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What to do with the Executioners? 
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The Aspect of Murder
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Does anyone like this unit with any of the changes we have suggested? What is the latest consensus (if there is one) on the best way to fix them? I really want to start a discussion here, because as far as the fixes to units are concerned, this is the only one I am not happy with. So far we have:

1) Heavy Armor option for +1 pt (12pt)

2) Heavy Armor option and S4 for +2 pt (13pt)

3) Heavy Armor option and cause Fear +3pt (14pt)

4) Heavy Armor option and Reletless Assault (successful wound allows one additional attack) for +2(?)pt (13pt?)

5) Heavy Armor option and the ability to fight as either wielding a Great Weapon of Halberd, with the option to switch methods in each round for +3(?)pt (14pt?)

I have tested the unit a few times, and I think that all it really needs is the Heavy Armor option. What are your thoughts? What should we do with these guys?

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Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:50 pm
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This is the one part I am not happy with either. Nothing as of yet really appeals in the same way that the Eternal Hatred thing did for the BG. I like the last option in principal but the only part I truly agree with is the heavy armour upgrade.

My mind is wandering towards applying different tactics to this unit. There is a guy in our local store whose brother uses them in units of 20 - 30 and they seem to perform well for him. I am wondering if a larger unitm maybe 18 sitting 6 wide by 3 ranks with full command and war banner is the way to go. They would be more likely to survive a trip across the battlefield, maybe even shield them with 10 warriors for 100pts.

An idea I had was to make Spearmen a detachment to Exe's, or make Exe's a detachment for City Guard. What's one more special rule for a unit which already has special rules?

Back to the larger unit size idea. It might be interesting for some of you to try and develop a new set of tactics for an army based around this idea. The list would need to be primarily infantry based which I don't do too often. A large unit of Exe's sitting next to a unit of City Guard - which one would an opponent go for first? Quite a choice really as both are potentially difficult to deal with in combat. Put a noble in with them, armed with biting blade and Blood Armour maybe?


Tue Apr 01, 2003 10:05 pm
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Well, it's not the only fix I am not happy with, but it does seem to be the most difficult fix...

1) Heavy Armor option for +1 pt (12pt)
Might be the best fix. Aside from Killing Blow 5+, it is the only one that seems to be tested, so I would guess it has the favour over the more expensive options. I think it is sufficient, but not completely convinced yet.

However, somewhat more interesting executioners would be fun, and useful. So options 2) and 3) also appeal to me. Option 2) seems simplest and would make the unit a more popular choices (as well as doing a better job in filling a gap in the army list).
2) Heavy Armor option and S4 for +2 pt (13pt)
3) Heavy Armor option and cause Fear +3pt (14pt)

In case of 3), I think the fear upgrade should be optional, and limited to a single unit. Making it optional allows tactical choices such as taking the Executioners as a small flanking unit (without them getting to expensive).

The remaining two options seem too complicated... I don't think it is a good idea to add more made up special rules to this unit. Stick to the special abilities from the basic rules.
I can't really explain option 4) in fluff, and this is even more true for option 5) (Which really tries to turn Executioners into mini-Swordmasters)

4) Heavy Armor option and Relentless Assault (successful wound allows
one additional attack) for +2(?)pt (13pt?)

5) Heavy Armor option and the ability to fight as either wielding a Great Weapon of Halberd, with the option to switch methods in each round for +3(?)pt (14pt?)


Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:46 am
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I am in currentlyfavor of merely giving the Executioners Heavy Armor option for a number or reasons:

1) It keeps their cost reasonable (maybe even a bit cheap relative to their abilities). This is the most important reason for me.

2) It is the easiest to implement in a fix

3) Opponents are more accepting of it

I have had quite a bit of success using the Executioners in a standard 20 man unit with the Heavy Armor option. My biggest complaint about them was always that they got creamed by bowfire and S4 attacks. The Heavy Armor really goes a good way towards making them more resilient (although they are still fragile). Once in combat, their WS5 ensures that just about every other troop in the game hits them on 4's, thus reducing the amount of damage they take. With Heavy Armor, I actually like this unit quite a bit. Especially with a Noble in it. They are pretty hard (but far from over the top).

