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Cauldron Open for Business 
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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As promised the Guildsmembers get first dibs at changes.

The Cauldron is NOT changing yet. However I am opening the discussion for change ideas.

Things to keep in mind.

1. Remember the other opponent's armies. Let's not be cheesemongers.

2. The Cauldron should MOSTLY aid witch elves. It is designed for them in mind.

3. I am opening upgrade options of about 40 points.

4. You need to keep playtesting, this is the major way we can help the army get better.

Thanks :D

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While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:24 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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I'll start off:

40 points:

Cauldron provides one extra dispel dice.

Bound Spells Cast at Level 4:

Insidious Rage: The bound spell unleashes an unnatural rage in one unit of witch elves. These witch elves become S4. Remains in play until another spell is cast or it is dispelled.

Murderous Lust: The bound spell allows one unit of witch elves to ignore any enemy combat bonuses for outnumbering, flanking, rear attacks and ranks. Remains in play until another spell is cast or it is dispelled.

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Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:31 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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My first point is I think it is too expensive. 165 / 175 pts is a better value as it stands.

Other ideas

1. All DE Infantry units within 6" of the Cauldron cause fear such is the terrible reputation of the effects imbued upon the DE race if anyone tries to attack it.

2. Maybe some kind of regeneration ability for Witch Elves? After all they bathe in the blood don't they.

3. Having the Cauldron cause the effects of Witchbrew on all WE units within range is interesting as it allows other stuff to be taken by the hags.

4. How about, the presence of the Cauldron limits the effect of frenzy in that it effects the extra attack but negates the forced charge as the WEs will not move too far away from the Cauldron involuntarily


Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:41 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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I like the extra dispel dice. Maybe for use only against spells targeting Witch Elves?


Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:43 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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DA, I assume this is in conjunction with the already proposed changes but if not here my thoughts,

Q. What is the cauldron?
A. a big bath! The place where every WE wants to bathe to rejuvinate

Q.Who use it?
A. Only WE's and Morathi (her exact nature is to be determined)

Q. How is it used?
A. It gets filled up with lots of blood from slave and others who get on the wrong side of the WE's.

Q. What effect does it have on the DE phscy?
A. They are scared of ending up in it.

Q. What else could be considered?
A. WE hate sorceresses.

So lets approach from the basis of these answers,

It should benefit the WE's survivability, have some form of pshcology effect on everyone else and possibly some form of anti magical property

My sugestion

1. all WE units including the cauldron within 18" gain a 6+ ward save

Giving a save is a compromise for regeneration - to use the cauldron the WE must bathe in it so only some of those injured in the fighting would be able to make it back to the cauldron to restore themselves. So some form of save.

2. Any WE units within 18" automatically regains frenzy if it had lost it.
This reflects every WE desire to be allowed to bathe in the cauldron its presence drives them to even greater feats of blood lust to prove their worthyness

3. all WE units including the cauldron within 18" gain MR(1)
This reflects the WE inate hatred of magicians they simply donot believe they can be affected

4. Cauldron causes terror
Fear would be better fluff wise but has no range which is necessary on something that can move, so terror - no one wants to end up in here who ever they are.

5. Counts as a war machine for hth/shooting/magic purposes. The crew can never pursue despite being frenzied.
Common sense

6. Cauldron itself can never be damaged
How do you hurt an iron bath?

7. Crew 2 WE and a Hag
I kept this as, it represents a couple of lowly WE to collect the blood and senior hag to ensure the correct temperature and rights are performed. Though I quite like the idea of 2 hags bringing it in line with the 2 crew of the reaper.

