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Tournament Questions... Really?!? 
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Warrior

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:02 pm
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Hi all, yesterday I have done a practise for a tournament that I ll have in june. I had some questions on the rules and I had a lot of discussion with my opponent that I would like you to help me through. All these questions are for a non end of times tournament:
Morathi:
1. Can she join a unit? Pegasus is a monstrous beast so I would assume yes
2. Can she only join cavalry or infantry as well?
3. Can she join and leave unit without any problem (literally fly to one to another at every movement phase)?
4. If her unit is charged on a flank, can she react with a flee? The idea here is that she is in the front rank and while the unit keep the enemy quiet she flies away safe. I think this is a no.
5. Let’s assume she is in a unit of Dark riders: how much do they move? 8 for the Pegasus or 9 for the horse (Pegasus fly 10). Are they still fast Cav?
6. Same example as before: what is the WS of the unit 4+? And against magic, 2+?

Black Dragon:
1. If the dreadlord on top has a ward safe, does all the unit get the ward safe? E.g. if he is wearing a twilight, does the dragon get 3+ against magic and shooting?
2. Does the dreadlord take the bonus for the scaly skin of the dragon?
3. If a wizard is on the dragon, can she decide not to fight in a close combat? If yes, can the opponent still decide to strike her?

General questions:
1. Is it true that units does not block line of sights anymore? If you shoot at someone behind another unit you get a -2 to hit? Only terrain (e.g. forests, hills, impassable terrain etc.) stop the line of sights?
2. If a unit is granted additional movement from a spell (he was using walking between worlds) can he charge? I do not think so as it is remaining sub movement phase so no charge. Can you help me where it says this on the rulebook?
3. If I decide to flee as a charge reaction, I should roll 2 (or 3) dices and then add my movement or only the dices? I think movement as well but my opponents says only the dices
4. If I have more than one character in a unit, can I declare more than one challenge?
5. If I am fighting on 2 ranks, can the second rank of cavalry hit with the horses/ cold one or not? Can you help me find where it says on the rulebook as well?
6. Single character (eg. Master of Pegasus): does he has 360 degree view? Does he still need to spend the whole movement phase to turn 180 degrees?
7. If you reform from a panic test, can you charge?
8. If you follow your enemy outside the table, can you come back the turn after or you still need to do any sort of test? When you come back, can you charge straight away?
9. If you overrun in another unit, do you need to fight the close combat straight away or in the next turn? I think straight away, my opponent said next turn. Can you help me find a page here as well?
10. When you overrun is it only straight line or there is a reasonable possibility to divert slightly? Let’s suppose there is a line of war machines, if I charge the first of them and I destroy the crew basically I can never overrun in another war machine as they do not have flanks and I need to charge it in the front, correct? Can you help me find a page as well?
11. If a war machine fail a panic test, simply doesn’t shoot in the next round or the crew is running away (and therefore they need to reform and go back to the machine before shooting again, likely 2 rounds)?

I know they are a lot, but because he will be in the tournament as well I do not want to be fooled up. Plus he was using High Elves, and we hate them!!!


Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:37 pm
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Warrior

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sorry a last question as well:
only direct magic needs line of sight, while hex and augmented do not need it? e.g. can morathi hide in a hole and still cast thousands of spells?


Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:38 pm
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I'm no pro, but here's my best guess:

Cicciuz wrote:
Morathi:
1. Can she join a unit? Pegasus is a monstrous beast so I would assume yes. Yes
2. Can she only join cavalry or infantry as well? Both. She comes on a 50mm, usually, so she can sit anywhere within the front rank of a cavalry unit. She can join an infantry unit on the side. Should your model be on a 40mm base, then it's the other way around.
3. Can she join and leave unit without any problem (literally fly to one to another at every movement phase)? Yes, but remember that joining a unit places movement restrictions on that unit (it may no longer move). So the target unit needs to be in place where you want them both to end. Also her total movement can not exceed her movement limit.
4. If her unit is charged on a flank, can she react with a flee? The idea here is that she is in the front rank and while the unit keep the enemy quiet she flies away safe. I think this is a no. Charge reaction is declared by the whole unit, so to have her flee, the whole unit needs to declare flee. She flees with the unit. You can not have her flee independently from the unit.
5. Let’s assume she is in a unit of Dark riders: how much do they move? 8 for the Pegasus or 9 for the horse (Pegasus fly 10). Are they still fast Cav? They are no longer Fast Cav and lose all benefits from those special rules (shooting, reforms etc). However, they can still march 18" like any regular unit (if not disrupted) and charge 9"+2d6 (with swiftstride).
6. Same example as before: what is the WS of the unit 4+? And against magic, 2+? Ward save does not carry over to the unit, so she does not give her ward save to the unit. However, magic resistance does carry over to the unit. Her MR is used for the entire unit.

