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Dark Elf Slaver List 
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Go at it. :D

You can include slaves as a unit.

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:53 pm
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Hunter Of The Night
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Quick question. Will they be making new models for the unit?


I think the slave mob should be around 20-40 strong. Be a core choice and perhaps only 0-1 (we know how Dark Elf Nobles don't like to kill too many of their slaves :) ) Also Slave unit don't count towards the minimum core choices of troops.

They are controlled by Slave Drivers. 1 for 20-29 Slaves, 2 for 30-39 Slaves, 3 for 40 Slaves.


Formation
___________
|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_______Slaves
|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|
|_|____________Slave Driver




Slavedriver

M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8

Weapon and armour: 2 whips (counts as 2 hand weapons)

Special Rules: Slave Proctection, Slavedriver

Slave Protection - Slavedrivers always are at the back of the Slave unit and are used to using the slaves as protection frm missile fire. Therefore the Slavedrivers cannot be hit by missile fire shooting the Slave unit from the front or sides. If the unit is shot at from the rear then the driver is hit on a 5+ as normal characters are.

Slavedriver - Slavedrivers use whips, threats and curses to drive their dispirited slaves onward. To represent this, the Slave unit always uses the Slavedriver's leadership for any leadership based tests (unless he is slain.)



Slaves

M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 0 0 3 3 1 3 1 3

Weapons and armour: none.

Special rules: Movement, Slaves, Freedom, Shooting, Dark Elves.

Movement - Slaves are tortured and often drugged by the Dark Elves to perform horrific tasks. This means that the mass of slaves is very unpredictable and can go from a shambling walk to a sprinting herd. To represent this the slaves move 2D6" in each movement phase. If they encounter difficult terrain then take off the appropriate distance as if the unit were marching using the Slaves normal movement charicteristic of 4. Because of their training the slavedivers always move the same distance as the Slave units and always is placed in base-to-base contact behind the last rank.

Slaves - Slaves are forced to do everything they do by the Dark Elves and so will immediately try to escape their evil clutches whenever an opportunity arises. If the Slave unit panics then it cannot rally and will flee 2D6" in a random direction each turn determined by the scatter dice. If this happens then the Slavedriver is assumed to have been killed by the mas of Slaves.
In addition if a Slave unit gets into combat with friend or foe, it will not fight the enemy, rather it will mill about in a confused state. Some begging to be taken back home, others just clinging to them in the knowledge that they are not Dark Elves. To represent this an enemy unit in contact with a Slave unit cannot move or shoot and any Wizards in the unit cannot cast spells unless the unit rolls a 4+ on a D6 at the start o its movement phase. If they manage this they are immediately placed their normal movement rate directly away from the Slaves and can turn to face any direction. this counts as moving for that turn.

Freedom - If a Slave unit is freed from its Slavedrivers and reaches a table edge by the end of the battle then it counts as being freed. In this case the opponent gets victory points.

Shooting - the Dark Elves are allowed to shoot at Slave units as they couldn't care less about them! They can shoot at Slave units in combat with the enemy aswell with shots being worked out who they hit. If 5 or more Slaves are killed then they form a large pile of difficult ground. Leave the models where they are (lay them down if you want to) and count this as very difficult ground. Dark Elf troops however only count it as difficult ground as they are used to walking among the rotting carcases of Slaves. If a Slave unit is killed by Dark Elf or enemy shooting, neither side get any victory points.

Dark Elves - Dark Elves treat the Slaves appalingly and do not care if they die. To represent this, Panicking or fleeing Slave units never affect nearby Dark Elf units. Finally if Slaves need to take a leadership test on their own leadership value they cannot use the army general. However if they can take it on the slavedriver's leadership value then he can use the general's leadership.


Well there's a slave unit. Dunno about points value and I think they my have too many special rules but tell me what you think.


Fri Apr 11, 2003 8:59 pm
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You mean as in an appendix army list? So there are restrictions on the list? If so expect a list this week. :P

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:19 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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I don't think they should be limited to one unit. I think they should be more tactically able. Rather treated like skaven slaves. They should be able to have a WS, even if it is 1 or 2.

Perhaps should be unbreakable though... hmmm would have to be limited in size then.

I do think there are too many special rules here, but I do like the part about clinging to the enemy. HOWEVER, I think most enemy troops would start to attack them then just to save themselves. In which case the slaves would have to fight back. Caught between a rock and a hard place eh...

Good fluff and ideas AVA, lets see what others say. :D :D

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:26 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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I don't think more than 3 special rules should be allowed. Try and remain in that constraint. Rules already in the manual such as unbreakable or perhaps stubborn (reflecting the slavemaster's ability to keep them under control without caring about them dying) are preferred. That, however, remains debateable. A brilliant special rule idea is always wanted!

