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The rare slot: Realm of the Reaper? 

What is your FAVORITE rare choice, and WHY?
Reaper bolt thower 88%  88%  [ 7 ]
Black Guard 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
War Hydra 13%  13%  [ 1 ]
Cauldron of blood 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 8

The rare slot: Realm of the Reaper? 
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Shade
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Before you say anything PLEASE READ first, thanks.

The most important part of the revision to me is making some of the underpowered choices more of a choice when comparing them with already usful ones, thus creating more variety.
That being said, I predict that the variety in Druchii armies rare slots well still be quite small, even with the revision. The reaper is still the only choice worth the rare slot. The reaper itself is an excellent warmachine, and able fulfill many roles on the battlefield. The reaper has always been a popular but also the only choice in the rare slots of many players in competitive DE armies.
The other choices were simply not worth it. Now with the revision attempts were made to improve the other rare choices. I have tested all the new rare slots now, but the reaper still remains the only choice for me.
As explained the reaper is a very flexible choice. It has a almost guarantied influence on the game due to its long range and accuracy. It merely needs line of sight to an enemy. The other rare choices need to get in combat range to be effective to have any influence on the game. Therefore, they need to be quite good at combat, and be able to receive some missile punishment. Below I will write up what I think is wrong with the other rare slots currently and I will make comparisons with other Druchii units why they are more effective.

The war hydra. A towering fire spitting behemoth and able to do serious damage too enemies. According to the fluff that is. The hydra currently costs about 200 points, which is the same cost as 2 reapers or 2 chariots, so one could say it would at least be half as effective as the reapers. Many armies have quite a lot of units with at least weapon skill 4 so the hydra usually hits half of its attacks (meaning 2-3 hits), and with strength 5 you would still only kill 1-2 toughness 4 troops and 2-3 T3 troops (and that’s before counting in armour saves). A chariot, which is half the hydra’s points cost, has 4.5 guarantied strength 5 hits, and on top of that 4 strength 4 attacks, compared to the 4 strength 3 attacks of the hydra’s handlers.
Thus the chariot is a much more reliable choice in combat. But that is not all the hydra has to offer. The hydra also has terror, which is quite handy against human armies, skaven skirmishers or goblins. It also has fear and a unit strength of 6 which is quite nice, although the chariot also has fear.
Getting into combat is also quite hard for the hydra. It has 6 wounds, compared to 4 wounds on the chariot, making it quite durable too canon balls and the like. The chariot is auto destroyed when wounded by a str7 hit or higher, so the hydra is more resistant against str7 hits. Both have toughness 5, but the hydra is a large target making it a favorable target for small arms fire. So when you compare the 2, the hydra is better against strength 7 hits but the chariot is better at receiving small arms fire. So the chariot is again the better choice, since you can get 2 chariots for the price of 1 hydra.
Both get in combat on turn 3, but that’s only when the hydra is allowed to march. The big drawback of the chariot ofcourse is stupidity, but loss of handlers has a similar effect. The stupidity and loss of handlers can be solved by a beastmaster of noble/highborn, though.
Overall even a single chariot seems a better choice to me, which is weird because its half the points of a hydra. The main problem to me seems the combat potential of the hydra. Only a simple changes are necessary:
- Up the weapon skill too 5, so it is more effective against (the many) weapon skill 4 troops.
- Up the strength to 6, so it is easier to kill toughness 4 troops and high armour save troops. This would also give the Druchii the necessary knight killer unit, which they don’t really have right now.
- Maybe give it another attack, just for upping the combat potential, and making it more of a choice compared to the chariot’s impact hits.
- Lowering its points cost to 150-170. And even that is allot for a support unit. Remember it is still a single model, so when on its own it is always outnumbered. The current 200 points for a hydra is equal to a unit of 20 unarmed spearmen for crying out loud, who would probably even win due to the (low) weapon skill of the hydra.



