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Rule Question concerining Champions 
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Ok here's a question that's causing some debate hereabouts. If you have a unit of corsairs, with standard, musician and champion, in a 5x4 unit (5 across, 4 deep) and someone charges it with a regular unit and wipes out five corsairs, does that include the champion? In other words, does the champion behave like a character in this situation or not? Can he strike back?

I think he is treated like a character.

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Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:12 pm
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Cold One Knight
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You are right, wounds NEVER carry over onto champions. Your opponent could have wiped out 1,000,000 corsairs and that champion would still be standing (but running!)

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Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:15 pm
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IMO wounds carry over to champion when he's last one standing in unit... In other words if 20 wounds are infilcted on 20 corsair (including champ) unit then he dies too... but if 19 wounds are inflicted then he's standing... Unless some attacks were directed specifically against him.


Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:22 pm
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Unless your opponent directs his attacks, specifically against the champion model, using models in base contact he will survive. See page 68 in the rule book.

In this case he can strike back. :D

Unless he causes more unsaved wounds than models in your unit. As Dalamar indicated. :cry:


Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:00 pm
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Ditto what Dark Alliance said.

Except I'm not sure about the wounds carrying over if there are excess wounds inflicted - where does it state this in the rulebook?

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Mon Oct 14, 2002 10:46 pm
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CrimsonDeath wrote:
Ditto what Dark Alliance said.

Except I'm not sure about the wounds carrying over if there are excess wounds inflicted - where does it state this in the rulebook?



On page 109 it states that champions in the unit benefit from the "look out sir rule" and that refers you to page 94 - the character section. Under the "look out sir" rule on page 100 it states that the rule only applies when there is a unit strength of 5 or more. Hence, when enough wounds are caused - the champion dies. :cry:

My god, I can't believe it is midnight gmt and i am searching the b***dy rulebook to clarify an answer I gave. Where is my anorak ?!? !razz! :mrgreen:


Mon Oct 14, 2002 11:03 pm
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Dark Alliance wrote:
CrimsonDeath wrote:
Ditto what Dark Alliance said.

Except I'm not sure about the wounds carrying over if there are excess wounds inflicted - where does it state this in the rulebook?



On page 109 it states that champions in the unit benefit from the "look out sir rule" and that refers you to page 94 - the character section. Under the "look out sir" rule on page 100 it states that the rule only applies when there is a unit strength of 5 or more. Hence, when enough wounds are caused - the champion dies. :cry:

My god, I can't believe it is midnight gmt and i am searching the b***dy rulebook to clarify an answer I gave. Where is my anorak ?!? !razz! :mrgreen:


Ehh - the "Look out Sir" rule is there to protect hero's from template shooting hits (eg. Stone Throwers and Cannons). Once there are less than 5 models, the character is automatically hit and does not get the LoS roll. Unless I'm mistaken, I thought we were discussing HtH casualties here!

And I'd still maintain (unless proven otherwise), that HtH casualties do not carry over to Champions (or Hero's).

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Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:42 am
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Considering that DE unit champions are similar in stats it doesn't make a huge difference, but with Orc unit the champion is somewhat better than the others. To carry on the wounds there would be unfair to the champion who has a higher weapon skill and therefore is less likley to be hit.

Therefore I believe that despite unclarity I do not think the wounds should carry over.

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Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:03 am
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Q: Have they changed the rule that excess wound on a champion were carried over to the unit? If thats the case, were can I find this change, GW Q&A or what?


Tue Oct 15, 2002 7:27 am
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Let's say, you have 10 models, full command. Enemy charge and inflict 11 wounds.

Your Champion would still be the last man standing. The excess 2 wounds don't count onto him. That is because the enemy did not specify that they are dividing some of their attacks onto the champion.

The champion stands out mainly they either have a higher BS (Archer based) or Attacks (HtH based) and they behave like a mini Hero...hey, they're the only one in the unit that can issue and accept challenge. They are like a leader.

Like it was said some posts earlier, if the enemy in base contact with the champion stated that they are attacking only on the champion, then he would be wounded and maydie from these attacks.

The argument would be more prominent when it comes to HE as some of their champions can carry 25 points of Magic Item like Amulet of the Purifying Flame. For our Hags, the Wich Brew's effect starts the moment the turns started and so what if they are killed, the effect is still there...but for HE, if ther champion carrying the item is killed, there goes the effect...

Of course, at the end, it all boils down to sportsmanship....I will say you don't kill my champion because your troops ae not attacking him at all and are only aiming for easy meats elsewhere... :idea:


Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:07 am
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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semajrok wrote:
Let's say, you have 10 models, full command. Enemy charge and inflict 11 wounds.

Your Champion would still be the last man standing. The excess 2 wounds don't count onto him. That is because the enemy did not specify that they are dividing some of their attacks onto the champion.

The champion stands out mainly they either have a higher BS (Archer based) or Attacks (HtH based) and they behave like a mini Hero...hey, they're the only one in the unit that can issue and accept challenge. They are like a leader.