8. Points.... Here's where I've gone a bit radical the cauldron is taken as an upgrade to a WE unit making them count as 2 special choices. It is deloyed as a separate unit and cannot move. Cost: 175points

Basis of points is;
2 WE @ 13pts
1 Hag @ 25pts
MR(1) @ 25pts
Frenzy regain @ 50pts
6+ ward save @ 46pts (based on an a unit of 20 models+ 3 crew @ 2pts, 6+ ward, saves 1 in 6 so priced at 16.7% of a WE's cost)
total 172pts

This is only really useful if you take more than 1 unit of WE so I've gone for a low points value also it seriously restricts your special troop choices to 1 or 2 other units in average games(<=2000pts). This type of upgrade follows the Tomb King and Dwarf model (Casket & Anvil).

look forward to seeing more ideas comments etc

K

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Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:34 am
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I agree that, at the moment, the Cauldron seems to be to expensive. Also, I feel that the current effect isn't noticable enough to really sacrifice a rare slot for the cauldron. So I think the Cauldron (as is) should be reduced in cost, and then (to make it interesting enough), it should be upgraded (including point revision).
(@ Langmann: What did you meant with a 40-points upgrade? On top of current points, or a 40 points "deficiency" that have to be compensated?)

As said before, Witch Elves and Sorceresses do no exactly like eachother. So I think the Cauldron should encourage you to leave your Sorceresses at home. Thus I am in favour of the Cauldron generating one or more Dispel dice and/or dispensing Magic Resistance. After all, this would reduce the necessity of a 'defensive' Sorceress.
For the same reason, I am against the Cauldron including any bound spells. In order to profit fully from such spells, you'll need some magic support, otherwise you'll seldom breach your opponent's magic defenses. A Cauldron with bound spells would therefore require you to take more Sorceresses in order to take full advantage of it.

Furthermore, the Cauldron should indeed function to boost Witch Elves. However, I would retain some small bonus given to other Dark Elves. This reduces the necessity of taking as much Witch Elves as possible in order to profit from the expensive Cauldron.

Some reactions:
Dark Alliance wrote:
How about, the presence of the Cauldron limits the effect of frenzy in that it effects the extra attack but negates the forced charge as the WEs will not move too far away from the Cauldron involuntarily

Doesn't sound to great... if their desire to remain close to the Cauldron is great enough to overcome Frenzy, then it would be great enough for them never to move voluntarilu out of reach as well, preventing them to move further then 24" away from the Cauldron[/quote]

Keledron wrote:
a big bath! The place where every WE wants to bathe to rejuvinate

It's a bit more then that... Otherwise, it wouldn't be brought to the battlefield. It is not likely that the Witch Elves will be bathing in the middle of the battle.

Keledron wrote:
Though I quite like the idea of 2 hags bringing it in line with the 2 crew of the reaper.

Could be fun, though I think two hags would get into a fight over who is in charge. Seriously, though, the crew should not be changed: the model is sold with three WEs, and GW won't change that.

Keledron wrote:
How do you hurt an iron bath?

:) Drill a hole in it?
(Of course, the Cauldron cannot be hurt, but change the reason(some charm or such)


Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:30 pm
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Shade
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I like most of your new ideas, except giving the cauldron some kind of bound spell. This would only encourage the use of sorceresses since you need them to distract enemy magic and get the bound spells off. Fluff wise it wouldn't be good since Khaine despises magic.

I came up with my own suggestions:


The army of Khaine:

Witch elves count as a core choice when the cauldron is in an army. At least one witch elf unit must be taken.

Cult enmity:

When a cauldron is present, many witch elves accompany it, so sorceresses generally avoid these witch elf gatherings. High sorceresses are not allowed when a cauldron is included in the army. In addition, the anti magical energies of khaine who surround the cauldron give the cauldron a magical resistance of (2) and adds a dispel dice to the army.

Red Fury

All witch elves and assassins within 24 inch get a 6+ ward save. Witch elves within 24 inch will always remain frenzied, and any witch elves who lost frenzy will regain frenzy when they enter the cauldron's range. (note: no more reroll to wound for all units)

The Favor of Khaine:

Any unit which can be seen by the cauldron can be chosen to enjoy the favor's effects. The Favor of Khaine must be given to another unit each turn.
The favored unit gets reroll to wound and reroll to hit. If the favored unit is witch elf, than any fallen witch elves can return on the roll of a 5+ after they have fallen casualty (so it doesn't count as a save. Note that the rejuvenation of the witch elves only happens after break tests and panic tests are solved. Any fleeing witch elf units cannot be benefit from the rejuvenation.