Black guard:

As much as I like the eternal hatred rule, I really think it’s still priced to expensive. I agree that 16 points is worth its abilities, but I remember what Allesio said in the white dwarf’s warhammer chronicles about the Grave Guard and Black knights. Originally, The points cost of both units was very high because they had T4, fear, high armour save and quite some punch. When playtesting of the VC began, no one ever took either of the units, because everyone found them to expensive, so all the VC armies were quite similar in that aspect. To change this, the points cost of both units were lowered, even though they should have been higher, so that people would take them.
I think the same thing should be done for the black guard. They also seem to expensive, and are quite easily killed. Their abilities are great though, but those don’t seem to equal out their frailty against combat and shooting.
To fix them I suggest a point’s drop of 3 points. In this way the stubborn ability can also be put to better use because larger units would be taken. It would still be quite easy to counter them, since they are still infantry and they have low armour save.


I have already given comments and suggestions about the cauldron in another thread in this forum, so look there for explanation. It really doesn’t seem much of a choice compared too 2 reapers, imo.

The overall result of this poll should also point out how big the variety is between the druchii armies, my vote goes to the reapers as ever, reasons are given above ;)
All this is only my opinion. I hope I have convinced the ones that have read this. If you don’t please give me a constructive answer why you think otherwise.

Thanks for reading…

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Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:12 pm
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Good post,

It doesn't happen too often but I almost agree on every point. :)

- Reapers: Yes they still are my favourite unit choice, this is because of the high flexibility of the unit, it is good against monsters and with multishoot good against knights and footsoldiers.

- Hydra: When I play offensive I mostly get another 20 strong unit corsairs instead of the hydra. I agree the little power that a hydra could give against highly armoured troops is lost when another S3 unit is used. But with the unit I hope to outnumber the enemy and thereby win the combat.

- BG even though they might be worth it they still are not an option. When you use elites you mostly buy them to break the enemy. BG do not do that. That is the fluff I understand: they are stubborn, BUT stubborness must not be highly priced. Not in the case of a very low armoured T3 model. Stubborn has its uses but please keep in mind that this 16 point model is very easily killed. Where I am leading to is that whenever the BG wins a combat they probably have a very low unit strength left. Such are still easy VP.

The BG may have big bonuses they also have huge drawbacks. These can be easily used. Even strength 3 shooting gets usefull in this situation :P

- Cauldron: as most of us agree with it is, in this situation, still broken. And since I have no original, balanced solution for it I won't comment on it. :?

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Wed Apr 09, 2003 7:19 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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I don't think any of those fixes for the hydra will match the potency of the RBT. Face the realities of the game, there alway seems to be, for every army, a rare unit that is the "no brainer". All we'll end up doing is replacing one no brainer with another.

Anyhow that being said, the Hydra is a decent combat unit. The Hydra has something that the COC and COK lack, and that is it's ability to ALWAYS hit with S5 for every round of combat. Yes the chariot can inflict between 2 - 7 S5 hits, along with the 4 S4 ones, but once that round is over, it's used up. Sometimes this is enough to break, but other times it is not. Moreover the chariot is only US 4, which means as a flank charger it will not remove rank bonus. The hydra is comparable to a unit of 5 CoK, yet better for fights that may last, or shooting that causes attrition.

The hydra is a perfect unit to use for a flanking charge in combination with a unit of corsairs or other infantry. It is a tank, and it is reliable. I have used the hydra many times (even against heavy shooting armies like dwarfs) and find it has worked over and over again. I also play a O&G army and I know the power of a Giant. However the Giant is unreliable at times, and this has cost me. Also that fat bugger has been brought down more times than I would ever have liked by the likes of simple archers. And the bone giant, loses wounds from CR which can be disastrous...

Keeping it in perspective of the game we are playing, the hydra is quite capable. In comparison with other large monsters it is fine. I suggest that you use it in combo with a unit of corsairs or other infantry. Because of the 12" charge, the way monsters are maneuverable, it has benefits even over another unit of corsairs.

The Black Guard are very capable as they are now. Bolt throwers are good, but they won't always win you the game. You need to control the ground as well. Black Guard give you infantry that can match other 15-16 point infantry, and will demolish weaker troop types. Also don't ever forget the M5 that people always seem to forget about when it comes to elves. It is so important. As to the revision, pair this unit with the banner that gives you a 5+ ward save against MM and shooting and it isn't a good target anymore.

