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Cauldron of Blood solution 
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Shade
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2002 6:45 pm
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Location: Netherlands, Huizen
Last weekend, I playtested the cauldron of blood, the fear of our enemies :roll: . I tried to take as much out of it as possible; I took 2 witch elf units, both hags equipped with killing blow, executioners and a noble with killing blow.

The Hags actually never rolled a killing blow, even with the help of their big statue. Several units benefited from the rerols, but these were only the units with low strength. The 6+ ward save was nice, but it still doesn’t save you from any big stuff. The only ability I was really positive about was never losing frenzy, but to benefit from these abilities you have to get lots of witch elves. Thus your army isn’t really flexible since you won’t be able to get lots of other units (and special choices. The extra range was sufficient but still, it isn’t the fix I was looking for,

Now, IMHO the Cauldron should be a defensive unit, not an offensive one (due to it’s restricted range). The current rules don’t really present any major bonuses for a defending army, it’s just rerols for failed wounding rolls in the first round of combat.

The solution is quite simple. Allow shooting units to benefit from the reroll failed to wound rolls every turn, but this only applies to enemy units being within 20 inch. In this way the dark elves can’t make use of this ability in the first turn, due to the armies being 24 inch apart. The reroll for combat is still 24 inch, so the army can still choose to take the offensive, if it wants to.

In order to shoot at an enemy unit the unit who is shooting must qualify for the following points:

- The unit shooting must be in range (20') of the Cauldron.
- The enemy unit must be in range of the Cauldron
- The shooting unit's target must be within 20 inch of the Cauldron.

With this change the cauldron would really be a choice to consider especially for defensive armies.

- Crossbow elves would really be choice again, since low strength weapons benefit the most from the rerols.
- Reapers wont be too powerful because they are high strength weaponry so benefit less from the rerols. The single shot might be a problem, because it could benefit allot from this rule after the first ranker is killed (since it’s strength would become less). I suggest the reaper may only reroll for the first time it penetrates, the ranks that are pierced after that won’t benefit from the rerol.
- Both Cauldron and ranged unit need to have range to the chosen target.
- You won’t be able to take mass reapers since the cauldron is a rare choice.

Other arguments from my second post (to make sure you read them ;) ):

- The benefit is still short ranged; you will only get 1-2 volleys at them before they reach you so you will need combat troops.
- if you wanted to shoot the enemy ASAP you will have to move the cauldron on the edge of your deployment, thus risking it.
- It can't move as well, so you better position it right.
- Your shooting forces will be deployed VERY tight, due to the cauldron's limited range. In this way not alot combat units can fit in there.
- I fear for the use of XB elves with the new cityguard. With this new cauldron, they will be taken, since it would be way to espensive to get lots of CG units. Instead you can take several small RXB units, who will do the shooting instead of the CG.
- The power lies with the cauldron, finish the (weak) crew and the abilty is gone.
- The greatest beneficiaries, the RXB troops, still have a low strength weapon with NO AP. They still won't be able to take down armoured opponents.
- I don't see Dark elf shooting take down entire armies. We are too few for that. You will still need combat troops, otherwise your toast.
- Skaven, who have cheap HIGH STRENGTH auto hit missile troops, indeed can take down entire armies, but these troops are always supported by a horde of cheap CC troops. Dark elves lack the high strength and the cheap CC troops....


The points cost should remain the same, since it was worth it’s points before. The other abilities will kept and this ability shall be added.
I think it’s really priced fair at 205 points.

I hope you like these ideas. They certainly don’t seem to powerful to me but they are worthwhile.

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Last edited by Reader of posts on Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:37 am
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Shade

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Honestly, i feel the same as you.

I used the cauldron (24" range) now i 3 games and i won't touch it again unless someone creates advantageous rules for this thing.

(See my "analysis" thread for a breakdown)

Your idea was discussed within my gaming group, too - but we (fallible as we are ;) ) came to the conclusion that the inclusion of shooting might be over the top. Surely a mobile missle force including 4 reapers would be a sight to behold!

HtH is where the action lies. 8)

The Skaven are the only army capable of defeating the enemy with missle fire alone. All other armies have to go down the close combat route.