Black Dragon:
1. If the dreadlord on top has a ward safe, does all the unit get the ward safe? E.g. if he is wearing a twilight, does the dragon get 3+ against magic and shooting? Nope.
2. Does the dreadlord take the bonus for the scaly skin of the dragon? No. But he does get a bonus for being mounted.
3. If a wizard is on the dragon, can she decide not to fight in a close combat? If yes, can the opponent still decide to strike her? Regular close combat attacks are not optional, as far as I know so she must attack. In any case, the opponent can attack her following the normal rules for attacking a character on a monster. You can not have her escape that fate. An interesting problem to watch out for, is her ASF. If she were to charge a unit, the champion could call a challenge which can not be denied. If her 1 attack kills the champ, the Dragon can no longer attack.

General questions:
1. Is it true that units does not block line of sights anymore? If you shoot at someone behind another unit you get a -2 to hit? Only terrain (e.g. forests, hills, impassable terrain etc.) stop the line of sights? True line of sight is used. So, sometimes a unit can be seen through the gaps in between a unit. It happens that players bring a laser pointer to test if a model has Line of Sight or not. Cover rules are valid if a unit is at least partially invisible to the shooter.
2. If a unit is granted additional movement from a spell (he was using walking between worlds) can he charge? I do not think so as it is remaining sub movement phase so no charge. Can you help me where it says this on the rulebook? No charge can be declared outside the charge sub phase unless explicitly mentioned in the rules, which isn't the case AFAIK. One other exception that comes to mind is random movement, but that is not the case either.
3. If I decide to flee as a charge reaction, I should roll 2 (or 3) dices and then add my movement or only the dices? I think movement as well but my opponents says only the dices Flee distance is equal to the dice outcomes only. Movement is not taken into account.
4. If I have more than one character in a unit, can I declare more than one challenge? Yes. They can each declare a charge.
5. If I am fighting on 2 ranks, can the second rank of cavalry hit with the horses/ cold one or not? Can you help me find where it says on the rulebook as well? No. The mounts do not attack in the second rank. Only the riders can. I don't have the BRB with me to give the page though :S I think it's in the troop types section.
6. Single character (eg. Master of Pegasus): does he has 360 degree view? Does he still need to spend the whole movement phase to turn 180 degrees? No character has 360 degree sight, as far as I know. Certainly not a Master on Peg. A single character can freely pivot (not wheel!) though so facing any direction doesn't cost any movement.
7. If you reform from a panic test, can you charge? Not in the same turn, no.
8. If you follow your enemy outside the table, can you come back the turn after or you still need to do any sort of test? When you come back, can you charge straight away? You come back the next turn, with one model in the back touching the table's edge. You follow rules of reinforcements, which allow a complete movement but no charge, AFAIK.
9. If you overrun in another unit, do you need to fight the close combat straight away or in the next turn? I think straight away, my opponent said next turn. Can you help me find a page here as well? I don't have the page ready, but it's well explained in the book. Normally, you can not fight a second round of combat unless you're in this very specific situation: The newly charged unit is already in combat with another unit (from a charge or a previous combat) and this combat has not been resolved in this turn yet. It's therefor important to choose a smart order to resolve your combats, if such an opportunity arises. Note, though, that if you win this second round of combat and the enemy flees or is destroyed, that the units who had this second round of combat can not pursue or overrun.
10. When you overrun is it only straight line or there is a reasonable possibility to divert slightly? Let’s suppose there is a line of war machines, if I charge the first of them and I destroy the crew basically I can never overrun in another war machine as they do not have flanks and I need to charge it in the front, correct? Can you help me find a page as well?
You overrun in a straight line. Only IF this straight line brings you into contact with a new enemy, can you make a normal charge move with all the wheeling and turning rules following a normal charge move. In your example of warmachines, you need to charge the first warmachine in such an angle that the straight overrun would bring you in the second. However, if that is the case, you could still wheel a little during that overrun, to line up the character for a third warmachine on overrun (in the next turn).
11. If a war machine fail a panic test, simply doesn’t shoot in the next round or the crew is running away (and therefore they need to reform and go back to the machine before shooting again, likely 2 rounds)? They are not allowed to shoot in the next round. That is all.

I know they are a lot, but because he will be in the tournament as well I do not want to be fooled up. Plus he was using High Elves, and we hate them!!!

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Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:13 pm
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Cicciuz wrote:
sorry a last question as well:
only direct magic needs line of sight, while hex and augmented do not need it? e.g. can morathi hide in a hole and still cast thousands of spells?