Anyhow we are expecting that if the revision is released it will be a trial list. As such a trial list is open for playtesting in a larger audience then even druchii.net can provide. Change must be measured with restraint if we are to expect any change. Remember for every one of you saying that something is not enough, we have other people saying that the changes are too much. Hence balance must be achieved, and this is why I am hesitant to invoke larger changes then have been implemented, especially after the playtesting reports no real problems with the hydra or the BG now. At this point the BG and the Hydra function fine under the revision.

_________________
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Wed Apr 09, 2003 9:15 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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Obviously RBTs are the 'no-brainer' as you guys put it, for all the reasons mentioned but they too have their weaknesses as do all war machines and as progressive new army books are released they all seem to have ways of dealing with them. Tomb swarms, Furies, Miners, skaven tunnelling teams etc. So in a highly mobile force for example one might consider the hydra as the rare slot thus negating the likely loss of a rare choice in the second turn.

Regarding the Hydra itself the use I generally put it to is twofold - first as a missile magnet/shield for a dragon or manticore and second as a flanking unit to protect/support Corsairs in a combat situation. Sure a better stat line would be great but I would rather see Eternal Hatred accepted and the Cauldron fixed. I think that with M6 for the apprentices the hydra is acceptable at this point.

Black Guard - I like this change but they need to work with another unit combo. As the DE fluff states we are an elite army and all of our units need to work in a coherent manner in order that success may be achieved. In my mind they are the anchor working in conjunction with Exes or City Guard to bring the enemy advance to a halt thus allowing those support charges to go in on the flanks.


I think that we still need to playtest the Cauldron more and we still need to work on Executioners but the rest I think should wait until we get Gav's analysis.


Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:57 am
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At this moment, the RBT are (of course) the rare choice that I use most often. But it is not the only rare choice used. I think that both the Hydra and the Black Guard are worth their rare choice (though I still feel that the vulnerable handlers are a major drawback to the hydra; don't know yet what to fix to compensate for that).

The only rare choice that still seems disfunctional is the Cauldron of Blood.


Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:59 am
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langmann wrote:
I don't think any of those fixes for the hydra will match the potency of the RBT. Face the realities of the game, there alway seems to be, for every army, a rare unit that is the "no brainer". All we'll end up doing is replacing one no brainer with another.


I disagree. There shouldn't be no brainers in any army. If there are no-brainers in an army, that means the army has a flaw. Until recently the corsairs for an example were a no brainer. Now we have city guard to take away that flaw because you need to choose between them. Of course there are some exceptions, like clan rats who must be taken, but overall there shouldn't be no-brainers, because they mean lack of variety.
I started this thread because I thought the variety between the rare choices wasn’t really that big. If the hydra would just be made a little better, people would actually start to considering them, instead of the reapers.

langmann wrote:
Anyhow that being said, the Hydra is a decent combat unit. The Hydra has something that the COC and COK lack, and that is it's ability to ALWAYS hit with S5 for every round of combat. Yes the chariot can inflict between 2 - 7 S5 hits, along with the 4 S4 ones, but once that round is over, it's used up. Sometimes this is enough to break, but other times it is not. Moreover the chariot is only US 4, which means as a flank charger it will not remove rank bonus. The hydra is comparable to a unit of 5 CoK, yet better for fights that may last, or shooting that causes attrition.
The hydra is a perfect unit to use for a flanking charge in combination with a unit of corsairs or other infantry. It is a tank, and it is reliable. I have used the hydra many times (even against heavy shooting armies like dwarfs) and find it has worked over and over again. I also play a O&G army and I know the power of a Giant. However the Giant is unreliable at times, and this has cost me. Also that fat bugger has been brought down more times than I would ever have liked by the likes of simple archers. And the bone giant, loses wounds from CR which can be disastrous...

Keeping it in perspective of the game we are playing, the hydra is quite capable. In comparison with other large monsters it is fine. I suggest that you use it in combo with a unit of corsairs or other infantry. Because of the 12" charge, the way monsters are maneuverable, it has benefits even over another unit of corsairs.