Just from a gut feeling i'd say that the DE could, with the help of the "new" cauldron create a horrible shooting force!
On plus it would be a real mess to measure all the different distances (20" here, 24" there, long range, short range, breath weapon, etc, etc). ;)

Maybe your idea is the right one. But just from a personal "feel" it doesn't sit right with me. Sorry.

The idea behind your idea is the right one, though. I, too feel that the CoB is STILL a piece-of-crap-never-to-be-taken-by-serious-players-other-than-fluff-nuts... ;)

Keep up the good work
Regards
Zorn

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 11:57 am
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Shade
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I edited the following points into my orginal message:

- The unit shooting must be in range (20') of the Cauldron.
- The enemy unit must be in range of the Cauldron
- The shooting unit's target must be within 20 inch of the Cauldron.


In this way shades and the like won't be able to benefit from the cauldron's abilty.
Mass reapers can't be taken in a 2000pts game. The cauldron is still a rare choice.

- The benefit is still short ranged; you will only get 1-2 volleys at them before they reach you so you will need combat troops.
- if you wanted to shoot the enemy ASAP you will have to move the cauldron on the edge of your deployment, thus risking it.
- It can't move as well, so you better position it right.
- Your shooting forces will be deployed VERY tight, due to the cauldron's limited range. In this way not alot combat units can fit in there.
- I fear for the use of XB elves with the new cityguard. With this new cauldron, they will be taken, since it would be way to espensive to get lots of CG units. Instead you can take several small RXB units, who will do the shooting instead of the CG.
- The power lies with the cauldron, finish the (weak) crew and the abilty is gone.
- The greatest beneficiaries, the RXB troops, still have a low strength weapon with NO AP. They still won't be able to take down armoured opponents.
- I don't see Dark elf shooting take down entire armies. We are too few for that. You will still need combat troops, otherwise your toast.
- Skaven, who have cheap HIGH STRENGTH auto hit missile troops, indeed can take down entire armies, but these troops are always supported by a horde of cheap CC troops. Dark elves lack the high strength and the cheap CC troops....

The way it is now, the cauldron is not worth it. Unless you have some other ideas I suggest we dump the current version and test the new one.
The least would could do is test this new version of the cauldron...

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:23 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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To me, the Cauldron sits right alongside Executioners in that we still haven't found the true answer to their problems. When Langmann suggested Eternal Hatred for Black Guard the idea jumped out at me as being dead right.

I haven't seen anything like that for either of these 2 yet. Range 24 " for the Cauldron is going in the right direction but I feel that with the inclusion of City Guard into the core lists it might get too cheesey ( for want of a better word ) to include shooting in it's influence. At first glance it appears complicated too. No offence as I have only briefly read your idea so far.

If you want other ideas how about the Cauldron extends the charge range of Witch Elves by D6"? Or WE with 12" get Death Frenzy?


Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:03 pm
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Shade
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Dark Alliance wrote:
I haven't seen anything like that for either of these 2 yet. Range 24 " for the Cauldron is going in the right direction but I feel that with the inclusion of City Guard into the core lists it might get too cheesey ( for want of a better word ) to include shooting in it's influence. At first glance it appears complicated too. No offence as I have only briefly read your idea so far.


Well, I kindly invite you to read my arguments first... ;)

Dark Alliance wrote:
If you want other ideas how about the Cauldron extends the charge range of Witch Elves by D6"? Or WE with 12" get Death Frenzy?


No this is not what we need. The witches don't have a rules problem, they don't need further boosts. It is the cauldron itself and the bonuses it gives to rest of the army that are the problems...

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:27 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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Ok I read through it fully now :D ;) and I don't think it is the way to go purely and simply because of the numbers which can be got off from a unit of rxbs. The poison rxb option was deemed too powerful so I would expect this option to receive the same response really.

You asked for other ideas, mine were not suggested because I feel the WEs have a problem, they are fine, but you wanted other reasons to take the Cauldron. The obvious link is to WEs so why not look to enhance them further?

I just don't see how you can justify rerolling shooting. :?


Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:45 pm
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Shade
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Have you read my arguments in the second post ( ill include those in my first)? Poison was indeed to big of a deal, but this is different. Auto wound (poison) is something different than reroll to wound (and less powerfull). Consider this:
12 shots (long range, 2 shots). 4 hit, 2 wound, 2 rerolled and another wound. So that's a total of 3 wounds, is that so stunning? Also with poison you always wound, regardless of the toughness. Rerolls, just give you a second chance...