I think the cauldron should keep it's terror, but it shouldn't be priced to high for it, since it's an unmovable object, and thus the benefits of terror will only be handy when the enemy gets close to the cauldron.

I'm not sure about the points cost but I think 200-250 points should be fine.



I'm really getting excited about this idea of the army of Khaine. It says in the fluff that large numbers of witch always accompany the cauldron, so I think that justifies the core slot. We will actually start to see competitive cult of khaine lists.

With the sect enmity rule players will really have to choose between going magic heavy (without a cauldron, allowing a high sorceress) , or not (with a cauldron), and going more combat oriented.

I'm not sure if the favor of khaine will be to powerful, but the rule has at least some restrictions to it. Because the favor can't be given to the same unit 2 turns in a row, the player won't be able to get all his eggs in one basket. Also the rejuvenation rule encourages to use the favor on witch elves, so the player won’t always use the favor on his tooled up cold one unit. They would be really unit to be reckoned with.

And of course the crew is still easy to kill with gutter runners and the like, so all these effects can be taken out.


What do you think?

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Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:57 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Ok I am glad people are shooting down the bound magic spells. As Purple rightly points out, you need sorceresses to take advantage of bound magic. Sad but true. People had been emailing me bound spells all week for it and I wanted to rid myself of that.

I am favoring the idea of MR and ward saves. Regeneration is not fluffy as they would have to be stuffed back into the cauldron, and they don't do this in battle.

How about a version of dispell dice similar to anvil of doom's ability to raise casting dice. 1d6 dispel dice generated each turn instead...

I agree with points reduction to 175 or so. Thus the extra 40 points brings it back to about 205. I think it should cost something significant and do something significant, but if anyone doesn't think so we can consider that as well.

I am nervous about witches become core choices. I have visions of all witch elf armies with CoK running around. However perhaps instead witches becoming 2 for 1 special choices instead, I don't know. Perhaps witches core is the way to go.

Anyhow keep going.

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Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:59 pm
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Here's a few options:

+1 attack to every Dark Elf Unit within 24".

Every Dark Elf Unit within 24" always strikes first in hand-to-hand combat.

Target one Dark Elf unit each turn within 24". that unit becomes frenzied for that turn.

Target one Dark Elf unit each turn within 24". that unit causes fear for that turn.

In addition to the regular red fury in our army book the units can re-roll failed to hit as well.

Regular red fury but in every round of combat.

+1 to combat resolution to every unit within 24".

Generates D6 dispel dice per turn in addition to its original abilities.

All Dark Elf units within 24" are unbreakable (this would require a massive points increase though)

Bound spell from the cauldron that can be cast on any enemy unit on the tabletop (not in close combat.) Use the 3" template. All models hit suffer 1 S5 hit with no armour save allowed. If a unit takes 1 or more casulaties they have to take a panic test. This would cost around 60 points. Can only be used every other turn.


Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:25 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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Witch Elves becoming core is not so bad an idea, after all your choice of General in a Chaos army dictates your range of core units so a precedent is there.

MR and ward saves are good ideas and I like the d6 dispel dice idea. I was having problems myself with the fluff around bound spells, just doesn't fit.

/\\//\'s idea of striking first - maybe you get to choose 1 unit which is allowed to always strike first if in range. That lends a helping hand to the issue surrounding Executioners too.


Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:22 pm
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Well see we can compare this unit to only two units currently out there, the casket of souls and the anvil of doom being both inanimate. And since those greatly beat the heck out of the cauldron of blood we need to think how to make it better, we need to maintain balance, and still it needs to be worth its rare slot equal to reapers or black guard so we need to think hard about what the other two have; the anvil has four very nice runic powers (bound spells) and the Casket of Souls basically uses banshees howl on anyone that can see it... now I was thinking to put us up to par with the others, we need to make this a feared unit on the battle field, so heres a list of stuff I think would be good, and im not saying I want all these rules to apply to the cauldron.

