What would you say?
10 is pretty small and your opponen gets VP very easy
I think at least 15 (12 when a really tougth unit) and up to 25
I won my CC by rankbonus and Banners not in slaying opponents and I didnt ever see any units with 10 minis (exept shooty and skirmischers)
Spearmen (and comperativ) 16-25
exes and WE (and comperativ) 15-20
what do you think would you realy field only 10 Spearelves? or 10 exes? I never! (ok in a 500pts match)
What would you say?
Optimum Unit Strenght??
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Schattenklinge
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Optimum Unit Strenght??
Dalamar wrote:Also, Dark Elf answer to Phoenix Guard are Crossbowmen. lots and lots of crossbowmen
Look at the MSU thread...
Some times a lot of smal uits can be tacticaly better than few bigones. To distract the enemy and support each unit groups of 10 warriors can be quite useful. Generaly I think the optimal stregth depends from the tactical plan.
But 14 witch elves in two ranks make a lot of damage...
Some times a lot of smal uits can be tacticaly better than few bigones. To distract the enemy and support each unit groups of 10 warriors can be quite useful. Generaly I think the optimal stregth depends from the tactical plan.
But 14 witch elves in two ranks make a lot of damage...
I was angry with my friend:
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.
W. Blake
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.
W. Blake
Spearelves can be useful even when they are 15 (5x3), they have more speed than an average man so getting the charge is not to hard.
I use witches in unit(s) of 12 or 14, two ranks and I do the same with my Draichmasters and with banner of murder they take out the most things (especialy when combined with a chariot )
I use witches in unit(s) of 12 or 14, two ranks and I do the same with my Draichmasters and with banner of murder they take out the most things (especialy when combined with a chariot
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Dyvim tvar
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If you have infantry units that can actually deal some damage on the charge, then rank bonus isn't so important. Executioners and Witch Elves can function in small units because they can do enough damage on the charge so that they don't necessarily need the rank bonus. Spear elves and corsairs generally need the rank bonus (against an enemy with low weapon skill, armor, and toughness corsairs can get by with smaller units).
Ultimately, the question of optimal unit size depends on what else is in your army. For example, cold one chariots are great at dealing damage, but have trouble breaking a block of ranked infantry because they often start combat reolution down by 5 (due to ranks, outnumbering and standard). If you combine them with a ranked unit of spears or corsairs, however, the enemy will generally get beaten.
There are three ways of gaining combat resolution, which is ultimately your goal on the road to winning: (1) dealing damage; (2) numbers -- ranks and outnumbering; and (3) maneuverabilty -- to get flank or rear charges. The size of your units should depend on which of these roles you expect them to play.
The best and most flexible armies often have units that fall into each of the three roles. I know someone who plays Wood Elves, and he alomst always includes one or two units of glade guard numbering 20-25 strong for the full ranks and standard. By using them in combination with either flank charging fast elements like glade riders or a hard hitting element like a treeman or dryads, he has had great success on the battlefield. It's a sort of "combined arms" doctrine that Druchii general would do well to emulate.
Ultimately, the question of optimal unit size depends on what else is in your army. For example, cold one chariots are great at dealing damage, but have trouble breaking a block of ranked infantry because they often start combat reolution down by 5 (due to ranks, outnumbering and standard). If you combine them with a ranked unit of spears or corsairs, however, the enemy will generally get beaten.
There are three ways of gaining combat resolution, which is ultimately your goal on the road to winning: (1) dealing damage; (2) numbers -- ranks and outnumbering; and (3) maneuverabilty -- to get flank or rear charges. The size of your units should depend on which of these roles you expect them to play.
The best and most flexible armies often have units that fall into each of the three roles. I know someone who plays Wood Elves, and he alomst always includes one or two units of glade guard numbering 20-25 strong for the full ranks and standard. By using them in combination with either flank charging fast elements like glade riders or a hard hitting element like a treeman or dryads, he has had great success on the battlefield. It's a sort of "combined arms" doctrine that Druchii general would do well to emulate.