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:37 pm
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LORDS:____________________________________________

Slave Master.........................................................Points/model: 125

____________M_WS_BS_S_T_W_I_A_Ld
Slave Master--5---7---6---4-3--3--8-4--10

Weapons: Whip(hand weapon)

Options:

- May choose either an additional hand weapon (+6 pts),halberd (+6 pts), great weapon (+6 pts) or a mancatcher (+25 pts).
- May also be armed with a repeater crossbow (+15 pts).
- May wear either light armour (+3 pts) or heavy armour (+6 pts), may be given a Sea Dragon Cloak (+9 pts), and may also carry a shield (+3 pts)
- May ride either a Cold One (+39 pts), a Dark Steed (+18 pts), a Dark Pegasus (+55 pts), or a Manticore (+190 pts).
- May choose magic items from the Common or Dark Elf magic items lists, with a maximum total value of 100 points.

Special Rules:
Hate Weaklings;Expert Capturer
___________________________________________________________
HEROES:


Slave Driver........................................................Points/model: 70

____________M_WS_BS_S_T_W_I_A_Ld
Slave Driver--5---6---6---4-3--2--7-3--9

Weapons: Whip(hand weapon)

Options:

- May choose either an additional hand weapon (+4 pts),halberd (+4 pts), great weapon (+4 pts) or a mancatcher (+20 pts).
- May also be armed with a repeater crossbow (+10 pts).
- May wear either light armour (+2 pts) or heavy armour (+4 pts), may be given a Sea Dragon Cloak (+6 pts), and may also carry a shield (+2 pts)
- May ride either a Cold One (+26 pts), a Dark Steed (+12 pts),or a Dark Pegasus (+55 pts).
- May choose magic items from the Common or Dark Elf magic items lists, with a maximum total value of 50 points.

Special Rules:
Hate Weaklings;Expert Capturer

0-1 Sorceress( see dark elf army book pg. 27) in addition she Hate Weaklings


___________________________________________________________

CORE

Slaves__________________________Points/model:4

_____M--WS--BS--S--T--W--I--A--Ld_______
Slave 4----2----2--2--3---1--1--1--5

Unit Size: 20- 40

Weapons and Armour:Slaves are not given weapons so they pick up random objects, counts as hand wepons.

Special Rules: Insanity; Heap of Bodies; Worthless and Pathetic
____________________________________________

Insanity: The slaves captured by the druchii are held in dark, damp and cold dungeons where they are tortured ruthlessly and injected with vile chemicals that leave them with little or no state of mind. On the battle field when a unit of slaves suffers 25% casualties from the players own shooting or magic the unit of slaves collapses from the stress apon his/her body and counts as slain for the remainder of the battle and forms a heap of bodies the length and width of the regiment.

Heap of Bodies: When a slave dies his malnourished body is cold, hard ,and difficult to tread through therefor when a heap of bodies is formed from insanity it counts as being very difficult scenery for the purpose of movement.

Worthless and Pathetic: The Druchii could care less about the condition of pathetic slaves therfor nearby friendly units do no suffer from any panic caused by nearby slaves. Druchii slaves are subject to panic only when 25% of the mad slaves are killed by friendly dark elf shooting or magic to represent the sheer cruelty of the druchii. Also it should be noted that the slaves do not count towards the total victory points for the enemy and the unit does not count towards the minimum core requirements for the army.


Corsairs(see dark elf army book pg. 28) in addition they Hate Weaklings and Expert Capturers

Repeater Crossbowmen (see dark elf army book pg. 28) in addition they Hate Weaklings and Expert Capturers

____________________________________________________________
SPECIAL

Dark Riders (see dark elf army book pg. 28) in addition they Hate Weaklings and Expert Capturers

0-1 Shades (see dark elf army book pg. 29) in addition they Hate Weaklings and Expert Capturers

0-1 Cold one Knights (see dark elf army book pg. 30) in addition they Hate Weaklings and Expert Capturers

Giant Slave Hounds_______________________________Points/model:20

_________M--WS--BS--S--T--W--I--A--Ld_______
Hound---- 7----4----3--4--4---1--4--1--6

Unit Size: 5-15

Weapons and Armour:teeth and claws(counts as two hand weapons)

Special Rules: Cause Fear, Ravenous, Expert Capturers ,Beasts, Skirmishers.