- Witch elves as core

- +2 to all dispel attempts within cauldron range or magic resist of 1

- make hits be randomized like other war machines and possible have 4+ ward save or minus to hit in close combat or shooting

- some sort of bound magic area of effect spell kind of like soul stealer with a power level of 8 or so to represent the sacrifices

- possibly have it summon some sort of fiend of khaine that is a pretty powerful deamon, when the COB "sacrifice" enough with something like the bound spell above or when witch elves "sacrifice" enough

- +1 to the Strength of witch elves within range of the COB

- -1 for opponents to hit anything within range of the COB to represent the sight of the glowing horrific statue

- +25 points for assassins and witch elf hags(or maybe all characters :P ) to spend in the temple of khaine

- adds a certain number of dispel dice to the army

-be given a choice of choosing a single unit to be frenzy and make that choice unit not be allowed characters for the same reasons as witch elves, I can see it now ... the knights of khaine... :D

- units persued by witch elves and killed are +10 to victory points to represent sacrifice

- some kind of animosty if there are sorceresses in your army for realism

-make it maybe give hags spells that effect units

-giving all friendly units 2+ killing blow!!!! muhahahahahhaha ;) (j/k.. or am I!)

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Those are just some ideas to add to the pile though

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:50 am
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I think we should drop the use of bound spells. Like it was said before, bounds spells encourage the use of sorceresses, and sorceresses and khaine don't really mix.

Also if we were to give the CoB strong anti magic support for the army, the use of sorceresses should be seriously discouraged, otherwise we would be getting a huge pile of dispel dice, ala khorne.
I think the best way to go is not to allow high sorceresses in an army with a CoB, and you can have only 1 sorceress/master of the wild per 1000 points.
I think d6 dispell dice is a little to much. How about D3 or just 2 dispel dice per turn?
Do we want the dispel dice randomly given, or a regular amount?

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:33 am
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Much said in so short a time. My opinions on them are;

Bound spell - definately not! No fluff even vaugly suggests this.

Affecting non WE - no fluff again only WE and Morathi (who is arguably a WE) use the cauldron but the assassin is a possibility as he is ToK trained but currently there is no fluff support.

Extras dispell dice - encourages sorceresses usage in either form and just feels like someone is trying to get a banner of sorcery into the list. Gav and Co. would see straight through it in about 0.000001 seconds. They're !conf! not stupid.

Magic resistance to WE - I still like this has limited effects overall and fits the fluf to a limited extent.

Bonus to hit/wound - doesnot fit fluff - the cauldrons powers are restorative.

Sect Emnity - expansion on this is an interesting move - I like the idea that in an army that contains the cauldron then no high sorceress may be taken or that sorceresses become a 0-1 choice like the Garisson Army list.

WE move to core - now your looking at a new list which I personally think we donot want to go towards - moving them to core opens up too many other abuses - mmh...... 3 units of WE and 4 units of CoK anyone! yes I know this happpens in the TK Army it doesn't mean we should do it.

Ward Save
- all seem happy.

Assassin

The inclusion of the assassin is an interesting idea but;
He can already buy a better ward from the ToK or one as good from the common list. Giving him MR again doesn't feel right. Including him here looks like we are just trying to get extra powerful assassins on top of the changes we have already suggested for him.

If I take a cauldron then he gets a 6+ ward MR(1) and KB for free.........No chance!

Finally there is no real fluff support for any of this the only real link between assassins and witch elves is that assassin are chosen (stolen) by and cared for during training by the temple not controlled by it that is the right of the Witch King - though his mum seems to exert a fair degree of influence here.

