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Rule Question concerining Champions 
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Morathi's Favoured
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To Word of Pain :

You have played in the UK tournaments, how would they deal with what Crimson Death says ?


CrimsonDeath wrote:
Dark Alliance wrote:
And ( you are NOT going to like this bit ) the same applies to any characters within the unit if the same excess wounds situation should occur. !cry!


Oh, and further to my previous comment, I am convinced that this statement from the Rool Boyz is complete BS (no offense to you Dark Alliance).

How can excess wounds carry over when you have:

a) Different WS (so a different to-hit roll is required)
b) Different T (so a different to-wound roll is required)
c) Different AS


Do you roll again using different stats?


Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:39 pm
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Highborn
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The roolz boys are next to useless, But you might get lucky and get one that knows his stuff (1in20 at a guess). but don't count on it. and cos of that i wouldn't call them. Also they seem to know 40k better. But your right word of pain, very few people know that i'm gonna mark pg 109 for that reason. I also beleave that if there are enough wounds to kill a champion after all the rank a file and std b musician are dead then he dies too

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Last edited by Shockwave on Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:38 am
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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The Word of Pain wrote:
Ok this is important, as I use this rule all the time and people always question it and I always have to show them the relevant page in the army book.


Ok, here's the rule I use to my great advantage:

When you charge a unit, ALWAYS direct as many attacks at the unit champion as you can. Any excess wounds caused on the champion, will roll over to normal troopers and these models are then removed as slain. This way, you can kill the whole front rank and stop the enemy fighting back......................No I hear you say........that's not right. It is, check out page 109 of the main rule book. The heading is Champions and it clearly states:

'If Killed in close combat, any excess wounds caused against them are carried over to normal rank-and-file models in the unit.'

This will obviously, not apply if the model is in a chalange, as those rules would overrule these.

It's a great tactic and many many opponants have never realised it's there! :twisted:

So, if you charge, don't chalange, hit em with everything. If you are charged and think the oppo knows the rule, always chalange, coz then he's only being hit by 1 model, may survive and at least protects his mates.
[/quote]

I agree with you, that sounds right. However sometimes a champion has a better WS, ie the orc boss champion. In this case I may be foolish to use my corsairs to target his champion as chances are I would do more damage to the normal orcs, even though he may surely whack one corsair.... :x

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Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:41 am
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Morathi's Favoured
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The Word of Pain wrote:

Dark Allinace, I'm sorry, but this is both wrong and misleading. You have taken this from the section on Challanges and we are not talking about chalanges here, just normal fighting. In chalanges, excess wounds count towards combat resolution (max 5), but do not kill other models. In normal combat, this is not so!

Ok, here's the rule I use to my great advantage:

When you charge a unit, ALWAYS direct as many attacks at the unit champion as you can. Any excess wounds caused on the champion, will roll over to normal troopers and these models are then removed as slain. This way, you can kill the whole front rank and stop the enemy fighting back......................No I hear you say........that's not right. It is, check out page 109 of the main rule book. The heading is Champions and it clearly states:

'If Killed in close combat, any excess wounds caused against them are carried over to normal rank-and-file models in the unit.'

This will obviously, not apply if the model is in a chalange, as those rules would overrule these.

It's a great tactic and many many opponants have never realised it's there! :twisted:

So, if you charge, don't chalange, hit em with everything. If you are charged and think the oppo knows the rule, always chalange, coz then he's only being hit by 1 model, may survive and at least protects his mates.
[/quote]

Looks like we were both wrong on this one, but in different ways. I checked my updated rule book this morning looking for that paragraph you refer to on page 109. It is no longer there! There was an update to this rule in the annual &warhammer chronicles.

It no longer states the excess wounds caused on a champion carry over onto the unit. But it also doesn't say they don't!!!!!

So now where do we go coz I like the idea of that rule you pointed out, that's why I was looking for it this morning, so I could highlight it ready for GT next week. :(


Wed Oct 16, 2002 11:07 am
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Highborn
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How do you tell if you have the new book or not? Because i checked my book before posting in on pg 109 and it's the last sentence in the second paragraph. Also if an annual thing which one cos i only have 2002

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Wed Oct 16, 2002 11:29 am
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Morathi's Favoured
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Shockwave wrote:
How do you tell if you have the new book or not? Because i checked my book before posting in on pg 109 and it's the last sentence in the second paragraph. Also if an annual thing which one cos i only have 2002


When I said updated book I mean that I have been pasting the updated rules into my book as they are printed in white dwarf and the annual etc. Until I get home later I can't say for sure where the change came from. It is either in the back of the 2002 annual or it came from the warhammer chronicles page on the GW web site. I think the chronicles are in the new annual as well.

