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8th Edition Rules Question 
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Slave (off the Altar)
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Hi guys,

I've been into Warhammer for years, but I have not played a ton of Fantasy tabletop. I love square bases and the complexity of 8th edition, so I probably will not be switching to Age of Sigmar. That being said I have a few questions on 8th edition rules that I have been struggling with, and I hope to find some help here.

Questions:

Characters –Are there any limitation on characters joining another unit? Can a character on a monstrous mount like a Black Dragon join a unit of foot soldiers? The purpose would be to gain protection from archers or being targeted? Everything I've read indicates this is ok, and can also be done during the movement phase. But I never see folks bring their monstrous mounts into units of infantry in battle reports, so I can't help but wonder if I'm missing something? To me it seems like it could be good protection at the cost of mobility?

Characters – Other than close combat, how can characters that are within other units be targeted? Some characters have the "Sniper" skill. War Machines can trace a line to hit them? Same with Direct Damage or Magic Missile Spells? But they should be safe from archers or most ranged weapons while within a unit correct? I know archer fire takes from the rear first when it comes to hitting a champion, standard bearer, etc. so I assume the same logic applies to characters and they would be normally hit last once everyone else is dead? Although the down side is high armor characters would be much more likely to deflect incoming attacks as well. How does this work out?

Line of Sight – Can archers shoot through other units (enemy or their own) to another target unit on the other side of them? Do forests count as soft or hard cover?

Mounts – Mounts have their own Wound total, do you have to roll to see if you hit the rider or the mount for Calvary as you would do with characters? Or are the Mount’s Wounds irrelevant and hits/deaths are only based on the rider (unlike characters)?

Overrun – If killing an entire enemy unit on the first round of a charge, but not all your units got to attack yet, when opting to overrun, do the remaining attackers still get their opportunity for attack if charging into a second unit in the same round?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you very much!!!


Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:05 am
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I'll give it a crack. I don't have the rulebook in front of me (moving house sucks), but from memory, the answers are as follows:

Venoms wrote:
Characters –Are there any limitation on characters joining another unit? Can a character on a monstrous mount like a Black Dragon join a unit of foot soldiers? The purpose would be to gain protection from archers or being targeted? Everything I've read indicates this is ok, and can also be done during the movement phase. But I never see folks bring their monstrous mounts into units of infantry in battle reports, so I can't help but wonder if I'm missing something? To me it seems like it could be good protection at the cost of mobility?


Cavalry and monstrous cavalry characters can join units, but they won't be able to slot neatly into the units unless the base sizes match (whether on a 1:1 ratio or in some other multiple - for example, a cavalry model can join a unit with a base size of 25mm x 25mm, but will have to sit on the side of a unit if the unit's models are on 20mm x 20mm bases).

Chariot-riding models can't join units, except in the case of the Tomb Kings (who have a specific special rule to allow this). I believe that this is true for characters riding monsters as well, but I could be wrong about that. From memory, there are also limits on the availability of Look Out, Sir! for larger models. I can't recall the precise rules for that, though.

Lastly, a hero on a monstrous cavalry mount that has joined with a unit of infantry will be slower, and will also be vulnerable to an opponent racking up combat resolution against the unit rather than the hero. The effect could be that your hero is routed and destroyed along with their unit, even though they've taken little or no damage. As a result, it may not be worth having them join the unit at all.

Venoms wrote:
Characters – Other than close combat, how can characters that are within other units be targeted? Some characters have the "Sniper" skill. War Machines can trace a line to hit them? Same with Direct Damage or Magic Missile Spells? But they should be safe from archers or most ranged weapons while within a unit correct? I know archer fire takes from the rear first when it comes to hitting a champion, standard bearer, etc. so I assume the same logic applies to characters and they would be normally hit last once everyone else is dead? Although the down side is high armor characters would be much more likely to deflect incoming attacks as well. How does this work out?


Look Out, Sir! works to stop war machine sniping 5 times out of 6 (assuming the models are on similarly sized bases). Some spells such as Spirit Leech and Gehenna's Golden Hounds indicate that they may target a specific model in a unit, which may be a character, but most shooting and spells will have to hit the unit's models first, unless there are fewer than 5 non-character models remaining in that unit. Template attacks, which includes cannon fire, will hit whatever is under the template, but characters and champions will get a Look Out, Sir! roll (if eligible).