Like it was said some posts earlier, if the enemy in base contact with the champion stated that they are attacking only on the champion, then he would be wounded and maydie from these attacks.

The argument would be more prominent when it comes to HE as some of their champions can carry 25 points of Magic Item like Amulet of the Purifying Flame. For our Hags, the Wich Brew's effect starts the moment the turns started and so what if they are killed, the effect is still there...but for HE, if ther champion carrying the item is killed, there goes the effect...

Of course, at the end, it all boils down to sportsmanship....I will say you don't kill my champion because your troops ae not attacking him at all and are only aiming for easy meats elsewhere... :idea:


I agree with you. I never realized what kind of debate this would start. Its good. :shock:

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Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:41 am
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CrimsonDeath wrote:
And I'd still maintain (unless proven otherwise), that HtH casualties do not carry over to Champions (or Hero's).[/color]


I think this is one of those points you can argue each way if you feel so inclined. In every gaming club I go to he would die. If you read the first two paragraphs on page 109 of the rule book, under Champions, there are sentences such as "Although powerful, champions are not characters but members of their regiment and always fight as part of it . . . ."

Common sense ought to prevail here IMHO. If you cause 10 wounds on a unit of basically standard troops and there are only 8, one of which is the unit champion - he should die. IMHO :)


Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:11 am
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fallen angel wrote:
Your opponent could have wiped out 1,000,000 corsairs and that champion would still be standing (but running!)

Fallen Angel


What if there were 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Corsairs in the regiment? :D :D

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Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:22 am
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i will agree that you must direct attacks against the champion for him to die. do the ones that say he dies as well also argue that the general and his huge dragon that joined the unit also die if enough exess wounds are made on the unit? :?:

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Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:44 am
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Linda wrote:
i will agree that you must direct attacks against the champion for him to die. do the ones that say he dies as well also argue that the general and his huge dragon that joined the unit also die if enough exess wounds are made on the unit? :?:



Hello again :D

Ok, I have just spoken to the Rool Boyz @ GW. This is their clarification -

The unit champion can be targeted specifically by any enemy models in base contact if so desired. However, as the champion is basically a member of the unit, any excess unsaved wounds will kill him once there are no other members of the unit to protect him if he is not targeted specifically.

And ( you are NOT going to like this bit ) the same applies to any characters within the unit if the same excess wounds situation should occur. !cry!

Now before you ask "What would happen to characters if say, there is one unsaved wound too less to kill them outright?" you would get to choose the allocation of those wounds. So if you had 2 characters, one with 2 wound and one with 3 you could allocate them in such a way as to keep them both alive.

Obviously, the characters get to save on their own bonuses so chances are they survive anyway.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.


Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:32 am
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langmann wrote:
Ok here's a question that's causing some debate hereabouts. If you have a unit of corsairs, with standard, musician and champion, in a 5x4 unit (5 across, 4 deep) and someone charges it with a regular unit and wipes out five corsairs, does that include the champion? In other words, does the champion behave like a character in this situation or not? Can he strike back?

I think he is treated like a character.


Looking back over this thread I think one or two of us (me included in particular) got a little sidetracked from the original question. I think it was when someone mentioned "last man in the unit"

If this is the first round of combat say, then unless the champion (or character) has been specifically targeted he will survive and get to attack back. All of my answers have pretty much been along the line of when you get to the point where you are looking at wiping out last man standing.

Sorry if I have caused any confusion. ;)


Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:40 am
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sometimes you would notice that your character has a different value for his toughness....say 4 compared to the 3 of the normal troops....so how can the wound caused on e T3 troop be carried over to him once all the T3 troops were wiped out leaving the character and say about 3 excess wounds??

My friends and I play the house rule....as long you did not dedicate any attacks on the character or the champion, they will not die from the excess wounds...the excess wounds are wasted!! although we would argue ni to Overkill....

So, final words: Sportsmanship + House Rules to clarify doubts...

Kill the others, not within.........


Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:52 am
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semajrok wrote:
sometimes you would notice that your character has a different value for his toughness....say 4 compared to the 3 of the normal troops....so how can the wound caused on e T3 troop be carried over to him once all the T3 troops were wiped out leaving the character and say about 3 excess wounds??

My friends and I play the house rule....as long you did not dedicate any attacks on the character or the champion, they will not die from the excess wounds...the excess wounds are wasted!! although we would argue ni to Overkill....

So, final words: Sportsmanship + House Rules to clarify doubts...


To your first question - you would roll a differnt coloured dice as you would peerhaps for a Dark Rider Herald when using bs to determine hits from shooting.

And as for house rules, IMHO they are a good thing as they help to irradicate discrepancies in the rules system. For example, in a club I visit occasionally they have a rule called "The 2" fire corridor" - ie if you wish to target with missile weaponry or magic missiles there needs to be a 2" corridor within which you can aim. This is extremely good in my experience as it's stops people trying to fire a hail of arrows through the crack in a wall for example. House rule, everyone knows it and they play by it.