I'll let you know later.

Wow, what a long thread this has been for what appeared to be a simple question? :roll:


Wed Oct 16, 2002 11:38 am
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If you think is is long check out RXB question! never typed so much in life! Ok for those who don't have the books the difference's between the two are as follows
Any special rules that apply to the unit also apply to the champion.( that was added for those who didn't work it out for themselfs)
Second It' seems a deberate omission in the 2nd paragraph of the last sentence relating to the excess rules debate so it looks to me that they desided to change rules cause of the abuse it was receiving. Though i did look hopeful for a while!

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Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:30 pm
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The Word of Pain wrote:
Ok, here's the rule I use to my great advantage:

When you charge a unit, ALWAYS direct as many attacks at the unit champion as you can. Any excess wounds caused on the champion, will roll over to normal troopers and these models are then removed as slain. This way, you can kill the whole front rank and stop the enemy fighting back......................No I hear you say........that's not right. It is, check out page 109 of the main rule book. The heading is Champions and it clearly states:

'If Killed in close combat, any excess wounds caused against them are carried over to normal rank-and-file models in the unit.'

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! and once more NOOO!!!!

they changed that. if you go to http://www.games-workshop.com/warhammer ... errata.pdf you get the new (a year old lol) updated rules. and they no longer mention wounds carried over
This will obviously, not apply if the model is in a chalange, as those rules would overrule these.

It's a great tactic and many many opponants have never realised it's there! :twisted:

So, if you charge, don't chalange, hit em with everything. If you are charged and think the oppo knows the rule, always chalange, coz then he's only being hit by 1 model, may survive and at least protects his mates.
[/quote]

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Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:57 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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Shockwave wrote:
If you think is is long check out RXB question! never typed so much in life! !


I fell out of the rxb as soon as you lot started talking about math. All I said was I occasionally opt for single shots. It works for me that's all.

Anyway the amended champion paragraph is in the back of both annuals, as you seem to have discovered.

Later dude :D


Wed Oct 16, 2002 2:16 pm
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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So what have we concluded (other than Warhammer is confusing.)? I still think one must target champions in order to kill them, since for some lucky armies the champion is quite different. But looking at the new errata one wonders... :roll:

Back to my original question, what happens then if 5 corsairs are wiped out, is the champion killed?

:shock:

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Wed Oct 16, 2002 11:27 pm
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Morathi's Favoured
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langmann wrote:
So what have we concluded (other than Warhammer is confusing.)? I still think one must target champions in order to kill them, since for some lucky armies the champion is quite different. But looking at the new errata one wonders... :roll:

Back to my original question, what happens then if 5 corsairs are wiped out, is the champion killed?

:shock:


This is getting boring now.

If you wish to target a unit champion specifically you may do so, using models in base o base contact with him. If you cause more wounds on that unit than models present he is dead ( I am assuming no characters present as I'm not going there again - nuff said!)

Regarding your question again ( addressed it several posts up for you already ) No he is not dead, assuming there is still a unit around him and he has not been targeted ....blah,blah, !red!


Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:47 am
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Dark Alliance wrote:
langmann wrote:
So what have we concluded (other than Warhammer is confusing.)? I still think one must target champions in order to kill them, since for some lucky armies the champion is quite different. But looking at the new errata one wonders... :roll:

Back to my original question, what happens then if 5 corsairs are wiped out, is the champion killed?

:shock:


This is getting boring now.

If you wish to target a unit champion specifically you may do so, using models in base o base contact with him. If you cause more wounds on that unit than models present he is dead ( I am assuming no characters present as I'm not going there again - nuff said!)

Regarding your question again ( addressed it several posts up for you already ) No he is not dead, assuming there is still a unit around him and he has not been targeted ....blah,blah, !red!


You may be bored, my group is not, if you are bored you are welcome to leave. However you presented some of the more confusing contribution, albeit, you also presented some correct argument. I think you were correct initially when you said you would have to target a champ.