I would also like to playtest the Relentless Assault rule in an actual game or two if possible. Langmann asked me to test the rule in isolated unit vs unit combats on my own, and it actually worked very well as a rule. The Executioners were able to hold their own for multiple rounds against nasties like Black Orcs and Chaos Warriors. I do worry about it being overpowered against lesser troops, however. But I'm not sure if I am wasting my time by playtesting it since it is not a part of the "official" Revision.

Has anyone else tried using the Relentless Assault rule I described? Has anyone playtested it in an actual battle?

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Wed Apr 02, 2003 2:58 pm
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By giving the unit the relentless assault rule the executioner become the shocktroop that they are in fluff.
Imagine the following: Executioners doesn't team up in a unit as Cityguard would. The unit excells in very swift killing when they do not cause enough casualties on the charge they will likely be swepped over in the next phase. It is very hard to explain my thoughts on the matter but overall I personally see them more as a shock trooper then a "sturdy unit" choice.


- I have tested the relentless assault as in: Reroll,5+ KB. Keep in mind that these relentless assault is not so relentless as the Bone Giant version, you just get +1 attack that not give another attack.

I rolled 20 times for a unit of 5 wide who charged a Ws3 T3 unit. On average the unit did 3/4 wounds, the KB were on average 2 of the wounds.

- I have tested the relentless assault as in: Reroll,6+ KB, S4. Keep in mind that these relentless assault is not so relentless as the Bone Giant version, you just get +1 attack that not give another attack. In this version a killing blow did not give you an additional attack. "When the executioners have decapitated the foes head they won't strike again, they're happy with the result" :twisted:

I rolled 20 times for a unit of 5 wide who charged a Ws3 T3 unit. On average the unit did 5/6 wounds, the KB were on average 2 of the wounds.

This may seem very (read very,very,very) nice, But I have also gotten to the conclusion that a lot of us still use executioners in very small unit sizes. I think we first should try to use units of 20 in a battle and after that we must make a new statement about the executioners. (it is not my personal taste to field them at 20 (fluff wise))

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Wed Apr 02, 2003 4:36 pm
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Relentless Assault and 5+ Killing Blow is simply too much. No way that will ever fly. The same goes for Relentless Assault and S4.

The Relentless Assault rule, as Langmann described it to me, allows each Exectioner that scores an unsaved wound to make one additional attack. That is it. It will be S5 and at 6+ Killing Blow like normal.

This rule works well because it allows the Executioners the potential to do a decent amount of damage after the first round of combat (assuming they charged). Even if 2 or 3 are cut down, they can still potentially win the combat. As it stands, it is very difficult for them to win after the first round of combat because not many are able to strike back. This rule just gives them more of a fighting chance.

I have yet to test this rule in a game, but I feel if we want anything beyond the Heavy Armor option (which I think is pretty much the only thing everyone agrees on) we should go with this rule.

I still have my reservations about the rule against normal troops or in unusually lucky circumstances when the Executioners could cause 10 or more wounds (very unlikely, but it is possible). But in my testing against other elite units it has only helped the Executioners marginally (which is a good thing).

Should we try to get this idea into the "official" Revision so more people will playtest it? I want to run some more "lab" tests, especially on my own against basic rank and file troops like Clanrats, but pretty soon I think I want to try it out in actual battles against opponents.

How would you guys price this ability? Am I completely getting out of hand with this idea?

Langmann, this was originally your idea and I am liking it more as I think about it. What are your thoughts?

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Wed Apr 02, 2003 7:41 pm
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Yeah I know it is over the top, I rolled for it a week ago when I came up with the idea. It was just to show the effectiveness.

But honestly how do other people on Druchii.net see them(executioners)? As shock troopers or a viable/stable unit?

BTW another note: The changes above were done IF the executioners ARE changed into shock troopers, this will however also change the max unit size off course. Making it 15. And the changes will make them more expensive, I don't know however if people want that.