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Evilzealot
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I use a big block of 25 warriors with rxbs (usually with an assassin in it) to incourage the enemy to charge them. They usually win combat with the rank bonus, a standard, outnumbering, and the assassin wounding. They managed to accept a charge from Bretonnian Grail Knights, the CR ended up in a tie (we both had musicians...something I forgot to mention).
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Shadowlord
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Drakken
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I tend to vary depending on unit and role.
Crossbowman are never bigger than 10.
Spears are usully 15 or 16, allowing for 5*3 or 4*4 depending how nasty the foe
Corsairs are 12 or 16, againt allowing for variance with foes
Execs./Witches or 10 or 15, depending on points and support
BlackGuard are 16 or 20, lacking attacks, they need Ranks
And if you must take large blocks, always add 1 or 2 to the end like 23 or 25, just so you have a few extra for outnumber purposes.
Crossbowman are never bigger than 10.
Spears are usully 15 or 16, allowing for 5*3 or 4*4 depending how nasty the foe
Corsairs are 12 or 16, againt allowing for variance with foes
Execs./Witches or 10 or 15, depending on points and support
BlackGuard are 16 or 20, lacking attacks, they need Ranks
And if you must take large blocks, always add 1 or 2 to the end like 23 or 25, just so you have a few extra for outnumber purposes.
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Iraduur nightfrost
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Playing against O&G showed me, that there is no chance of beating enemy units by having ranks or large blocks of warriors. DE are an elite army and pay elite prizes for their warriors! Even with the revision the units get quite expensive. So actually I say you should read about MSU!
I prefer to have some units with minimum strength, but most of the times I put in a hard hitting unit, that can operate on its own or obliterate every threat on the table when supported, like 18 Witches.
I prefer to have some units with minimum strength, but most of the times I put in a hard hitting unit, that can operate on its own or obliterate every threat on the table when supported, like 18 Witches.
Behold the might of the witchking!
I'm a wood elf player who has had increadible success with "combined arms". Wood elf combat units are very specific in what they do. Glade guard bring ranks and not much else, glade riders flank to kill rank bunus and not much else, dryads cause wounds and not much else. When you get a combined charge of guard in the front, dryads on one flank, and glade riders on the other, almost any unit will fall. Some wood elf units can perform multiple roles, and wardancers are like a utility knife with several unique functions, but for the most part, when you throw two wood elf units into the same combat their capabilities will stack well. This makes glade guard, almost identical to our much bemoaned warriors, quite valued by those wood elves who aren't put off by the cost of metal core infantry blocks.
This doesn't work quite as well for dark elves, though. All of your infantry units are block, and since rank and standard doesn't stack that's something you're already losing when putting units together. For this reason minimum unit strength can be a very attractive size, especially if you already have some unit bringing the rank bonus (a couple units of 16 to 25 corsairs supported by a few min sized unis of executioners, witch elves, and d.riders can be good).