When comparing the Hydra and chariot, the hydra is indeed way better in the CC rounds after the first. In that way the hydra is better, but IMO Druchii are more about one hit wonders than about durable attacks. When a chariot attacks you have an almost guarantee of enemy casualties, and when used with a ranked unit you have a big chance of breaking the enemy. With hydra this is much harder to do this, even when used in combination with a ranked unit, due to it's low weapon skill. It's not really nice to see your 200 points creature, only hit 2 of it's attacks, and adding only a slight number of CC points to the resolution. It is absolutely necessary for the hydra to still have S5 in the next round, because it is not really good at breaking the enemy due to it's low WS. But to ask 200 points for that is riduculous.
The fact that chariots are better at causing wounds the first round, raising the chance of the enemy breaking, alone makes the chariot a more favorable choice. And its half the Hydra's cost!
WS5 would really help the fighting potential of the hydra, as explained above, and it's such a simple change.
Also I think the hydra with S6 would be the knight killer we want. People who favor the S4 executioners, say they need this to have a combat unit which is able to do some damage to knights, because DE currently lack that. I think the hydra would be much better at it, since it has a bigger charge range, and it has a smaller frontage.
Again, the implantation of S6 would put it beside the only other knight killing unit, the reaper. Thus there would actually be competition between the 2, one is combat oriented the other is ranged so the player actually has to choose between the 2. The no-brainer label would be removed from the reaper. If this stat increase goes hand in hand with a point reduction, than it would be even better and logical, since the reaper doesn't need to get into combat like the hydra to kick knight butt

The flanking issue isn't that big of a deal for the chariot. firstly the chariot isn't really designed to do a flanking job, with a move of 7. Secondly, a Dark rider unit is way better and flanking, and IS designed for it. So even if the chariot had a US of 5 and you are trying to get a chariot in someone's flank, you would be using it wrong; it takes way to long to get into flanking position, usually.


langmann wrote:
The Black Guard are very capable as they are now. Bolt throwers are good, but they won't always win you the game. You need to control the ground as well. Black Guard give you infantry that can match other 15-16 point infantry, and will demolish weaker troop types. Also don't ever forget the M5 that people always seem to forget about when it comes to elves. It is so important. As to the revision, pair this unit with the banner that gives you a 5+ ward save against MM and shooting and it isn't a good target anymore.


Like nameless one said, when people take a certain elite unit the expect it to do more damage than the usual core/special CC unit. Black guard don't really do that kind of damage, even with eternal hatred. They are good against the average trooper though, but if I would want to kill those, I would much rather have the much cheaper corsair or executioners. The black guard has stubborn to make up for that, but stubborn and frailty don't really go together that well, as has been explained a hundred times. All you need to do is smack a decent CC killer and ANY ranked unit against them, and they die in droves.

The other '15-16' point infantry units you mention are also worthless, because of overrated points costs for their abilities. Phoeinix guard, Temple guard and even Chaos warriors are all those kind of units. And why these units suck and overrated? Because they lack maneuverability, and have little guarantee of getting into combat. One can avoid these units if he wants to. If I face CW I rejoice, because I know I can circle around them, and shoot the hell out of them. When they are weak enough I charge them and they die.
It is this easy how you kill BG and even easier due to their frailty in comparison with the other 15-16'ers.

langmann wrote:
Anyhow we are expecting that if the revision is released it will be a trial list. As such a trial list is open for playtesting in a larger audience then even druchii.net can provide. Change must be measured with restraint if we are to expect any change. Remember for every one of you saying that something is not enough, we have other people saying that the changes are too much. Hence balance must be achieved, and this is why I am hesitant to invoke larger changes then have been implemented, especially after the playtesting reports no real problems with the hydra or the BG now. At this point the BG and the Hydra function fine under the revision.


You have to remember that people take certain revised choices because they are new. So if they take them, it doesn't mean they take the because they like them better under the revision (that's why I stress the idea of people needing to clarify all of their choices in their GP lists). And like you said, not everyone agrees with each other about further changes in the GP, because the people will fear it is to much to ask to GW, and they would label us as whiners. The least we could do is test these little changes that are suggested.