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Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:47 pm
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Relentless assult with WS 5 and is too much. That's why they made the Bone Giant WS 3, otherwise it has the potential to do a tremendous amount of damage. I think Heavy Armour is the first obvious fix and either S4 or killing blow on a 5+ is the second one. I don't think we need to think up complicated special rules for this unit as it is mainly (as I see it) a support unit designed to attack high armour/toughness creatures. I think combined with the Banner of Relentless Assult (note: can we please find this item another name? This one sounds nothing like it gives a 5+ ward save.) this unit will survive the trip over the filed and into combat. From there on they should be designed to do as much damage in one round of combat (aiming to get the charge) and break the troops. They are cheap as a special unit. We don't to make them more and more expenive with more rules.


Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:11 pm
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The Aspect of Murder
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Nameless One wrote:
But honestly how do other people on Druchii.net see them(executioners)? As shock troopers or a viable/stable unit?


This is a very good point. I think this issue should be clarified first.

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Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:25 pm
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We had a very long discussion about the unit before, which carried over for about 100+ posts. In the end people wanted 5+ KB.

(The extra attack option, Nameless One, originally came from Draichlord quite a while ago. I put it on the backburner for a bit.)

Right now I am interested in what people think, but only interested in what people who actually play this game think. There are a lot of people who come here who do not even own the army. So I am happy to let this thread continue on here.

At this time I am concerned with the way executioners may go. If they were allowed 5+ KB or fear or even extra attack/wound would probably make executioners 0-1. That is something that we may or may not want to happen to this unit.

The ability to use executioners with a GW and then a halberd style option would not change their points costs. You are sacrificing the extra strength for initiative. I think people should still consider this option. It will not make them into mini-swordsmasters. Having the ability to S5 without strikes-last is different.

At this point in time the heavy armour is indeed set in stone.

Anyhow continue to debate what you want to do. I am going to be adding the two rules to the revision as soon as we hear from Gav.

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Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:50 pm
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langmann wrote:
At this time I am concerned with the way executioners may go. If they were allowed 5+ KB or fear or even extra attack/wound would probably make executioners 0-1. That is something that we may or may not want to happen to this unit.

I feel that Executioners (at the moment) are not a 'rare' troop type. Although it is a special choice, the Executioners are rather cheap. Changing them to 0-1 changes their feel quite a bit.
I think we should avoid revisions that would require a 0-1 status for the Executioners.

langmann wrote:
The ability to use executioners with a GW and then a halberd style option would not change their points costs.

It should change their point cost. You're giving the unit an extra option (and a potent one, at that), so it should cost extra. One point should do the trick, though.

langmann wrote:
I think people should still consider this option. It will not make them into mini-swordsmasters. Having the ability to S5 without strikes-last is different.

Yes, it is different. However, the Sword Masters are a unit that uses Great Weapons without the initiative. With this proposal, the Executioners also carry Great Weapons, but can use them on the charge without having to strike last on the other rounds. Not as good as the Sword Masters, but it has the same 'taste'.
I think the option is interesting, and quite good, but it still feels like we're trying to imitate the Sword Masters, trying to get what they got, without making it to obvious.

Small downside note: the models with their big swords don't really support halberd style option... A second hilt or such would help.


Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:33 am
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Having Exe's as a 0-1 choice may not be such a bad thing if they are 'right and fixed'. We have plenty of specials to choose from so having 2 of them as 0-1 is not a problem to me. Especially if we get City Guard accepted into the main list as another core unit.

I have never personally agreed with the 5+KB, s4 is a decent option as is the additional attack, both of which would work very well in my eyes from a fluff and game point of view.

To answer the earlier question, Executioners are very much a shock troop in my eyes.


Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:06 pm
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Purple wrote:
langmann wrote:
The ability to use executioners with a GW and then a halberd style option would not change their points costs.

It should change their point cost. You're giving the unit an extra option (and a potent one, at that), so it should cost extra. One point should do the trick, though.


No, because then they would cost the same as swordsmasters, and they are clearly not as good.

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Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:20 pm
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I think 0-1 Executioners may not be so bad. I clearly see them as a shock troop not designed for long enduring rounds of combat. If we made them 0-1 then we could perhaps add a 5+ killing blow rule. Right now I think what they need is Heavy Armour and S4.


Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:38 pm
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I also think that only Heavy armour is REALLY needed. With an assassin, those guys are killers enough.
The S4 is also a good idea, but should make them 0-1 choice. I have always been against 5+ killing blow, as it's never gonna be agreed , and is really too powerful against characters. I mean, only magic items ( and those are very rare ! ) allow to make it so far...... now giving it to a 12 points special choice troop. Eck.

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Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:46 pm
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I think the heavy armour upgrade is good, the others just seem too powerful.

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Sat Apr 05, 2003 5:57 am
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Btw I don't know if any of the above playtested the KB 5+? It really ain't 'that' powerfull. You get far more kills with S4 and KB6.

Example: Right now we don't have any problem facing T3 troopers the problem lays with T4 troopers who have an higher save then average. If I have to chose I rather have S4+ normal KB.

But then again what kind of executioners do we want? Maybe it is an option to include the shocktrooper executioners in a new revision version? So that we can chose. If we take that option the price and unit size should be changed drasticly.

I just can't see them working as a normal unit......on the other hand I will include them next time as a 20 unit size unit so I automatically get the +4 combat bonus. After that I will make my final statement :?

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Sat Apr 05, 2003 9:29 am
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Nameless One wrote:
Btw I don't know if any of the above playtested the KB 5+? It really ain't 'that' powerfull. You get far more kills with S4 and KB6.

Example: Right now we don't have any problem facing T3 troopers the problem lays with T4 troopers who have an higher save then average. If I have to chose I rather have S4+ normal KB.

But then again what kind of executioners do we want? Maybe it is an option to include the shocktrooper executioners in a new revision version? So that we can chose. If we take that option the price and unit size should be changed drasticly.

I just can't see them working as a normal unit......on the other hand I will include them next time as a 20 unit size unit so I automatically get the +4 combat bonus. After that I will make my final statement :?


I agree with Nameless one that 5+ KB isn't that good. They may be powerfull against characters, but exes are still quite easily reduced to scrap metal, even with HA. They can quite easily be avoided aswell.

Strength 4 seems to be a bigger boon, beacuse it's much easier to kill toughness 4 troopers. Strength 5 just doesn't cut it against these.
But with s4 exes just seem a little to ordinary to me.

The best way I guess is the newly suggested option 'relentless assault' which makes them unique and not too powerfull. It would really make them a shock troop, and a choice worth considering...

Today I tested them against orcs and HE with the new rules. They made a mess of some of the orc boys, but were almost magicked to death by the HE. When they finally reached combat against some silver helms they failed misarably because the HE player made his 4+ saves...

Relentless assault seems a better choice to me beacuse S4 and 5+ KB would only make them knight killers, whereas RA would make them medium/heavy infantry butchers, which seems more approriate to me...
Remember they are still elves, not high strength armour piercing stunties...

The heavy armour really seems to help, and I'm happy they are this way now. They are more reliable and can actually sustain some damage...

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Sat Apr 05, 2003 7:22 pm
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langmann wrote:
No, because then they would cost the same as swordsmasters, and they are clearly not as good.


Hadn't spotted that yet... On the other hand, I stil think it is an advantage that should come free (a normal unit can't do this, and it is an advantage). So in my opinion, we're both right.... But the point increase should perhaps be 0.5 pts and rounded down (that, or the Swordmasters are to cheap (which might well be the case))


Sat Apr 05, 2003 10:45 pm
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Reader of posts wrote:
Strength 4 seems to be a bigger boon, beacuse it's much easier to kill toughness 4 troopers. Strength 5 just doesn't cut it against these.
But with s4 exes just seem a little to ordinary to me.

The best way I guess is the newly suggested option 'relentless assault' which makes them unique and not too powerfull.

I think we should avoid to introduce to many special rules. If a unit can be fixed using more 'conventional' upgrades, I think it should be done the simple way. Also, I think the Executioners are unique enough already (not that much Great Weapon Killing Blow units around), so they don't need a special rule to make them good enough.

Reader of posts wrote:
Relentless assault seems a better choice to me beacuse S4 and 5+ KB would only make them knight killers, whereas RA would make them medium/heavy infantry butchers, which seems more approriate to me...

Actually, Knight killers is what the DE army seems to lack, so I would be rather happy with a coupe of those. I often have a lot of trouble with anything with an armour save.