With the revision warriors could become useful for bringing in some cheap rank bonus (for an elf army), allowing all your supporting units to drop to MSU or something close to it. Since these guys aren't likely to cause many wounds it's best you forget about the spears entirely and use them as 8 pt elven swords. Of course, against particularly vicious enemies (upgraded saurus block, chosen) with characters in them a frontal charge with a warrior block can give the enemy more points by letting them attack more then they'll give you through rank and standard, even with the sword and shield save. Still, not to be tossed lightly aside. Putting a character in the warriors can help some, with the assassin being potentially useful here. The key to this is to keep all your units at or under 150 points, so that any of them can be lost without to much trouble. Consider your army in "blocks" of 150 points. a 1500 point army would thus have ten "blocks", which might be:
1. noble on dark pegasus
2. scroll caddy
3. 16 warriors with spears, command
4. 16 warriors with spears, command
5. 12 warriors with rxbow, shield, and musician
6. 12 warriors with rxbow, shield, and musician
7. 5 driders with rxbow and musician
8. 5 driders with rxbow and musician
9. 10 executioners with champ
10. 10 witch elves with champ, witch brew
This army has 9 distinct potential maneuver melee elements, more then the average for this size army, even among horde armies. The noble can move about at will (being careful to avoid missile arcs) carrying necessary leadership and damage potential quickly to wherever it needs to be. The army isn't too short on missile power either, with 34 rxbows. On the downside, the warriors will likely have to choose between firing their rxbows or moving in support of the combat units, since the rxbow cannot be fired on the march. Also, with so many units you have to be careful about where they go or you could end up getting in your own way, and a traffic jam would be tantamount to automatic loss, with such fragile, small units. Careful use of the flee reaction to charges (hence all the musicians) can draw your opponant into traps where the warriors combine their ranks with the damage and rank breaking power of one of the special units, and maybe the noble if necessary. Dark riders and the noble hunt war machines. rank and file missile troops can be dangerous, but the lack of a legitimate target can confound them and you don't have to worry if one or two units are lost to shooting, as you have more where they came from.
With the block format you can shift in other units easily if you find the need. Killed by rank and file missile troops? drop the rxbows for three missile screens of 10 corsairs each. find you need a faster/tougher/heavier hitting impact unit? 5 cold one knights slots in quite nicely. You get the idea. Hydras and manticores are out because of their cost, but dark pegasi can work wonders. A block of 10 black guard makes a great stopper. You'll lose most the unit, but not much short of chosen knights with a lord will wipe them out entirely, and if even one is left stubborness will keep the enemy stuck and open for a duel flank countercharge, and chances are enough space has been opened in the black guard unit for you to throw your spear block in the front for rank bonus.
Anyway, that's one style of play. A key problem with that style, however, is once you start pushing 2500 points or more then additional tiny units will just get in each others way, and a few uber enemy units or concentrated missile fire will clear them out rather quicly. Burning points on large flying monsters (dragons if you have the slots, manticores if you don't) then becomes a good idea. Yes, you could have three to five effective units for the cost of one dragon, but when you already have 15 such units three more will only reduce the overall effectiveness of the 15 you already have (a diminishing returns situation). Unfortunitally, though you'll have the points to do this, character slots are another issue, and you'll run out of room pretty quickly, leaving you with only two options: make your units bigger, which really won't help you much, or craft an uber unit or two of cold ones. Another way to burn points in larger games, and one you may want to consider even in smaller games, especially if you use witch elves, is the new and improved cauldron of blood. Makes each of your many units that much more effective.
This doesn't work quite as well for dark elves, though. All of your infantry units are block, and since rank and standard doesn't stack that's something you're already losing when putting units together. For this reason minimum unit strength can be a very attractive size, especially if you already have some unit bringing the rank bonus (a couple units of 16 to 25 corsairs supported by a few min sized unis of executioners, witch elves, and d.riders can be good).