Ravenous: adds +D6 " to pusuit rolls of targets with T3 or below

____________________________________________________________
RARE

Reaper Bolt Throwers (see dark elf army book pg. 32)

0-1 Harpies (see dark elf army book pg. 30)

____________________________________________________________
Equipment and additional Rules:

Mancatcher: A cruel and deadly weapon , the man catcher is ususally used in coaching around weak slaves and killing those that are worthless. This weapon benefits from the rules for killing blow for targets with Strength less then the wielder and adds +1 to Strength.

Hate Weaklings: Dark elves who are subject to Hate Weaklings, may reroll missed hits in the first round of combat against targets with Strength 3 or less.

Expert Capturers: When a unit is destroyed from persuit by units with the Expert Capturers rule, that unit is "Captured"(counts as slain) and counts as +25 victory points unless the unit that captured it is killed before the battle is over.

_________________________________________________________


Well theres my list :D , critique all you like, I really spent some time on it. For the hounds you can use wolves or perhaps the newer chaos hounds, I think this list is pretty good and really fluffy.

PS: I dont feel the slaves needed controllers, I felt them having no state of mind and just obeying the dark elves by habit was good enough reason for them not to run away , knowing they will be shot, so I kind of looked at them like zombies.

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:21 pm
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Okay, before I come up with anything I would like to know a couple of things:

-Is this 'Slaver list' you talk about a totally indepent list, ala 'city of the damned list'?
If so this would mean core and special would have to be messed up, to make it different from the origanal list.

-Are slaves going to be in the regular DE army?

-Are slaves stuff for the revision (and thus appear in the WD), or will they come in the new book?

Thanks

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Fri Apr 11, 2003 11:15 pm
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I assume its going to be a second list like our city guard list , thats how I took "slaver list"

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Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:01 am
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Master of the Red Legion
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Well, first off, how are these slaves getting into battle? If they are being drugged out of their minds, they should act more or less like spawn and unbreakable swarm. They would move forward a "random" mount, be unbreakable, and possibly skirmish, yet at the same time be subject to having to move towards the nearest enemy unit. The drugging essentially eliminates most of the special rules and need for handlers, as makes them not the most tacticaly sound kind of unit (what do you expect from slaves). As said before, they should be one of those units that is core but doesn't count towards core and limited likely to 0-2 with max size of 4 bases (if done that way). Also, druchii units should be able to shoot into combat as in the ife is cheap rule.

Also, we should keep in mind that the slaving army should be very similar to the raiding force, where corsairs and DR are core. Harpies wouldn't exactly feature prominently and neither would a cauldron of black guard (so omits for those units). shades woud be special along with warriors and witches and execs, and RBTs as rares with chariots and COK (keeping hte army rather infantry based with fast cav support).

There should be no character alterations as that just complicates matters too much and is not really necessary.

However, as a special addition, each unit could, instead of a champion, have a slaver. Its really the same thing, but with the slaver, the unit could collect extra VPs (say 25) for units that are run down. This also puts the herald into greater use. However, this option is no longer available should the champion be killed.

Anyways, just some thougts and opinions.

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Sat Apr 12, 2003 3:46 am
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I would of made the slave unit a move random direction and distance movement but that would be stupid, there would be no point to fielding a slave unit if the were random like that unless they were kind of like squigs but I dont want to have to have any kind of slave driver with them, maybe thats me but it doesnt look right, it looks right with rat ogres and squigs but slaves and elves just make it look like they are fighting hehe and if they skirmished the unit would get too big and its basically to be used for a fodder type unit. But you need to be able to push fodder unit forward so they draw fire, maybe they need handlers, i dunno, I just dont think it looks right.

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Sat Apr 12, 2003 4:15 am
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The only point I really dislike with your list is no beastmaster, they are supposed to be slave chiefs.

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Sat Apr 12, 2003 6:26 am
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I think this slave list should be very different from the orignal list. I think the best to do this is to change the purpose of the army. The origanal DE list is about destroying the enemy, I think this one should be about capturing the enemy. The more of the enemy you capture the more, the more slaves you get. So the main purpose of the army should be profit. So I suggest the following:
A slaver list can have any amount of slaves in its army. For every model the Slavers capture above the origanal amount of slaves in the army you get victory points. The number of slaves you capture is equal to the entire unit strength of the units you captured. So a single infantry model counts as one captured slave, a cavalry base counts as 2.
To capture a model you must pursue it succesfully, or let it crumble in combat. (lets just say the sorcresses in the slaver list harvest the magical powers that are released when undead/deamons die). Models slain by the slavers dont count toward the enire unit strength of the unit. So if a unit consists of 20 and you kill 7 and then pursue them, you have captured slaves worth of 13 unit strength.
So lets say you brought 60 (60 US) slaves with your army, of which 45 have died in battle. In battle you captured 65 US worth in slaves, so the difference would be 20, giving the Druchii 20 (US) times 15 (VP) (for instance, I'm not sure how much points you should get per US) extra VP's. However the total US of the slaves can never rise twice above the orignal. So an army with 60 US slaves can only have a maximum of 120 US in slaves after the battle.