In short, if the unit has at least 5 models left, damage from shooting and spells will hit the unit rather than the character unless the attack can specifically be allocated to a particular model of the attacker's choice. Look Out, Sir! may still apply even in that case, where the attack provides for it.

Venoms wrote:
Line of Sight – Can archers shoot through other units (enemy or their own) to another target unit on the other side of them? Do forests count as soft or hard cover?


Generally, archers can do this if they can still draw sight to the enemy models being fired at. In most cases, you'd be looking at a -2 penalty to hit for hard cover, and in other cases you wouldn't be able to fire at the target behind the other unit at all.

Forests are soft cover, IIRC. The terrain section of the rulebook (which I don't have in front of me) should make this clear.

Venoms wrote:
Mounts – Mounts have their own Wound total, do you have to roll to see if you hit the rider or the mount for Calvary as you would do with characters? Or are the Mount’s Wounds irrelevant and hits/deaths are only based on the rider (unlike characters)?


For characters riding monsters or chariots - yes, if struck by a non-template shooting attack, you randomise each hit between the rider and the mount. 1-4 = the monster is hit, 5-6 = the rider is hit. Resolve the hits against the relevant target as normal. If it's a template attack, both parts of the model are hit. If it's a close combat attack, the attacker must choose who they're aiming for before rolling to hit.

For cavalry, monstrous cavalry, and characters that are cavalry or monstrous cavalry - no, you just roll against the model as a whole. Roll to hit against the rider's Weapon Skill. Use the higher of the available Toughness and Wounds characteristics in the case of monstrous cavalry, and the rider's stats if it's regular cavalry. The model will only have a single armour save, rather than one for the rider and one for the mount.

Venoms wrote:
Overrun – If killing an entire enemy unit on the first round of a charge, but not all your units got to attack yet, when opting to overrun, do the remaining attackers still get their opportunity for attack if charging into a second unit in the same round?


This is interesting... it won't come up much for Dark Elves, since units which Always Strike First (ASF) attack simultaneously with each other. You'd have to have multiple units charging a target in the same round, and one of them would need to not have ASF (Executioners, Shades with great weapons, Harpies, or one of our big monsters). That said, if the units in question were entitled to make an Overrun move, I can't see why they would be prevented from fighting again in that same round - however, they would not be able to make a second Overrun move and fight in a third combat simply because they hadn't attacked in the first combat in which they would have taken part but for the annihilation of the enemy before they had a chance to attack.

Hope that helps!

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Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:42 am
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Q:Characters –Are there any limitation on characters joining another unit? Can a character on a monstrous mount like a Black Dragon join a unit of foot soldiers?
A: BRB p.97: A character cannot join monsters, flyers, chariots, swarms, warmachines.
A character which is/rides a monster, rides a chariot cannot join any unit.

Q: Characters – Other than close combat, how can characters that are within other units be targeted? Some characters have the "Sniper" skill. War Machines can trace a line to hit them? Same with Direct Damage or Magic Missile Spells?
A: BRB p. 99: normal shooting attacks cannot hit a character if a) there are five or more rank & file, i.e. all but champion, and b) character has same troop type than unit.
In other cases of normal shooting, the controlling player allocates shots.
Magic missile is considered like normal shooting.
Unusual shooting attacks using templates (like cannons) could snipe. If there are 5 R&F same troop type, the character may get Look Out Sir, which fails on 1/d6.

Q: Line of Sight – Can archers shoot through other units (enemy or their own) to another target unit on the other side of them? Do forests count as soft or hard cover?
A: True LoS is what the model could actually see if it had real eyes (use front model for second rank) (BRB p.10). Forest are soft cover (BRB p.119).

Q: Mounts – Mounts have their own Wound total, do you have to roll to see if you hit the rider or the mount for Calvary as you would do with characters?
A: BRB p.82: Mounts' W and T are never used.

Q: Overrun – If killing an entire enemy unit on the first round of a charge, but not all your units got to attack yet, when opting to overrun, do the remaining attackers still get their opportunity for attack if charging into a second unit in the same round?
A: (BRB p.58) I see no difference between the attackers who have already fought and the attackers who have not. All may overrun, and if running into a melee not resolved yet, all may fight.