I assure you when the time comes that the revision will be in the white dwarf and the rare slots will be the same, competitive armies will still only be using the reaper. Variety is so very important, and no-brainers like reapers should have some competition...

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Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:12 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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People were taking the hydra before the revision came out.

Anyhow these two unit types function fine now. Remember to keep them in perspective of the entire game. As you point out we are one hit wonders. The hydra gives us the ability to last in combat, something the chariot does not. So it's different from the chariot.
Secondly you are right the chariot is not for flanking, but the hydra can be used that way quite successfully with M6. Thus it is different from a chariot. Plus negating rank bonus is always good, especially with the ease the hydra can do it. Even for a one hit wonder army that is perfect. If the enemy manages to make his break test you get all those S5 attacks again in the next round. S5 attacks are good, not bad. Of course dwarfs can shrug hits like that off (refering to your last batrep). But that is dwarfs, and I can beat dwarf armies with all elven infantry, our movement excells us.

DR are good flankers, but they are not always the best. They are easy to wear down and reduce to 2 from 5. The hydra is not easy to wear down. Most opponents are not stupid and will target DR units with small missile fire and hits in HtH to reduce them down. Finally in that second round the hydra gives you hitting power, something the DR do not do.
Finally here is a combo for you to try: Fear banner on the BG and a hydra in tandem with them. You'll autobreak most things you charge, or things that charge you, when you smack in with the hydra on it's flank.

If you are letting someone hit your BG with two units with no rescue in sight then you are playing them wrong and deserve to lose them. How else are the enemy supposed to defeat the BG??? They do need a way to do it after all.

You mention CC killer, well the BG match up fine with CC killers. The second point you are missing in your analysis is that because of I6 and eternal hatred they are killing the enemy before the enemy can hit the BG. Thus in effect negating the T3 problems of elves in general.

Yes they are expensive, but all elves are. Emp GreatSwords are expensive compared to empire regular troops. Hammerers are expensive compared to regular dwarf troops. The BG are expensive compared to regular elven troops but offer a unit that excells in HtH and can stick around all day. Also many armies are composed of core cav, and the ability of the BG to hold that up and hurt them in rounds later is nice.

You need to support all your units. Elven units are not made to just walk over everything (though they can do so to human units quite easily).

At this time there is no reason to modify these particular units any further. From battlereports they function fine. Remember that there are people seriously opposed to any of these changes. I have to balance this out. Right now people are winning with their DE WITH the revision unit changes. That is important, that is what people wanted, to be able to use certain troop types and not know that they are going to lose. Not be frustrated that the hydra is so slow compared to other monsters. Not be frustrated that CoK fail so often. That a BM is useless to take. That spearelves are really useless. All these things. For everyone out there who still prefers corsairs, there are people who like cityguard formation. It now is shaping up to style of play rather than play to win.

That was the purpose of the revision. Not to make Dark elves so uber strong and so good that they become the Nobrainer army out there.

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While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:45 pm
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langmann wrote:
People were taking the hydra before the revision came out.


Indeed, but does that mean that the hydra was okay? People don’t always take a certain unit because they think it is good. Sometimes they take it because they like the model, or they thought it was good, but it wasn’t, but kept using it anyway because it would be a waste of money if they didn’t. So saying they were using the unit before doesn’t automatically make the unit good.

langmann wrote:
Anyhow these two unit types function fine now. Remember to keep them in perspective of the entire game. As you point out we are one hit wonders. The hydra gives us the ability to last in combat, something the chariot does not. So it's different from the chariot.
Secondly you are right the chariot is not for flanking, but the hydra can be used that way quite successfully with M6. Thus it is different from a chariot. Plus negating rank bonus is always good, especially with the ease the hydra can do it. Even for a one hit wonder army that is perfect. If the enemy manages to make his break test you get all those S5 attacks again in the next round. S5 attacks are good, not bad. Of course dwarfs can shrug hits like that off (refering to your last batrep). But that is dwarfs, and I can beat dwarf armies with all Elven infantry, our movement excels us.