Of course the slaves should be quite useful to make the the Druchii player use them in his army. This rule above also forces the druchii player to actually care about his slaves, since the more slaves he gets the more extra VP's he gets.
However to make this rule of mine work, slaves in your own army should have some rules that forces the druchii player to actually take slaves in his army and use them in battle. Otherwise the Slaver player could just keep back his slave units, so the rest of the army gets a huge profit, while no slaves are getting killed.
Ill leave that to the rest of you guys, for now. I don't think making slaves stubborn or unbreakable is a very good idea though. They should be more similar to the skaven slaves, only more aggresive, maybe make them immune to psychology and let them always charge the enemy, while keeping their cost low (3-4 points).

Just some thoughts.

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Sat Apr 12, 2003 8:51 am
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Personally I think the slaves would work best if kept simple:

War Slaves - 5 pts each

M BS WS S T I A Ld
5 2 2 2 3 2 1 2

UNBREAKABLE whilst accompanied by at least one slavedriver/beastmaster

10-30 slaves + 3 slavedrivers

SLAVEDRIVER - same stats as Hydra goaders, 10 pts, but may be deployed in rear rank (as can Beastmasters).

Nice unit for holding up nasty units - Knights/Stegadons/Rat Ogres/Trolls etc.


Sat Apr 12, 2003 5:30 pm
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CLARIFICATION


As an aside to our discussion I mentioned the idea of slaves to Gav and how they seem to fit within the DE fluff. He agreed with the idea in principle and said he could see the possibility of a Dark Elf Slaver Army as an appendix list.

This is not part of the Revision as such, it is part of the longer term development of the Dark Elf army. The issue of whether new miniatures would be produced was not discussed so just let your imagination work on the principle of either slave units or a complete list which would include regular unit choices too.

Be sure to explain your ideas fully and include fluff to back it up.


Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:40 pm
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I've been having trouble coming up with ideas for Slaves.

First off, aren't the slves all suposed to be of different races and therefore mixed ability? How do we represent this? would it be easier just o have them all the same race?

Secondly, what if the slaves face their own race? Surely they'd try and escape back to freedom if they got the chance? Should there be a special rule for this? (This would obviousely mean that there would have to be race types of slaves.)

Will the slaves fight the enemy or will they simply provide a screen for Dark Elf troops?

Will the slaves be drugged and so immune to psychology?


The only 3 things I think that should be pretty obvious is that Dark Elf units are not affected by fleeing Slave units, Dark Elves can shoot into combats if just Slaves and the enemy are involved, and the Slaves must be controlled by Slavemasters or something (If these get killed then the slaves presumably run for freedom?)


Sat Apr 12, 2003 10:51 pm
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this is my favourite topic ever. The idea of the the cruel druchii using theyre slaves on the battlefield jst like in the book.

Coming up with these rules i had to face 2 facts,
1.No New Models
2.Druchii list needs to still be and 'elite' army

These then are the rules for my slave unit.

CORE CHOICE

SLAVES 5 pts every slave
12 points every slavemaster

-------m----Ws----Bs--- S-- T--- W--- I--- A--- Ld
Slave-5-----2------2-----3---3----1----2----1----6

Slave
Master 5 ----4 -----4 ----3 --3 ----1 ---6 ---2 ----8

10+ slaves

0-1 slavemaster per 10 slaves

Weopons
Hand Weapon
Options: The slavemasters have a slave whip (poisoned hand weopon)

Special Rules,Frenzy, Slavemaster, Slaves, Stupidity

*SLAVEMASTER
The slavemasters sre the heart of the unit and if they die then it is quite it is unlikey that the the unit will continue fighting. They is treated like a character in that the unit may use their leadership and they benifit from
"Look Out Sir" rolls but they cannot accept or issue challenges and they must lead from the back. If the unit fails a ld test the slave masters have the option of "whipping". they can attack his own unit and if he successfully kills one of the unit remove a model and the slavemaster has kept the unit in check and they do not run away. If he is unable to do so he runs as well.

*SLAVES
You cannot include more slave units than dark elf core units in the army. Also they cannot benifit from the generals leadership( the only leadership the know is the hard whip of the slavemasters)nor can any character join the unit except a beastmaster.If a beastmaster is included in the unit then he works the same way as a Slavemaster(Has greater chaNCE OF KILLING SLAVES THOUGH) Also normal druchii expect the slaves to run so are immune to their panic.