That depends on the spell. Some spells still require the target to be in the forward arch. A good overview of this is given in the back of the book, but do check the FAQ from G.W. which makes a small correction in that reference sheet.

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"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
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Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:15 pm
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Excellent lessons of WH given by Daeron. Not much to add.

Black Dragon:
3. If a wizard is on the dragon, can she decide not to fight in a close combat? If yes, can the opponent still decide to strike her? Regular close combat attacks are not optional, as far as I knowso she must attack. In any case, the opponent can attack her following the normal rules for attacking a character on a monster. You can not have her escape that fate. An interesting problem to watch out for, is her ASF. If she were to charge a unit, the champion could call a challenge which can not be denied. If her 1 attack kills the champ, the Dragon can no longer attack.
In melee, all models who can strike must strike, even if they wished not (see first sentence BRB p.48).

General questions:
4. If I have more than one character in a unit, can I declare more than one challenge? Yes. They can each declare a charge.
I'm afraid there is a misreading, "charge" for "challenge".
For the challenge, the answer is no, only one challenge can be issued in a close combat (see BRB p.102).

5. If I am fighting on 2 ranks, can the second rank of cavalry hit with the horses/ cold one or not? Can you help me find where it says on the rulebook as well? No. The mounts do not attack in the second rank. Only the riders can. I don't have the BRB with me to give the page though :S I think it's in the troop types section.
Indeed, p.82 BRB, "supporting attacks".

8. If you follow your enemy outside the table, can you come back the turn after or you still need to do any sort of test? When you come back, can you charge straight away? You come back the next turn, with one model in the back touching the table's edge. You follow rules of reinforcements, which allow a complete movement but no charge, AFAIK.
Indeed. BRB p.27.

9. If you overrun in another unit, do you need to fight the close combat straight away or in the next turn? I think straight away, my opponent said next turn. Can you help me find a page here as well? I don't have the page ready, but it's well explained in the book. Normally, you can not fight a second round of combat unless you're in this very specific situation: The newly charged unit is already in combat with another unit (from a charge or a previous combat) and this combat has not been resolved in this turn yet. It's therefor important to choose a smart order to resolve your combats, if such an opportunity arises. Note, though, that if you win this second round of combat and the enemy flees or is destroyed, that the units who had this second round of combat can not pursue or overrun.
Spot on. BRB p. 58. Note that if you win a second time in a row, you cannot overrun again (too tired).

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Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:17 pm
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A few ammendments to the Morathi section otherwise perfectly answered by Daeron:

Quote:
3. Can she join and leave unit without any problem (literally fly to one to another at every movement phase)? Yes, but remember that joining a unit places movement restrictions on that unit (it may no longer move). So the target unit needs to be in place where you want them both to end. Also her total movement can not exceed her movement limit.


It is correct that upon a character joining a unit, that unit may not move afterwards. So yes, move first the "intended target unit" to the position, and then move Morathi. But - she can actually exceed her movement allowance! Say your pegasus is a 40x40 mm base for the sake of example. She must sit in the front rank of cavalry. So, you move a unit of dark riders to a really super position, outside of enemy charge arcs (you really dont want Morathi in cc ;) ) and within great range for all her spells. In order to squeeze maximum potential out of her range, you reform this dark rider unit to be one model wide but 5 man deep. You make it such that the back-most model is within 20" of Morathi (you use her flying speed when she moves out of a unit). She can reach the DR unit = she can join it. But the rules state she must be front rank --> she sits on the side of the front rank. Effectively moving closer to 30". Hacks? No! All according to the rules :)
Also, check (or ask) with the tournament what rules they use for base sizes! According to BRB, a model is to be used with the base size it comes with. Morathi comes on 50x50 mm, but for example a master on pegasus has no official model and you could in theory therefore put him on a 20x20 mm infantry base (you'd be a complete dickhead, but according to BRB you would be right). Many tournaments therefore use a simple base size chart which gives the "correct" base sizes. It may require modification to models, unfortunately, but better be safe than sorry! For example, at the ETC, a dark pegasus (no matter which) is defined to have a 40x40 mm base. It therefore CAN use the trick I mentioned above in cavalry (which is awesome - fast cavalry is our most flexible units!). However, in infantry they simply sit "inside" the unit.