However I still disagree with you when it comes to excess wounds caused by HtH. Unless you target a champ, he stays alive. I agree with Crimson Death on that one.

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Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:34 am
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Morathi's Favoured
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To langmann

Apologies if my "boring" comment offended, I omitted to put a smiley after it, as is normal with my tongue in cheek humour.

But I stand by my last comment to you attempting to answer your question. :D :D :D


Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:06 am
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Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Dark Alliance wrote:
To langmann

Apologies if my "boring" comment offended, I omitted to put a smiley after it, as is normal with my tongue in cheek humour.

But I stand by my last comment to you attempting to answer your question. :D :D :D


No problem at all. :D Thanks for your help, also.

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Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:12 am
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The Aspect of Murder
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Dark Alliance wrote:
CrimsonDeath wrote:
And I'd still maintain (unless proven otherwise), that HtH casualties do not carry over to Champions (or Hero's).[/color]
Common sense ought to prevail here IMHO. If you cause 10 wounds on a unit of basically standard troops and there are only 8, one of which is the unit champion - he should die. IMHO :)


I agree 100%

The opposing viewpoint tells me that if I fight a unit with 1 trooper and 1 unit champion left, and I cause 15 wounds that the 14 other wounds don't go to the champion.

No way. I don't buy it. If he has different stats then reroll, but the wounds should not simply disappear. That is idiotic.


Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:19 pm
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Oh we do agree on that, but the section you quoted is under the chalanges section, not just character section and that makes all the difference!

I would suggest all druchii use the 'veryone hit the good fighter' tactic, it makes a huge difference.

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Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:03 pm
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GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:
Dark Alliance wrote:
CrimsonDeath wrote:
And I'd still maintain (unless proven otherwise), that HtH casualties do not carry over to Champions (or Hero's).[/color]
Common sense ought to prevail here IMHO. If you cause 10 wounds on a unit of basically standard troops and there are only 8, one of which is the unit champion - he should die. IMHO :)


I agree 100%

The opposing viewpoint tells me that if I fight a unit with 1 trooper and 1 unit champion left, and I cause 15 wounds that the 14 other wounds don't go to the champion.

No way. I don't buy it. If he has different stats then reroll, but the wounds should not simply disappear. That is idiotic.


Then what happens to a character??? Do they die? Imagine if you had a sorceress with DR then, she just dies because he caused 15 wounds to the regular DR? Or your general with a WS7???

If you are ever in a situation like that, where there are two left, tell the other guy to call shots, after all, its possible everyone avoids the character/champion! Thats what they are doing when they take their dice and roll against a WS that is lower than your character/champion's WS (if they are higher than your basic trooper) and cause 15 wounds! Its his fault then for ignoring the character/champion!

:lol:

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Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:49 pm
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If it's a character, then the extra wounds are lost, if it's a champ, then he dies!
As far as rule changes are concerned, noone and I mean noone has questioned the excess wounds on champs tactic, once I've shown them the paragraph. I await the first, who shows me an article somewhere that says different.

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Thu Oct 17, 2002 6:22 pm
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The Word of Pain wrote:
If it's a character, then the extra wounds are lost, if it's a champ, then he dies!
As far as rule changes are concerned, noone and I mean noone has questioned the excess wounds on champs tactic, once I've shown them the paragraph. I await the first, who shows me an article somewhere that says different.


As I said, the amendment is in the back of last years Annual.


Thu Oct 17, 2002 11:12 pm
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Ok folks the rule amendment is on pg 136 of warhammer annual 2002 under the title ERRATA, and what it basically boils down to is that the unit champion is the last one to die (after the std B) in a unit UNLESS you attack him and only him with those in base to base contact with him.

How ever if you do attack him say with 2 witch elfs and cause 3 wounds on him you lose the excess, no gain what so ever from the over kill.

These rule change if he is in a challenge ( see that section for those rules) The reason why the rules were changed (this is just a guess) is because characters dont get the excess wounds rule that was on page 109 so why would rank and file get it. this i found on pg98 of the main rules ( and it dosen't have an errata in the 2002 annual, tho i don't know about 2003 cos i haven't got it yet ( tho by the looks of it seem's 50% painting guide anyway)Also i cant find where it say's that proper characters (ie. not champions) take the excess wounds when a unit is wiped out, other then the one saying that they behave like a member of that unit up untill the point they leave.

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Fri Oct 18, 2002 6:11 am
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