Doomfire Warlock as target" (DE AB).
2. Entire unit loses the spell. If I recall correctly (I don't have the book with me) the entire unit counts as a level X wizard, not multiple different wizards. Consequently, when the wizard loses a spell, they all lose it.

My fairly baseline interpretation anyway. I'm sure the usual rules lawyer suspects can get into a frenzy feeding session over this one!

I actually think this is exactly on.
1. As it says in the DE AB, you only target one model. Thats all there is to it. Bam.
2. Entire unit loses the spell, since the entire unit is a single lvl 2 wizard.

[Calisson]

Strange.
I had an opposite analysis.
Where did I fail?

1. Casualties
Let us assume, an Ogre Bruiser with the Greedy Fist is only in btb with one (R&F) Doomfire Warlock, member of a larger unit.
The Greedy Fist affects Wizards, and that Warlock will therefore to be nominated as the target, because "If the unit is targeted by a rule that affects a wizard, your opponent must choose one Master of Warlocks or Doomfire Warlock as target" (DE AB).
The Ogre causes 3 unsaved wounds.
Normally, if you attack a R&F model in CC and cause three wounds, three R&F models die.

Let's see BRB p.48 sq.
The Ogre can only strike the single Warlock he is in contact with - nominated as a Wizard.
All hits/wounds/saves/ward saves are made against that single model; the Greedy Fist special effect works. 3 unsaved wounds are made.
BRB p.51: "Casualties are removed from the rear rank...
It can happen that a model causes more casualties than it has enemies in base contact. The excess casualties are removed as normal from the unit as a whole, representing the attackers fighting over the fallen foes." This would lead to understand that 3 Warlock die.

The tricky sentence is: "warriors in the ranks behind will step forwards to fill any gaps that appear."
A DE player might object that those "warriors in the ranks behind" were not designated as Wizards and therefore are immune to the special effects.
I would consider that this is true, but it is not relevant. 3 casualties were made against a model designated as Wizard. The unit must lose 3 models. These 3 models are removed from the rear, even if it was three time a model in the front which was hit. You do not "go back" to see whether they were wizards or not.


2. Spell removal.
What happens to a unit of Warlocks in case of spell removal?
Examples for Loss of Spells/Wizard levels: Rune of Spellbreaking - Greedy Fist - Spellthieving Sword.
Would this affect the whole unit? If not, this would basically provide immunity to these and similar effects, as the unit itself retains the Wizard level and the spells.

Here, RAW tells that a single Warlock loses a single spell. Obviously the next one to be killed will be that one, which makes basically the whole unit immune to such effects - just like miscasts!

[marcopollo]

I have started an OK army and have been contributing to their forum. I had seen this question raised about this and they conclude exactly what callison has indicated above. As long as there is one model not hit by the greedy fist, then the unit is still a wizard with their appropriate spells/levels.

What is interesting is the use of death magic and the greedy fist. About 2 - 3 years ago, a tactic was developed whereby spells that hit wizards also stripped their magic levels. This was a common thing at that time. So you saw a bunch of lists with this combo.

But it has since been errata'd to only include hit from close combat. So, if you have an OK player who does this; slap him upside the head.

[Daeron]

Hah.. And there I thought my interpretation was obvious. I guess it's not, then
I quite like your interpretation Calisson. In a weird way, it makes a lot of sense.