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:09 pm
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I will not (yet) give rule suggestion. I can off course stir your thought: I will try to put down the fluff.

What is the cauldron?
- It is a personal gift from Khaine. Witch elves crones bath in it to regain their youth. It probably has some darkish powers that have not yet been revealed. Khaine wasn't known for his sympathy, murder was its focus. Not a god that has any healing or restoration powers.

What kind of effect has the cauldron on enemies?
- they probably fear it, a cauldron filled with blood of the dark elves former enemies isn't the most pleasant thing to look upon to.
- They probably are somewhat distracted by the sight of such a tremendous artifact.

What kind of effect has it on dark elf warriors?
- The dark elves feel honoured that they may fight in a battle where the cauldron are brought into.

What kind of effect has it on witch elves?
- The witch elves are in total extasy when they fight along side the cauldron.

What is Khaine's relationship to the witch elves?
- He is the lord of murder, a jealous one. Don't expect him to be mercifull when one of his chosen units is wiped out.

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:28 pm
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Sect Enmity: I wouldn't disallow Sorceresses in an army with the Cauldron; this would make the list rather restrictive. I was thinking along the lines of allowing no High Sorceress, and/or limiting the number of Sorceresses.
I think that the Cauldron should offer enough magic protection (perhaps when combine with the Seal of Ghrond) that you could seriously choose to leave your scroll caddy at home.

Witch Elves as core: Don't really like this, since it would more or less remove the obigation to take 'real' core choices (other then the ever-present Dark Riders).

Again, I think that in order to increase the usefullness of the Cauldron, it should do something other than boosting Witch Elves. I feel that would make it rather restrictive. So I'd like it to help the entire army. This need not be done by actually boosting other units. I can imagine the Cauldron hampering the enemy's effeciveness because of its horrifying image. To illustrate, some brainstorm ideas (not well thought out ideas, just to illustrate what I mean):
- Under certain conditions, the Cauldron could cause a panic test in enemy units. (like some effects of the Screaming Bell)
or
- Under certain conditions (first round of combat, Ld test), the Cauldron could reduce enemy WS and/or BS
or
- Under certain conditions, the Cauldron could prevent a unit form moving/charging.

Something like that (but better thought out and more balanced). It would help the entire army, without actually boosting non-Witch Elves (thus no collission with the fluff). It also represents the fear/distraction that Nameless One has referred to.


Sat Apr 12, 2003 11:30 am
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Quote:
- Under certain conditions, the Cauldron could cause a panic test in enemy units. (like some effects of the Screaming Bell)


This was a really good idea, maybe we could make it into some kind of Screaming Bell, not as powerful of course.

It could have options like: Cause panic test in an enemy regiment, re-roll failed to wound rolls on one of your own units for the rest of your turn, frenzy on one of your units for the rest of your turn.

Just some thoughts.

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Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:19 pm
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Purple wrote:
Sect Enmity: I wouldn't disallow Sorceresses in an army with the Cauldron; this would make the list rather restrictive. I was thinking along the lines of allowing no High Sorceress, and/or limiting the number of Sorceresses.
I think that the Cauldron should offer enough magic protection (perhaps when combine with the Seal of Ghrond) that you could seriously choose to leave your scroll caddy at home.


That would indeed be nice, but the cauldron's points would have to be increased allot. The sorceress is worth a character slot, and she generates Dispel dice for the army. The CoB would be suplying both these values of the sorceress, so a point increase would be in place. However with such a anti magic boon, there will be few points left to spend on the cauldron for the other stuff, and that something we must avoid. So I think restricting the number of sorceresses and giving the CoB 2 or 1 extra dispel dice would be enough.


Purple wrote:
- Under certain conditions, the Cauldron could cause a panic test in enemy units. (like some effects of the Screaming Bell)

I like that. Maybe the enemy should take a panic test when they lose a single model when in sight of the cauldron (seeing there fellow soldier's soul being sucked up in the cauldron or something)

Purple wrote:
- Under certain conditions (first round of combat, Ld test), the Cauldron could reduce enemy WS and/or BS


I like this as well, I don't know how to implement this though...