I agree with you that having S5 every round is a huge bonus, and I have agreed with you before about this. The main problem with the hydra is that it has such average weapon skill. You mention my battle report in which I have problems with the dwarfs because of their WS4 and T4. Sadly, dwarfs aren’t the only army out there with lots of WS4 troops. I have played a dozen battles with the hydra, and each time I face an army with ws4 I get disappointed by my hydra. High elves, Chaos, Wood elves and allot of the Empire and Brettonian troops all have a basic ws4. Due to this, the hydra even has problems with these armies average troops, which should be easy to break for the hydra, and that not to talk of these armies elites. The hydra actually should be able to break these kind of units with ease (in conjunction with the blocks of course), and really help out the other DE units against the other elites out there. Currently the hydra is only good against the low WS armies out there. Most of these low WS troops are already easy to break with the other DE units, we don’t need a Hydra for that.
All of my opponents agree with me that the Hydra is currently lacking due to the WS4 and it should be upped. We just can’t see the thing working in competitive lists

The S6 was merely a suggestion, and IMO not an overpowering one. Currently DE don’t have a real knight killer, leaving the reaper beside, like I said in a post before this one. A S6 hydra would be the knight-killing unit the Druchii players want. IMO it would be better to give the hydra S6 than the executioners, as I explained before.
I really don’t see a problem with it. Tomb kings also have a ranged knight killer(skull catapult and a CC oriented one(bone giant). Thus giving the player a choice between the 2. Currently Druchii only have one (the reaper), so giving the Hydra S6 would only create some competition, in the rare slot.

langmann wrote:
DR are good flankers, but they are not always the best. They are easy to wear down and reduce to 2 from 5. The hydra is not easy to wear down. Most opponents are not stupid and will target DR units with small missile fire and hits in HtH to reduce them down. Finally in that second round the hydra gives you hitting power, something the DR do not do.


I agree, that the hydra is a good resilient flanker, in comparison with the Dark riders. You mention that opponents aren’t stupid, but so isn’t the average Druchii player. You don’t just march up straight toward enemy missile fire, you move around them, and you constantly move behind cover to do so. A hydra can’t do this, since it can’t free reform and it doesn’t have a 18 inch move.
Really Dark riders are allot better at flanking. If you are opting to get a hydra on someone’s flank you are dreaming. If an opponent lets it get this far, he isn’t very capable. All you need to do is put some kind of support unit on the flank.
Dark riders shouldn’t flank on their own, just like the hydra. Thus if you fail in your in your flanking maneuver (not breaking the enemy), you are either particularly unlucky or you have charged the wrong unit (e.g. an unbreakable one). The hydra is indeed better in the second round of the ‘flank combat’ but a second round of such a combat means you have failed. When I charge someone in the flank I intend to break him, not get in a long combat.

langmann wrote:
Finally here is a combo for you to try: Fear banner on the BG and a hydra in tandem with them. You'll autobreak most things you charge, or things that charge you, when you smack in with the hydra on it's flank.


Firstly such a combo costs like 650 points, which is way to much for 2 infantry units (which have no guarantee of combat). Secondly, it’s really an ideal picture of a situation you are giving me there, which does not really have a chance against the average opponent.

langmann wrote:
If you are letting someone hit your BG with two units with no rescue in sight then you are playing them wrong and deserve to lose them. How else are the enemy supposed to defeat the BG??? They do need a way to do it after all.


I was just giving you one of the many options the enemy has to remove a Black guard unit. Magic missile, template weapons, small arms fire are just some of the ranged options you have to get rid of them. If even only 1 Black guard dies, you can be happy because black guard units aren’t really that many.
And that leaves combat units aside. Anything with a large number of attacks is a BG’s Armageddon.

langmann wrote:
You mention CC killer, well the BG match up fine with CC killers. The second point you are missing in your analysis is that because of I6 and eternal hatred they are killing the enemy before the enemy can hit the BG. Thus in effect negating the T3 problems of elves in general.