Quote:
5. Let’s assume she is in a unit of Dark riders: how much do they move? 8 for the Pegasus or 9 for the horse (Pegasus fly 10). Are they still fast Cav? [color=#cyan]They are no longer Fast Cav and lose all benefits from those special rules (shooting, reforms etc). However, they can still march 18" like any regular unit (if not disrupted) and charge 9"+2d6 (with swiftstride). [/color]


While the unit does indeed lose all the benefit from fast cav, they also lose some movement allowance. Whilst in a unit, Morathi and her pegasus uses their ground movement values (they do not fly alongside the unit). I can't remember a BRB quote here, though, but if a unit moves over ground, you use ground move. So, the combined unit can move 16" without free reforms, and charge 8+2d6" (they still retain swiftstride though!)


Quote:
1. Is it true that units does not block line of sights anymore? If you shoot at someone behind another unit you get a -2 to hit? Only terrain (e.g. forests, hills, impassable terrain etc.) stop the line of sights? [color=#cyan]True line of sight is used. So, sometimes a unit can be seen through the gaps in between a unit. It happens that players bring a laser pointer to test if a model has Line of Sight or not. Cover rules are valid if a unit is at least partially invisible to the shooter.[/color]


Check the specific tournament rule for line of sight rules!!!! Many tournaments often use "simple line of sight", and you should be aware of this beforehand :)


Oh and one more thing. A war machine does not have flanks, fronts or rears. So it is possible to be VERY creative indeed with charge moves resolved against a war machine. Say you could manage to get in base contact with a war machine with only a very small wheel, but this would cause you to overrun out of the table. You are fully allowed to move in a straight line past the war machine, do your free 90 degree wheel toward the war machine, and then move forward into base contact. This may allow you to overrun into something juicy, and it is fully legal. I hope what I mean is clear, or I can try to throw up a few pictures.

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Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:01 am
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That's great guys! you are very helpful!
can you please give me the page for the character free pivot and the slightly degree in the overrun?

RE morathi: i got her annilhated as they bombard her with 4 bolt thrower, 30 archers and a high mage. i need to find a way to make her survivable and was thinking between this and an impassable terrain and throwing only hex. Other option is in front rank of Cold one and facing the enamy like a real brave warrior.

further question: Glittering robe casted on Corsairs has no effect right?


Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:27 am
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Cicciuz wrote:
further question: Glittering robe casted on Corsairs has no effect right?

That is correct.

They already have a scaly skin (5+) save. Glittering robes gives them another scaly skin (5+) save. "Scaly skin" is a special rule, and so one unit/model can not benefit from having the same rule twice.

While this doesn't apply on the Corsairs, it is worth noting this theoretical point: suppose the Corsairs have a Scaly Skin (6+), then the Scaly Skin (5+) from the glittering robes could replace the Scaly Skin (6+).

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Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:45 am
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The overrun thing is covered in the "combat results" subphase description I believe. It basically says if your overrun takes you into B2B with an enemy, treat the overrun as a full charge move with all the rules that apply.

Remember that direct damage does not require line of sight either. You can go full death on Morathi, hide her behind impassable, and snipe away! It is definitely not a good idea to show her directly, thats for sure. Hard cover is a bare minimum. Hidden in a unit is better. Completely out of sight is best ;)

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Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:58 am
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this is amazing!
so basically a part of the purple sun or black horror she can sit behind a mountain and hear the scream of enemies suffers under her spells!

so when she does need line of sights, basically never?!?


Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:21 am
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Line of sight is needed for some spells, like magic missiles. Purple Sun and Black Horror are vortex spells and work entirely different with different kinds of constraints. A vortex can be fired from pretty much any position, but remember that the vortex actually has to travel to its target... so take terrain and your own units into account when looking for a trajectory.

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Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:30 am
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you are great guys!
one last question: spells like pit of shades that states: "without any kind of saves allowed" cancel ward save from the opponent? even if this is given by a magic resistence?


Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:38 am
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I believe so yes, "any kind of saves allowed" would refer to removing armor and ward saves.

In my warhammer group we have adjusted magic resistance so that it would be the only thing there would give a possible save against such spells, just to make magic resistance more attractive to take.

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Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:08 pm
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A lot of people thought that the uber spells were too powerful when 8th edition was first released, me included.

But, over time I realized they were exactly what the game needed. 7th edition was dominated by death stars and 8th edition had lots of potential to go that way too. But, there is an incredible balance that exists in the edition, which I will sorely miss if they change it about too much (as currently seems likely). Namely:
- Small elite units can be tackled by big massed units. So a of 14 blackguard will be ground into dust by a big unit of 40 Phoenix Guard. Similarly, that small agile unit of dam riders will be shot to ribbons by a big pack of 30 volley firing goblins.
- Big massed units can be tackled by powerful magic and artillery, which have big templates and reduce or ignore saves. That same mammoth Phoenix Guard unit will be sliced in half by a well timed dwellers below spell, while that pack of 30 goblins will be severely harmed by a direct stone thrower hit on the unit.
- Powerful magic and artillery can be dealt with by small elite units, who have the maneuverability to corner and attack those elements, as well as the small points cost per unit to reduce the impact of being hit by big templates and uber no-save damage spells.