Purple wrote:
- Under certain conditions, the Cauldron could prevent a unit form moving/charging.

This would be very powerful, and it is something like dominion. I think this would only be right under very strict conditions, but I dislike the idea overall.

Purple wrote:
Something like that (but better thought out and more balanced). It would help the entire army, without actually boosting non-Witch Elves (thus no collission with the fluff). It also represents the fear/distraction that Nameless One has referred to.


Yes I guess fear and distraction are better, than giving the entire army extra combat abilities, like rerolling to wound. However you must still remember, the CoB is essentially a witch elf unit, so I think it should give them most of the CoB's bonus.
I think the army of khaine rule, isn't such a bad one. However, I do see the problems with mass WE and COK in one army so maybe it should only make WE a 2 for 1 special choice, like langmann said.

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Sat Apr 12, 2003 3:40 pm
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Just a quick question. What were the Cauldron's rules in previous editions? Any good stuff there that we could use now?


Sat Apr 12, 2003 3:51 pm
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I much prefer keeping it simple.
Same points cost - but range 24", same effects as currently with exception that Cauldron adds D6 dispel dice to Dark Elf side per turn (as long as Cauldron guardians still alive).

Possible addition - All casualties caused by Witch Elf Hags add +1 dispel dice to DE side in next turn, per casualty (as they are dragged away for sacrifice on the Cauldron's altar).

Possible addition 2: All of the above, but DE army containing cauldron may not contain any Sorceress or wizard at all.

Just a few ideas - I see the Cauldron as being very much a symbol of Khaine, and as such makes the DE units harder in close combat, as well as effectively suppressing enemy magic (to keep things up close and personal). Very nice against specialist magic armies, and High Elves.


Sat Apr 12, 2003 5:13 pm
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How about getting slaves to move the cauldron of blood? :)

I mean how do they get it to the battlefield inthe first place?


Sun Apr 13, 2003 1:39 pm
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Hello friends,

atm i'm not able to fully support the revision as i'm moving and the rest of my time is consumed by my company... (i'll be back to full "support strength" around mid may).

As some of you probably now i posted some stuff about the cauldron some time ago (in the thread "dark elf army analysis").

I stand by my word that i think the cauldron should primarily help the witch elf units (which are overrated, imho) and serve as a focus point (beautiful centre piece AND army background build around it).

I'd keep all the rules the cauldron has right now.

In addition, the cauldron increases the range to 24".
In addition, shooting against the cauldron is split as per war machine rules.
In addition, the cauldron gives all WE units (and WE characters like the assassin) the effect of witch brew.
In addition, the cauldron gives MR (xx) to all WE units (and characters).
In addition, the cauldron's crew keeps the 4+ ward save even in HtH.

Rules clarification: If a WE character has the "dance of doom" gift and a functioning cauldron is present and in range the ward save increases by 1 (instead of a 5+ ward and a 6+ ward the model gets one 4+ save).

The cauldron should cost around 175 points.

This may seem very low on the points cost side but remember that the cauldron as it is right now is just not worth it. If we look further and compare it to the casket of souls we see that the Khemri army gets a very useful "cauldron" for even less points.

I feel that all the above is along the lines of the ideas the designers had when they created the cauldron and maybe my thoughts are still not far enough.

A rare choice at around 200 points and a centre piece model (both, fluff wise and on the gaming table) should have a great impact on the game.

At 3 rare choices at about 200 points each (2 reapers, hydra and cauldron) the decision should be a hard one.

If the cauldron focuses on witch elves we could create a good choice for a nice theme army. Not overly useful for cavalry armies or core infantry armies we could bring back a successful elite infantry army (which is, atm pretty much impossible regardless of the race or army one plays).

Several ideas mentioned above go into the same direction (like the "favour of Khaine" idea, etc).