Sat Apr 05, 2003 10:52 pm
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Purple wrote:
Reader of posts wrote:
Strength 4 seems to be a bigger boon, beacuse it's much easier to kill toughness 4 troopers. Strength 5 just doesn't cut it against these.
But with s4 exes just seem a little to ordinary to me.

The best way I guess is the newly suggested option 'relentless assault' which makes them unique and not too powerfull.

I think we should avoid to introduce to many special rules. If a unit can be fixed using more 'conventional' upgrades, I think it should be done the simple way. Also, I think the Executioners are unique enough already (not that much Great Weapon Killing Blow units around), so they don't need a special rule to make them good enough.

Reader of posts wrote:
Relentless assault seems a better choice to me beacuse S4 and 5+ KB would only make them knight killers, whereas RA would make them medium/heavy infantry butchers, which seems more approriate to me...

Actually, Knight killers is what the DE army seems to lack, so I would be rather happy with a coupe of those. I often have a lot of trouble with anything with an armour save.


I agree that we shouldn't complicate the rules to much, but if more comlicated rules are more approriate, then I think we should choose those. I'm not saying that the RA rules ARE better, all I'm saying is they might be worth a try.

On the second point, I think that's just a matter of opinion. If I want to kill knights, ill get a blade of rhuin, s6 noble or reapers. We don't need knights killing exes necisarely, because we already have enough means IMHO to deal with them. Besides executioners wouldn't be very good at getting grips with the heavy cavalry, since any semi-intelligent player would out-charge the exes. Many people say they would use exes to flank the knights instead, but again, many players will probaly do a good job avoiding getting flanked by exes (or anything else for that matter.
IMHO exes would just do better if they were fighting foot troops, since they can outcharge them. After all, getting the charge is all important for the exes...

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Sun Apr 06, 2003 9:17 am
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It will be interesting to see what Gav has to say about this. I have sent him another email this past Friday asking him for his opinion on the Revision. If I don't receive a reply by wednesday I will telephone him.


Sun Apr 06, 2003 10:06 am
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Reader of posts wrote:
I agree that we shouldn't complicate the rules to much, but if more comlicated rules are more approriate, then I think we should choose those. I'm not saying that the RA rules ARE better, all I'm saying is they might be worth a try.


Of course, if the complicated rules are better (as in: makes the executioners more of what they should be), we should consider them. I merely disagreed with giving the Executioners a special rule just because a special rule makes them more unique.

Reader of posts wrote:
On the second point, I think that's just a matter of opinion. If I want to kill knights, ill get a blade of rhuin, s6 noble or reapers. We don't need knights killing exes necisarely, because we already have enough means IMHO to deal with them.

We do have some means, yes... However, I do not like having to rely on my characters to kill some type of unit. IMHO, that makes the list rather restrictive in a tournament setting: you'd be forced to take characters with specific items, taking out a lot of flexibility..

Reader of posts wrote:
Besides executioners wouldn't be very good at getting grips with the heavy cavalry, since any semi-intelligent player would out-charge the exes. Many people say they would use exes to flank the knights instead, but again, many players will probaly do a good job avoiding getting flanked by exes (or anything else for that matter.
IMHO exes would just do better if they were fighting foot troops, since they can outcharge them. After all, getting the charge is all important for the exes...

Yes, this is absolutely true. However, since I was looking for a means to extend the 'Knight-killing' arsenal, Executioners were the best (though not perfect) choice. The Executioners are of course better vs. infantry. But I think a Strength upgrade would benefit them against both cavalry and infantry, instead of creating another unit specialized in killing infantry.


Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:12 am
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Purple wrote:
Of course, if the complicated rules are better (as in: makes the executioners more of what they should be), we should consider them. I merely disagreed with giving the Executioners a special rule just because a special rule makes them more unique.


I am also wary of additional rules that complicate the game, but I really do feel that the Relentless Assault idea is the best way to go with the Executioners. It just suits them for many reasons, both fluffwise and gameplay wise.

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Mon Apr 07, 2003 2:50 pm
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Tonight I will post some of my preliminary results of testing the Relentless Assault rule against various opponents. I should have done this awhile ago... :oops:

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Mon Apr 07, 2003 2:51 pm
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