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Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:36 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)
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Thanks for the feedback guys!!! I really appreciate the help! Thank you so much for taking the time to help out. And appreciate the BRB page references! Apparently I’ve been looking in the wrong places!

Calisson wrote:
Q: Line of Sight – Can archers shoot through other units (enemy or their own) to another target unit on the other side of them? Do forests count as soft or hard cover?
A: True LoS is what the model could actually see if it had real eyes (use front model for second rank) (BRB p.10). Forest are soft cover (BRB p.119).


Q2: Very helpful! So, IF a unit of archers is targeting an enemy unit, but there is another unit (friendly or enemy) directly between them, and in order to track a direct line of sight, your line would hit the heads of the unit in the middle, will this prevent the archers from being able to fire at their desired target? Or could they aim their shot over the heads of the blocking unit and still target the unit behind them? If so I’d imagine there would be at least a soft cover penalty, I’m just not sure if that is a legal shot. If not, you could potentially use that as a tactic to put disposable units in front to block fire against your more valued units.

Calisson wrote:
Q: Mounts – Mounts have their own Wound total, do you have to roll to see if you hit the rider or the mount for Calvary as you would do with characters?
A: BRB p.82: Mounts' W and T are never used.

Q2: That saves some time! They also have attack… do they get to add additional attacks like character’s mounts do? Or, going by this logic, are Calvary mounts just completely ignored?


Haagrum wrote:
This is interesting... it won't come up much for Dark Elves, since units which Always Strike First (ASF) attack simultaneously with each other. You'd have to have multiple units charging a target in the same round, and one of them would need to not have ASF (Executioners, Shades with great weapons, Harpies, or one of our big monsters). That said, if the units in question were entitled to make an Overrun move, I can't see why they would be prevented from fighting again in that same round - however, they would not be able to make a second Overrun move and fight in a third combat simply because they hadn't attacked in the first combat in which they would have taken part but for the annihilation of the enemy before they had a chance to attack.


So the situation was, I had a unit of Witches with a master, hag, and another Lord in it that charged into 10 glade guards. The Glade Guards were completely wiped out before any of my Witch Elves got to attack. So I performed an Overrun into the next nearby unit and charged them successfully. This is where the question came up. We opted to only let the remaining Witch Elves attack, but just could not find this situation well documented in the book.

Calisson wrote:
Q: Overrun – If killing an entire enemy unit on the first round of a charge, but not all your units got to attack yet, when opting to overrun, do the remaining attackers still get their opportunity for attack if charging into a second unit in the same round?
A: (BRB p.58) I see no difference between the attackers who have already fought and the attackers who have not. All may overrun, and if running into a melee not resolved yet, all may fight.

Q2: Your answer would seem to indicate that ALL the attackers would be able to attack again? Even if some or all of them already used their attacks to wipe out the previous unit? The only thing I found in the book is that this type of attack is treated like a pursue. The difference is that the unit they are attacking here is not fleeing, so it does not specify who would be eligible to attack or attack again. I would assume only the units who have not attacked yet would be able to attack in the second charge, but sounds like this is up for interpretation? It would be pretty amazing if the entire unit was able to attack again!


Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:06 am
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Q2: If a unit of archers is targeting an enemy unit, but there is another unit (friendly or enemy) directly between them, and in order to track a direct line of sight, your line would hit the heads of the unit in the middle, will this prevent the archers from being able to fire at their desired target? Or could they aim their shot over the heads of the blocking unit and still target the unit behind them? If so I’d imagine there would be at least a soft cover penalty, I’m just not sure if that is a legal shot. If not, you could potentially use that as a tactic to put disposable units in front to block fire against your more valued units.
A2. BRB p.10. It suffices that each model has one LOS with any part of the target (head, torso, arms or legs, of any of the models in the target unit). Chances that the sight becomes so obsucre that none LOS may be drawn at all are remote. This may happen with a building, or with a unit of cavalry blocking LOS from infantry, but usually a unit of infantry does not block LOS for another unit of infantry.
Based on BRB p. 41, I'd assume that if 50% or more of the target is obscured, then you count a hard cover.
Note that it was a commonly admitted tactics for Empire to have a line of cheap infantry providing cover for more expensive shooting cavalry (outriders), of which more than 50% would be hidden, while said cavalry could shoot above heads of said infantry with no penalty at all (due to LOS rules).