As you put it yourself the witch elves are fine. So why further enchance. What the CoB really needs to do is further enchance the defensive capabalities of the DE. I suggest that we atleast test this type of CoB, and we will see if it's overpowered...

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:09 pm
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Hunter Of The Night
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How about a unit that defeats an enemy unit in close combat and is within range of the Cauldron causes fear for the following turn due to the horrific and merciless way they slaughter their enemies?

Or how about take away the failed re-roll to wound and say that every Dark Elf unit within 24" gets one additional attack in close combat. (This might be a bit too powerful and therefore the Cauldron's points cost will need to be increased)


Mon Mar 17, 2003 5:43 pm
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I agree with the things which are said above. The Cauldron isn't of much use unless you use several units of witch elves. The 'always are in frenzy' is a very nice rule but it is very limited.
The 'all units may reroll their to wound rolls'rule makes the cauldron less specialized. But I can understand noone will take it in 2000 point battles. In far larger battle I can imagine it has a huger profit.

I might even say that the point cost could be lowered enormously.

Maybe, maybe we should give the cauldron a total new set of rules.

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Mon Mar 17, 2003 8:59 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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If anything, I like the idea of lowering the cost of the Cauldron down by a considerable amount. You have to compare with the Casket of Souls IMO and look what that costs - 165pts if I remember correctly.

165pts which can do far more damage than our Cauldron.


Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:36 am
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Nameless One wrote:
The Cauldron isn't of much use unless you use several units of witch elves. The 'always are in frenzy' is a very nice rule but it is very limited.


It is generally for the witch elves.

Quote:
The 'all units may reroll their to wound rolls'rule makes the cauldron less specialized. But I can understand noone will take it in 2000 point battles. In far larger battle I can imagine it has a huger profit.

Yep I agree.

Quote:
I might even say that the point cost could be lowered enormously.


That is possible as well.

Quote:
Maybe, maybe we should give the cauldron a total new set of rules.


It needs serious playtesting. We both know the druchii need to break something on the first turn. One or two extra wounds is one or two extra CR, which can easily mean the difference between a break or not.

Never forget that. When something is broken it usually is run down or gets slammed again. DA this means that the cauldron has the extrinsic ability to do more damage than the casket of souls.

Moreover witches never losing frenzy means they never autobreak for one or take psychology tests. Considering the amount of fear armies out there now it is a decent addtition to their prowess.

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Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:15 pm
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Shade
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Seriously langmann, under the current rules it's really not worth it. Never autobreaking is great, but you still have to roll a breaktest. And since WE arn't really known for their armour, they won't have a pretty CC resolution.

I agree, that giving reapers reroll to wound may be powerful, but if we havn't even tested it yet, how could you be sure (and if you read my arguments, the CoB doesn't seem as powerful anymore)?

Clearly, not allot of people are satisfied about the cauldron. I don't see any other ideas, besides mine and keeping it the same under the current rules but with a lower cost.

The least we could do is test, right?

I would really like it if you would allow me (and other people if they want to) to test my cauldron rules

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Wed Mar 19, 2003 8:20 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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I want more playtesting of the rules as they are right now.

So far only two tests. One test resulted in an excellent opinion of the cauldron and the other was by you.

I need more results, not just from you but from other people. I need to see actual results. Sorry.

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Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:10 pm
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Well today I used the COB, and I came to the same conclusion again it was a 205 waste of points.

I especially made a WE list with multiple units of WE. But serious WE are even though always freny NOT unbreakable how much is that?

In the whole battle (8 turns due to a too big gaming table, a big fault) I counted the bonusses which I got from the cauldron:
- reroll to wound: 5
- save of WE: 3
Remember that after the successfull wounding rolls the AS kicked in. So much combat's were not won by it.

I'll try to post the battle report this week, I also came to some other conclusion: some combination of magic items are pretty unfair (read almost cheezy)

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Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:27 pm
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range 24
shooting distribution like war machine

120pts

Any objections to this?

Basically the cauldron is crap because of the pts.

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Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:52 am
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