Your last comment - I AGREE TOTALLY :D


Tue Oct 15, 2002 12:14 pm
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Posted this q a few posts up, but it was ignored, so I try again. Hope thats ok with you all.

Q: Have they changed the rule that excess wound on a champion were carried over to the unit?
If thats the case, were can I find this change, GW Q&A or what?


Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:08 pm
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Oh man! This thread is turning me into a right anorak. !!! !eek!

Ok here goes, on page 98 of the rule book it says under "Excess Wounds" -

"any excess wounds caused by those attacks are not carried over onto ordinary troopers fighting nearby. The attacker has chosen to concentrate . . . blah, blah,blah"

So excess wounds are lost except in a challenge where uop to 5 wounds can count towards combat resolution subject to normal conditions etc :)

Any more variations or can I put the rule book away now . . . . . . . please.


Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:03 pm
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In shooting this goes interesting. Say if a unit of 10 with champion is shot at with 100 arrows and you ofcourse roll to and wound and save with the normal trooper stats. And when every arrow is a kill look how is still standing, it's our friend the champion. This will happen if the champion is character cause you don't want to put wounds on our mega hero when you have already rolled to wound and saved them with the normal trooper stats. So the champions are a problem indeed cause as said they are part of their unit (and they propably don't know the term humanshield too well).

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Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:30 pm
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Ok this is important, as I use this rule all the time and people always question it and I always have to show them the relevant page in the army book.
Firstly, if you do not direct attacks at a champion, he cannot die,as long as there are enough 'normal' modles in the unit to take all the wounds on! If all wounds are allocated to normal models, then the excess will kill the champ, but only then!

Dark Alliance wrote:


Quote:
Ok here goes, on page 98 of the rule book it says under "Excess Wounds" -

"any excess wounds caused by those attacks are not carried over onto ordinary troopers fighting nearby. The attacker has chosen to concentrate . . . blah, blah,blah"


Dark Allinace, I'm sorry, but this is both wrong and misleading. You have taken this from the section on Challanges and we are not talking about chalanges here, just normal fighting. In chalanges, excess wounds count towards combat resolution (max 5), but do not kill other models. In normal combat, this is not so!

Ok, here's the rule I use to my great advantage:

When you charge a unit, ALWAYS direct as many attacks at the unit champion as you can. Any excess wounds caused on the champion, will roll over to normal troopers and these models are then removed as slain. This way, you can kill the whole front rank and stop the enemy fighting back......................No I hear you say........that's not right. It is, check out page 109 of the main rule book. The heading is Champions and it clearly states:

'If Killed in close combat, any excess wounds caused against them are carried over to normal rank-and-file models in the unit.'

This will obviously, not apply if the model is in a chalange, as those rules would overrule these.

It's a great tactic and many many opponants have never realised it's there! :twisted:

So, if you charge, don't chalange, hit em with everything. If you are charged and think the oppo knows the rule, always chalange, coz then he's only being hit by 1 model, may survive and at least protects his mates.[/quote]

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Tue Oct 15, 2002 10:59 pm
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Dark Alliance wrote:
Ok, I have just spoken to the Rool Boyz @ GW. This is their clarification -


I wouldn't trust the Rool Boyz as far as I could kick them - they are worse than useless.

I once had a response from them declaring that a unit engaged in HtH could turn around (whilst in combat) and thus negate any flank or rear bonuses an attacker might have!

:evil:

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Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:15 pm
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Dark Alliance wrote:
And ( you are NOT going to like this bit ) the same applies to any characters within the unit if the same excess wounds situation should occur. !cry!


Oh, and further to my previous comment, I am convinced that this statement from the Rool Boyz is complete BS (no offense to you Dark Alliance).

How can excess wounds carry over when you have:

a) Different WS (so a different to-hit roll is required)
b) Different T (so a different to-wound roll is required)
c) Different AS

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Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:22 pm
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The Word of Pain wrote:

Dark Alliance wrote:


Quote:
Ok here goes, on page 98 of the rule book it says under "Excess Wounds" -

"any excess wounds caused by those attacks are not carried over onto ordinary troopers fighting nearby. The attacker has chosen to concentrate . . . blah, blah,blah"


Dark Allinace, I'm sorry, but this is both wrong and misleading. You have taken this from the section on Challanges and we are not talking about chalanges here, just normal fighting. In chalanges, excess wounds count towards combat resolution (max 5), but do not kill other models. In normal combat, this is not so!
]


I took it from the section about characters in close combat situations. What I said was correct in one sense if the attacks are directed against an enemy character or monster, but not in a challenge they are not carried across.

I read the paragraph you pointed out and you are correct. Apologies my error. But we both agree on the core issue that the unit champion dies . . . don't we? :P


Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:33 pm
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