*FRENZY
Slaves are not willing fighters and they would be poor ones normally but are drugged up before a battle so are effected by the rules for FRENZY.


*Note:Slaves are not just humans but orcs, dwarves and elves too but for simplicities sake all have the same stat line and will come on a regular 25/25 mm base.


There you have it. I have playtested this unit several times and it is awesome. It is a charecterful unit that compliments our army well.
Slavemasters are great!

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Sun Apr 13, 2003 4:56 am
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Shade
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/\\// wrote:
I've been having trouble coming up with ideas for Slaves.

/\\// wrote:
First off, aren't the slves all suposed to be of different races and therefore mixed ability? How do we represent this? would it be easier just o have them all the same race?

No, I don't think there should be rules for the different races of slaves in a slave unit. It would complicate the rules to much. According to the fluff in both the 5th and 6th ed books, most slaves are human. Read a 'slave's tale' and the story after that in the 5th ed book on page 43.

/\\// wrote:
Secondly, what if the slaves face their own race? Surely they'd try and escape back to freedom if they got the chance? Should there be a special rule for this? (This would obviousely mean that there would have to be race types of slaves.)

No, the slaves are drugged by the druchii to make them fight any enemy. Again if you were to include such a rule, it would complicate the unit unnecisarely.

/\\// wrote:
Will the slaves fight the enemy or will they simply provide a screen for Dark Elf troops?

I think we should make the slave unit multi purpose, just like skaven slaves. They should be a sacrificial troop, luring the enemy into a trap.

/\\// wrote:
Will the slaves be drugged and so immune to psychology?

I think so yes, it seems the most approriate thing and logical to do in the eyes of a Druchii.


/\\// wrote:
The only 3 things I think that should be pretty obvious is that Dark Elf units are not affected by fleeing Slave units, Dark Elves can shoot into combats if just Slaves and the enemy are involved, and the Slaves must be controlled by Slavemasters or something (If these get killed then the slaves presumably run for freedom?)

It may be nice to let druchii fire into combats involving slaves, but what if Druchii charge into the same combat as the slaves. Druchii will be shooting Druchii, and that's not right.
I think the whole idea of slavemasters is a bad one. The slaves are drugged maniacs and are just herded forward in the direction of the enemy by Druchii units.
Including the a slavemaster into the unit also makes the unit more expensive, and I don't think we want an expensive sacrificial unit. Maybe the BM should have some effect on them, but not slavemasters.
Besides where are the slavemasters in the story with Lord Yeurl in the 6th ed DE book?


Most of you guys are just thinking about the slave unit itself, but we should also think about the slaver list itself.
In my previous post in this thread I posted some ideas, would you guys like to comment on them? thanks.

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Sun Apr 13, 2003 9:35 am
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Hunter Of The Night
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I think if the slaves get an appendix list then it should be largely consistent with a raiding party list. This means lots of Corsairs and Dark Riders.

Personally if we got slave units I would be reluctnt to use an appendix list of them. I would just buy a couple of big units to shield my Dark Elf troops pretty much as Goblins are often used in Orc armies.


Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:32 am
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As I said before, at this juncture this is a long term topic and the concept is Appendix not main list units.


Sun Apr 13, 2003 5:28 pm
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I have started a new thread dedicated to the "slave unit". Please test the unit there and as usual post your comments so we may develop it.

Slaves would be an important tactical shift for the Dark Elf army, so consider this when you look at point cost.

They should not be unbreakable, as we don't want to pay 10pts for them. Look at the prices of swarms. Undeads fall apart, but slaves would not.

Not all slaves should be drugged. In fact, they are used in extremis more often than not.

The beastmasters should be responsible for the slaves also, because Dark Elves see slaves just like cattle to be tamed/used/abused.


Sun Apr 13, 2003 7:01 pm
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As I wrote in another post they should be given two rules: live is cheap and that friendly fire ( if opponent want to shoot or charge unit of slaves he need to pass Ld check - it is to represant that he will be shooting against probably also own race members)

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Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:28 pm
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ANNOUNCEMENT! IMPORTANT.

At this time Lord Uramael will be managing the construction of the Slave List. I would like you all to work with him to reach a consensus about this list and help him playtest it.

Please refer to him for further instructions.

Remember the list is an APPENDIX list and while it can involve the introduction of new units such as slaves, it should contain many of the units we already possess. Thus you also need to design a list as well, not just slaves.

Thank you! :D

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While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."


Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:03 pm
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