It represents a wonderful symmetry of paper-rock-scissors, which helped to balance the game and ruin the plans of all those would-be power gamers. Of course, over time people figured out the weaknesses of the system and exploited them to reincarnate the silly lists of silliness, and GW has made things worse with the End Times, but generally the symmetry between the three components still stands. So, those who alter the rules to remove the strength of magic simply dilute the equation in a way that favors certain types of lists versus others. Not quite my cup of tea.

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Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:38 pm
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Thraundil wrote:
While the unit does indeed lose all the benefit from fast cav, they also lose some movement allowance. Whilst in a unit, Morathi and her pegasus uses their ground movement values (they do not fly alongside the unit). I can't remember a BRB quote here, though, but if a unit moves over ground, you use ground move. So, the combined unit can move 16" without free reforms, and charge 8+2d6" (they still retain swiftstride though!)
You're right!
BRB p.70, "Fly", the fly movement is for "Units made up entirely of models that can fly...".

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Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:35 pm
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Calisson wrote:
You're right!


Lets just make this into a general assumption :twisted:

And as for the wiper spells: I love the fact they exist. Without them, there would be certain races that just would never lose games, ever. The very best you could ever hope for against them would be to draw. Imagine a 2400 point game vs warriors of chaos. Big block of chaos warriors with shields and halberds, mark of Tz and blasted standard, filled with 3 characters on demonic mounts with hilarious ward saves making up the front rank. Sure, you can redirect such a block, but never take points from him. With a wiper spell, you can take LOTS of points from him! His build is not viable - he must go a "softer" route. This is great for the game, to be honest.

The only places I think the wiper spells are too powerful is the stat test, since it can be influenced. I like final trans "5+ and you're a goner". But imagine shadow/dark + life magic combined... First enfeebling foe. Then 6 dice dwellers hoping for IF. Huehue 5/6 of your unit is now gone. That is where it becomes a little too much :P but that is a discussion for another forum ;)

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WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:24 am
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Thraundil wrote:
Calisson wrote:
You're right!

Lets just make this into a general assumption
You mentioned yourself a possible exception:
Thraundil wrote:
I can't remember a BRB quote here

I had to reply why it was not an exception, in order to comfort the general assumption as you wish. ;)

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Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:35 am
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Thraundil wrote:
Lets just make this into a general assumption :twisted:

And as for the wiper spells: I love the fact they exist. Without them, there would be certain races that just would never lose games, ever. The very best you could ever hope for against them would be to draw. Imagine a 2400 point game vs warriors of chaos. Big block of chaos warriors with shields and halberds, mark of Tz and blasted standard, filled with 3 characters on demonic mounts with hilarious ward saves making up the front rank. Sure, you can redirect such a block, but never take points from him. With a wiper spell, you can take LOTS of points from him! His build is not viable - he must go a "softer" route. This is great for the game, to be honest.

The only places I think the wiper spells are too powerful is the stat test, since it can be influenced. I like final trans "5+ and you're a goner". But imagine shadow/dark + life magic combined... First enfeebling foe. Then 6 dice dwellers hoping for IF. Huehue 5/6 of your unit is now gone. That is where it becomes a little too much :P but that is a discussion for another forum ;)


But let us also remember that it is typically consistent that the dispelling party can dispel one critical spell per turn. The exceptions being where winds of magic are very low or a spell is cast with irresistible force. With winds of magic very low, the wiper spells can't be cast in the first place, and if you cast with IF, you pay the price on the miscast table. All very well balanced if you ask me.


Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:55 pm
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
But let us also remember that it is typically consistent that the dispelling party can dispel one critical spell per turn. The exceptions being where winds of magic are very low or a spell is cast with irresistible force. With winds of magic very low, the wiper spells can't be cast in the first place, and if you cast with IF, you pay the price on the miscast table. All very well balanced if you ask me.
+1

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Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:53 pm
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Warrior

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well if you throw on throne of wine not even this problem!!!

The lore ability from the lore of life, can heal a black dragon or only the character on the mount? how can I heal a Dragon?


Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:27 am
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Aspiring Brush Master
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The Lore Atrribute can heal a Dragon (or any single Multi Wound model) just fine.
Its the spell Regrowth that cant be used to heal Dragons (or single multiwoynd models)
I believe ;)

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Sat May 02, 2015 10:30 pm
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