I, too am of the opinion that we should concentrate on attacking power for HtH units, witch elves in particular and anti-magic (the absolute bane of WEs).

More attacks, better attacks, fear and anti magic are good themes to build around the cauldron.

Always remember:
If i pay ~200 points and sacrifice a rare "rare" slot i pretty much want a return of investment. And not just another good looking piece of metal...

All yours
Zorn

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The dead shall outnumber the living, and those that remain shall be dragged in chains to the pits of Zharr to toil for the greater glory of Hashut.

And all will be blessed Darkness.

Hashut! Vorgrund! Zharr-Naggrund!


Sun Apr 13, 2003 5:36 pm
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Noble
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I've been talking with a Wood Elf player about the Cauldron, and we came up with the following:

The Cauldron is kept as in it is, with the following change:
- Randomized shooting
- Red Fury applies to Witch Elves only
- Sect Enmity: An army with the Cauldron cannot contain any High Sorceresses
- The Cauldron provides two Dispel Dice
- Any enemy wishing to charge an Dark Elf unit within range of the Cauldron must pass a Ld test or hit only on 6's in the first round of combat.

The idea is to have the Cauldron reduce the need for a Sorceress in the army (though not limiting them to 0-1, since that would be to restrictive in bigger battes).
In addition, the Cauldron is meant to have the opponents feel 'uneasy'; I tried to represent this with a Ld-test similar to a fear-test when charging DE. This specific option should complement DE tactics quite well.
This version of the Cauldron might be a bit more expensive then it was (the Wood Elf player thinks it should be about 225 pts), so I am a bit the required 40 pts upgrade, but is the best I could come up with.

To remain at current point cost, a Dispel die could be dropped, but I feel that would be a shame since it would offer to little magic protection to really forfeit a Sorceress.

Alternative for the Ld test: to represent opponents feeling uneasy within range of the Cauldron, any enemy unit within range has it's Ld lowered by 1.


Sun Apr 13, 2003 9:58 pm
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Hunter Of The Night
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Nice ideas here. Partcularly the hit on 6's thing. Perhaps a generation of D3 dispel dice per turn instead of just the fixed 2. Also if the red fury only affects Witch Elves then I think there should be something to make them more accessible such 2 for 1 special or perhaps even core.


Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:27 pm
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Shade
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Location: Netherlands, Huizen
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Good ideas purple. I think that is the way to go with the cauldron. However, I agree with AVA that witch elves should be numerous in an army with a cauldron. Making WE core is to much I think, as Langmann pointed out earlier (Lots of COK + Lots of WE :roll: ). Thus 2 WE units for 1 special choice would be better.

No High sorceresses in the army, and you can only take 1 Master of the Wild/sorceress per 1000 points should be strict enough on the magic department.

The leadership rule is good. However I think neither of them is effective enough as they stand, so I think the best way to go is to merge the 2 rules in one. So the enemy has to take an LD test if it wants to charge a DE unit at -1 LD. Troops who are imune to psycholgy shouldn't be effected.

I think 2 DD is good. 1 DD is to few, and doesn't really compensate the lack of sorceresses. Having a random amount of DD would be discouraging the use of the CoB. Players prefer reliable units, and I don't think randomnes really befits the DE character.

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Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:32 am
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/\\// wrote:
Also if the red fury only affects Witch Elves then I think there should be something to make them more accessible such 2 for 1 special or perhaps even core.


The reason to limit Red Fury to Witch Elves was the combination with 6's to hit. If every unit in the army is affected by Red Fury, then a charging enemy might have to hit on 6's and face a re-roll to wound... That would make the DE perhaps a bit to charge-resilient. (Don't know, just a feeling)

Increasing the number of Witch Elves in the army would again increase the number of units with both benefits. If we think that is not a problem, then I would propose to keep Red Fury as is (affecting all DE) instead of adding more Witch Elf units. I wouldn't want the Cauldron to become something that is only effective if most of your army is Witch Elf.


Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:14 am
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