With the revision warriors could become useful for bringing in some cheap rank bonus (for an elf army), allowing all your supporting units to drop to MSU or something close to it. Since these guys aren't likely to cause many wounds it's best you forget about the spears entirely and use them as 8 pt elven swords. Of course, against particularly vicious enemies (upgraded saurus block, chosen) with characters in them a frontal charge with a warrior block can give the enemy more points by letting them attack more then they'll give you through rank and standard, even with the sword and shield save. Still, not to be tossed lightly aside. Putting a character in the warriors can help some, with the assassin being potentially useful here. The key to this is to keep all your units at or under 150 points, so that any of them can be lost without to much trouble. Consider your army in "blocks" of 150 points. a 1500 point army would thus have ten "blocks", which might be:
1. noble on dark pegasus
2. scroll caddy
3. 16 warriors with spears, command
4. 16 warriors with spears, command
5. 12 warriors with rxbow, shield, and musician
6. 12 warriors with rxbow, shield, and musician
7. 5 driders with rxbow and musician
8. 5 driders with rxbow and musician
9. 10 executioners with champ
10. 10 witch elves with champ, witch brew
This army has 9 distinct potential maneuver melee elements, more then the average for this size army, even among horde armies. The noble can move about at will (being careful to avoid missile arcs) carrying necessary leadership and damage potential quickly to wherever it needs to be. The army isn't too short on missile power either, with 34 rxbows. On the downside, the warriors will likely have to choose between firing their rxbows or moving in support of the combat units, since the rxbow cannot be fired on the march. Also, with so many units you have to be careful about where they go or you could end up getting in your own way, and a traffic jam would be tantamount to automatic loss, with such fragile, small units. Careful use of the flee reaction to charges (hence all the musicians) can draw your opponant into traps where the warriors combine their ranks with the damage and rank breaking power of one of the special units, and maybe the noble if necessary. Dark riders and the noble hunt war machines. rank and file missile troops can be dangerous, but the lack of a legitimate target can confound them and you don't have to worry if one or two units are lost to shooting, as you have more where they came from.
With the block format you can shift in other units easily if you find the need. Killed by rank and file missile troops? drop the rxbows for three missile screens of 10 corsairs each. find you need a faster/tougher/heavier hitting impact unit? 5 cold one knights slots in quite nicely. You get the idea. Hydras and manticores are out because of their cost, but dark pegasi can work wonders. A block of 10 black guard makes a great stopper. You'll lose most the unit, but not much short of chosen knights with a lord will wipe them out entirely, and if even one is left stubborness will keep the enemy stuck and open for a duel flank countercharge, and chances are enough space has been opened in the black guard unit for you to throw your spear block in the front for rank bonus.
Anyway, that's one style of play. A key problem with that style, however, is once you start pushing 2500 points or more then additional tiny units will just get in each others way, and a few uber enemy units or concentrated missile fire will clear them out rather quicly. Burning points on large flying monsters (dragons if you have the slots, manticores if you don't) then becomes a good idea. Yes, you could have three to five effective units for the cost of one dragon, but when you already have 15 such units three more will only reduce the overall effectiveness of the 15 you already have (a diminishing returns situation). Unfortunitally, though you'll have the points to do this, character slots are another issue, and you'll run out of room pretty quickly, leaving you with only two options: make your units bigger, which really won't help you much, or craft an uber unit or two of cold ones. Another way to burn points in larger games, and one you may want to consider even in smaller games, especially if you use witch elves, is the new and improved cauldron of blood. Makes each of your many units that much more effective.
~nik
I think that 20 warriors/corsairs is right; I take at least 20 corsairs, but more if I can afford it, becouse I have always loose many models in shooting and i want full rank's in hand to hand.
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I think that 20 warriors/corsairs is right; I take at least 20 corsairs, but more if I can afford it, becouse I have always loose many models in shooting and i want full rank's in hand to hand
that's truth...our troops tend to die a lot while crossing the board
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Drakken
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I haven't used a regiment more than 16 in a while, and I don't usually have to worry about shooting at my Core Infantry. Usually my oppenant has much bigger threats than the 15 Spearman running across the board, since Harpies, Shades, DR, DPs, and any other random flyer or Unseen/Steeded across the board.
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Dyvim tvar
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Aki Asura wrote:No offense man, but unless you use MSU, it's a little difficult to get 3 units to jump one.
I disagree. That's what Dark Riders are for. Use fast cavalry to take away ranks by charging in the side or the rear, and hit the front of the unit with ranked infantry.
Two problems I see with MSU are: (1) it's a lot easier to set up flank or rear charges with fast cavlary than with you rsmall infatry units. The free reform is a huge difference-maker; (2) even if you do get a flank charge to take away ranks with your MSU army, you frequently won't have the combat resolution to break the enemy since you are carrying no more than a +1 rank bonus yourself.
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