I agree, the second round of CC is very nice for the BG, and with even little numbers they can survive into that. But that is only if they get into combat in full starting numbers.
Like I said before BG are easily whittled down by missile fire, and because they are in little numbers the really need some numbers to hold the initial charge. They can’t hold that charge if reduced to half their numbers or less.
Even if I were to give the BG unit the banner of relentless assault, it would only be stopping 1 third of the BG casualties which really isn’t enough, because every BG counts.

langmann wrote:
Yes they are expensive, but all elves are. Emp GreatSwords are expensive compared to empire regular troops. Hammerers are expensive compared to regular dwarf troops. The BG are expensive compared to regular elven troops but offer a unit that excells in HtH and can stick around all day. Also many armies are composed of core cav, and the ability of the BG to hold that up and hurt them in rounds later is nice.


Again this only applies if the BG get into combat in sufficient numbers.

langmann wrote:
You need to support all your units. Elven units are not made to just walk over everything (though they can do so to human units quite easily).
At this time there is no reason to modify these particular units any further. From battlereports they function fine. Remember that there are people seriously opposed to any of these changes. I have to balance this out. Right now people are winning with their DE WITH the revision unit changes. That is important, that is what people wanted, to be able to use certain troop types and not know that they are going to lose. Not be frustrated that the hydra is so slow compared to other monsters. Not be frustrated that CoK fail so often. That a BM is useless to take. That spearelves are really useless. All these things. For everyone out there who still prefers corsairs, there are people who like cityguard formation. It now is shaping up to style of play rather than play to win.
That was the purpose of the revision. Not to make Dark elves so uber strong and so good that they become the Nobrainer army out there.


I play 3 armies: Empire, Skaven and Dark elves. I like them equally as much, but I regret that I can only make a couple of effective lists with my Druchii. Thus I would like to see the DE units that I don’t use right now improved, and creating more variation in my army lists. However, I definantly don’t want a DE lists which is a cheese fest, so I am not trying to make it one.
Many of the Druchii have already improved, but it saddens me that the rare slot is still dominated by the Reaper. This fact, which is shown by the current poll percentage, should be changed.
No brainers, as you put, are the thing we must avoid, since it effects the variety of the entire army. Earlier in this thread you said, there are no-brainers like the reaper in every army and thus it was justified that the reaper still ruled the rare slot.
In saying this you already admit that the reaper is a better choice in comparison with the other rare choices.
I am frustrated by this, because I want to use all those other choices, but I won’t because apparently, it is a widely accepted by the playtesters that there are no-brainers in armies and thus certain choices aren’t altered.
Everything in the army should be a choice, not just a select few of them or a single rare choice for that matter…

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:36 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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I know a lot of people who think the BG are excellent troopers. Who use this unit regularly and win most of their games. To change them so drastically would result in murder from opponents. I suggest you direct your attention to discovering how to use this unit, which is quite good but does require a degree of study to understand the ideal uses of it.

Anyhow at this time I am not making changes to either of these units, especially the BG. I have it under authority that the costs of this unit will not be dropping dramatically like you wanted. I could offer at the most a 1 point reduction, which will hardly change them, and would not allow eternal hatred to be adopted.

I am sorry if you feel this way. I encourage you to direct your attention to the units that I am asking for changes from at this time. I find what you say usually has merit and is well thought out. However, I am also constrained.

I am constrained by time, I have a little amount of time left to fix the DE list for the next annual. This is confirmed.

I am constrained by direction given to me by Gav Thorpe and Dark Alliance as to what will be addressed.

I am constrained by the bargaining process occuring between Dark Alliance and Gav Thorpe.

I am constrained by playtesting reports which show good results from both these units at this time.

I am constrained by input from the majority of druchii.net, who wanted certain changes.

I am constrained by people who think that our changes are way to dramatic. There are a number of people who find BG fine and don't think they should change much.

So we must proceed patiently.

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While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:34 pm
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Shade
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I understand langmann, you have been given a hard task. You can't make everyone happy. I'm glad you gave me this attetion and thought to my view of these units. I just hope that I have given you different perspective on the current standings of the rare choices than everyone else seems to give. Maybe after some more playtesting you might agree with me, or not. But I would be happy if you choose these units and use them in battle, that you would keep in mind what I said.

I think I have given everything about my persective, so I will rest my case. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I'm not, bur only playtesting can find that out. So I will certainly be trying BG and the hydra out again and playtest some more...

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:34 pm
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