A: BRB p.82: Mounts' W and T are never used.
Q2: That saves some time! They also have attack… do they get to add additional attacks like character’s mounts do? Or, going by this logic, are Calvary mounts just completely ignored?
A2. BRB P.82 is clear: rider and mount use their own WS, S, I and A.


Q: Overrun – If killing an entire enemy unit on the first round of a charge, but not all your units got to attack yet, when opting to overrun, do the remaining attackers still get their opportunity for attack if charging into a second unit in the same round?
A: (BRB p.58) I see no difference between the attackers who have already fought and the attackers who have not. All may overrun, and if running into a melee not resolved yet, all may fight.
Q2: Your answer would seem to indicate that ALL the attackers would be able to attack again? Even if some or all of them already used their attacks to wipe out the previous unit? The only thing I found in the book is that this type of attack is treated like a pursue. The difference is that the unit they are attacking here is not fleeing, so it does not specify who would be eligible to attack or attack again. I would assume only the units who have not attacked yet would be able to attack in the second charge, but sounds like this is up for interpretation? It would be pretty amazing if the entire unit was able to attack again!
A2: Careful! there are two situations covered by the rules.
A and B fight Z, kill Z, overrun into Y.
- If Y was already in melee with C, and if also Y and C did not solved yet their combat, then when comes the resolution between Y and C, you will have A+B+C fight Y. All of them, yes!
However, if they kill Y, then A and B cannot overrun again, only C may pursuit.
- If Y was not in melee, or if Y was in melee with C and they had already solved their combat, then A and B are considered to have charged Y, but that will be resolved later, during next player's turn.

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Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:36 pm
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Calisson wrote:
A2. BRB p.10. It suffices that each model has one LOS with any part of the target (head, torso, arms or legs, of any of the models in the target unit). Chances that the sight becomes so obsucre that none LOS may be drawn at all are remote. This may happen with a building, or with a unit of cavalry blocking LOS from infantry, but usually a unit of infantry does not block LOS for another unit of infantry.
Based on BRB p. 41, I'd assume that if 50% or more of the target is obscured, then you count a hard cover.
Note that it was a commonly admitted tactics for Empire to have a line of cheap infantry providing cover for more expensive shooting cavalry (outriders), of which more than 50% would be hidden, while said cavalry could shoot above heads of said infantry with no penalty at all (due to LOS rules).

Ok wow! So it’s a thing! 50% or more obscured by another unit = hard cover. Gotcha!

Calisson wrote:
A2. BRB P.82 is clear: rider and mount use their own WS, S, I and A.

Ok, so Cavalry mounts do get to give their own attacks, but just don’t receive attacks. Thanks for the clarification!


Calisson wrote:
A2: Careful! there are two situations covered by the rules.
A and B fight Z, kill Z, overrun into Y.
- If Y was already in melee with C, and if also Y and C did not solved yet their combat, then when comes the resolution between Y and C, you will have A+B+C fight Y. All of them, yes!
However, if they kill Y, then A and B cannot overrun again, only C may pursuit.
- If Y was not in melee, or if Y was in melee with C and they had already solved their combat, then A and B are considered to have charged Y, but that will be resolved later, during next player's turn.

Wow… ok this is where it gets tricky!
Q3: So from what you are saying, I actually resolved our combat incorrectly. I possibly short changed myself.

At the bottom of turn 2, my unit of Witches had characters with higher initiative in their unit, so they attacked first and wiped out the Glade Guard before the Witches got their attacks. In the same Close Combat phase we then Overran into a unit of Sisters of the Thorn. At which point the Witches and the Sisters got their attacks. By the sound of it, since the Sisters had not attacked (or been attacked) yet, ALL of my units should have got to attack them again (not just the Witches)? Just wondering if this is this documented in the book anywhere?

Also, going by your example… If unit A & B kill Z and Overrun into Y, but SOME of the characters in the Y unit have attacked unit C but others with lower Initiative have not, would A & B get to attack with full attacks again in the same round, or need to wait for the next turn?


Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:12 pm
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Venoms wrote:
Calisson wrote:
A2: Careful! there are two situations covered by the rules.
A and B fight Z, kill Z, overrun into Y.
- If Y was already in melee with C, and if also Y and C did not solved yet their combat, then when comes the resolution between Y and C, you will have A+B+C fight Y. All of them, yes!
However, if they kill Y, then A and B cannot overrun again, only C may pursuit.
- If Y was not in melee, or if Y was in melee with C and they had already solved their combat, then A and B are considered to have charged Y, but that will be resolved later, during next player's turn.

Wow… ok this is where it gets tricky!
Q3: So from what you are saying, I actually resolved our combat incorrectly. I possibly short changed myself.

At the bottom of turn 2, my unit of Witches had characters with higher initiative in their unit, so they attacked first and wiped out the Glade Guard before the Witches got their attacks. In the same Close Combat phase we then Overran into a unit of Sisters of the Thorn. At which point the Witches and the Sisters got their attacks. By the sound of it, since the Sisters had not attacked (or been attacked) yet, ALL of my units should have got to attack them again (not just the Witches)? Just wondering if this is this documented in the book anywhere?

Also, going by your example… If unit A & B kill Z and Overrun into Y, but SOME of the characters in the Y unit have attacked unit C but others with lower Initiative have not, would A & B get to attack with full attacks again in the same round, or need to wait for the next turn?


The issue here is that models who have the Always Strikes First ("ASF") rule will always strike simultaneously. Initiative doesn't come into it at all. The Glade Guard and the Witch Elves would all strike at the same time as the characters in the Witch Elves unit, different Initiative values notwithstanding.

It's for this reason that the Banner of Eternal Flame can be of lesser utility for ASF models - they can't be attacking a Regenerating model after it has taken a wound from a Flaming Attack that was struck by another ASF model, because their attacks happen at the same time.

The characters in the Witch Elves unit would get to attack the Sisters of the Thorn as well, in the example given above.

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Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:47 pm
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Haagrum wrote:
The issue here is that models who have the Always Strikes First ("ASF") rule will always strike simultaneously. Initiative doesn't come into it at all. The Glade Guard and the Witch Elves would all strike at the same time as the characters in the Witch Elves unit, different Initiative values notwithstanding.

It's for this reason that the Banner of Eternal Flame can be of lesser utility for ASF models - they can't be attacking a Regenerating model after it has taken a wound from a Flaming Attack that was struck by another ASF model, because their attacks happen at the same time.

The characters in the Witch Elves unit would get to attack the Sisters of the Thorn as well, in the example given above.

I have been a fool! You are right! I forgot that models that both have ASF strike simultaneously. In my mind I was thinking it just canceled each other and then you go back to Initiative totals.

So wow... ALL my units would be able to attack again!?! That is a HUGE advantage! With that in mind, planning a cascading attack like that can essentially earn you free kills in similar situations! Does anyone know where this is documented in the rule book? My opponent was calling shenanigans on just my Witches continuing the attack, he might flip the table if I tell him all my units are going to attack again and I don't have a page number to back it up with!


Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:43 am
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Venoms wrote:
So wow... ALL my units would be able to attack again!?! That is a HUGE advantage! With that in mind, planning a cascading attack like that can essentially earn you free kills in similar situations! Does anyone know where this is documented in the rule book? My opponent was calling shenanigans on just my Witches continuing the attack, he might flip the table if I tell him all my units are going to attack again and I don't have a page number to back it up with!


Just wondering if anyone knows where we can find this documented?


Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:41 am
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Page 58, left column, Pursuit into a new enemy, third paragraph, not counting the bold one.

And yes, pursuing into a new enemy and fighting twice is very powerful. You can arrange it by, for example, charging your Big Nasty Unit in a first enemy and dark riders in a second enemy, in the same charge phase. When the Big Nasty Unit overruns in the second enemy, it gets to fight again, even though the dark riders are such a small and weak unit and they have been there for just a short while.

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Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:35 am
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Fantastic! Thank you so much for the quick response! This opens up a whole new layer of the game for me!!! Can't wait to go into my next battle with this in mind!


Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:01 pm
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Venoms wrote:
Fantastic! Thank you so much for the quick response! This opens up a whole new layer of the game for me!!! Can't wait to go into my next battle with this in mind!


Not really adding much to the thread sorry, just wanted to say that it is good to see such enthusiasm for the game :)

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Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:19 am
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