a question about dark riders we all need to read!

[Impure souls]

we all know dark riders are fast cavalry.so has anyone read the rules for fast cavalry? well judging from the army list section of the forum,no.
see fast cavalry automatically rally at the end of there turn, so you dont even need to take the musician which everyone stands by. isnt this the fact?? this way we can scrap out some extra points we all need valuably and take that extra little thing we always wanted to take but didnt have the points.

[Dragnipur]

True. But was that the only purpose for the musician?

[Draichlord]

DR are constantly used to flank attack while Corsairs or other warriors get the rank bonus. If combat is tied, it goes to the side with more musicians. Auto rally is for voluntary flee. If I lose 2 of 5 from missile fire and flee, I want the +1 ld to rally them.

[Langmann]

Someone please tell where it says they 'automatically rally'. It says "chooses to flee as a charge reaction and subsequently rallies at the beginning of their next move, may reform..."

I always took that to mean that if they passed a rally test then they could do that, otherwise they may flee if you fail the subsequent test!

[Leithel and odd]

So did I, I've never see it said that they automatically rally.

[Magron]

This could prove to be of interest:

http://www.leadership10.com/fantasy/str ... /swift.htm

see point 5 about the rallying
see the rest for useful information for using your dark riders

-Magron

[Crimsondeath]

"Unless I'm very much mistaken..."

Fast Cavalry do NOT automatically rally after a flee reaction.

The rule is: "If they DO rally after a flee reaction, they may move as normal (including shooting, but not charging)"

Therefore, the Musician is a great benefit to them, so they can take advantage of this rule.

[Impure souls]

ok ok but it says at the back of the rule book that

No3:if fast cavalry choose flee as a charge reaction,they rally automatically in there next rally phase and may reform facing any direction.

and for musicians it says that fleeing units gain a 1+ bonus for ld on any attempt to rally, which isnt that great for fast cavalry.

sorry for ruffling feathers, but thats what it says in the rule book and in my other army i dont use fast cavalry cause the dire wolves suck. so i have to get used to using them.

[Leithel and odd]

Hmmm I'm going to have to check the book now. I also diddn't think they could shoot after the rally either... I'll check it out tonight.

[Langmann]

I see what the problem is now:

The rule in the summary was changed in the Annual, 2002. It now says in appendix 7 - special rules Fast Cavalry #3, "If a unit of fast cavalry rallies the turn after it voluntarily flees, it will be able to move normally during the Movement phase of that same turn."

As an aside I cannot find anywhere that says they can shoot after rallying, either.

[Crimsondeath]

I see what the problem is now:

The rule in the summary was changed in the Annual, 2002. It now says in appendix 7 - special rules Fast Cavalry #3, "If a unit of fast cavalry rallies the turn after it voluntarily flees, it will be able to move normally during the Movement phase of that same turn."

As an aside I cannot find anywhere that says they can shoot after rallying, either.

Yes, I probably should have pointed out that this rule was clarified in the Annual

I do remember that it has been cleared up that a unit of fast cav that rallies after a flee reaction may shoot, reform etc. as normal. The only thing they cannot do is charge, as charges are declared before rallying takes place.

[Sneaky]

we all know dark riders are fast cavalry.so has anyone read the rules for fast cavalry? well judging from the army list section of the forum,no.
see fast cavalry automatically rally at the end of there turn, so you dont even need to take the musician which everyone stands by. isnt this the fact?? this way we can scrap out some extra points we all need valuably and take that extra little thing we always wanted to take but didnt have the points.

I'm not positive about this, but I think that there is a rules amendment that changes this. The only thing that fast cavalry can do is move the same turn that they rally. They don't rally automatically, though.

Like I said, I'm not sure about this. But I think that's correct...

Edit: Uh, yeah, that stuff above. Sorry, didn't read the whole thread first.

[Adreal_the_immaculate]

i always thought that free caverly could freely rally after they fead, (shrugs) guess i was wrong

[Thanee]

Nope, fast cavalry does not automatically rally, they still have to make their rally test as everyone else. That's why a musician is almost mandatory for Dark Riders.

Unlike other units, they can move in the turn after they rallied, but only if they fled from a charge in the previous turn. They cannot move after rallying, if they panicked or were broken in combat, or were already fleeing and failed to rally or anything else, except when they actually fled from a charge in the previous turn.

They also cannot shoot in the turn they rallied.

Bye
Thanee

[Dargo]

This debate just goes for an another fine example of GW:s proof-reading of the books. There are dozens of errors in appendixes and all other 'short-lists' of the rules. Just be sure to read the rulebook AND the armybook AND all_possible_addenum (Q&A etc,).

[Dark Alliance]

Sorry but Thanee is right for sure on this one.

Dark Riders are still a damn good unit for us though!

[The word of pain]

As a few people have already pointed out, this was yet another mistake in the Rule Book, that was correcte3d in the annual.

Fast cav, do not auto rally, but if they do rally (thus need for musc) they can move as normal that turn, if they CHOSE to flee, in the previous turn.

[Crimsondeath]

They also cannot shoot in the turn they rallied.

Thanee, where does it state this in the rulebook?

From my understanding, fast cav can do *anything* they normally could after fleeing, except for charging - as charges are declared before you rally your fleeing troops.

Makes sense to me.

[Impure souls]

it says it the next page over from the flyer/fast cavalry/skirmisher page. o and sorry i havnt bought the annual it didnt know it contained updated rules,i thught it was just painted stuff and the like! so what is actually going on- which set of rules is it ?

[Impure souls]

so which lot of rules is it??

[Da'al]

They also cannot shoot in the turn they rallied.

Thanee, where does it state this in the rulebook?

From my understanding, fast cav can do *anything* they normally could after fleeing, except for charging - as charges are declared before you rally your fleeing troops.

Makes sense to me.

I've been agonizing over this, myself, and I have come to the conclusion that the FC can't shoot in the turn in which they rally (which is a damned shame, IMO). The 'Rallying' section on page 75 (US paperback) says that a rallied unit "may not shoot or fight" in the turn in which it rallied. The FC rules for rallying on page 117 only say that the FC unit may "move normally" (does this mean move or march?), which is more than regular units, which only get to reform, get to do after rallying.

The FC rules are in dire need of a rewrite, since there are a lot of unanswered questions about what happens after rally from fleeing as a charge response!

[Da'al]

Here's my exchange with the Roolzboyz, in which I skool the roolzfoolz (using someone else's message as the starter):

I’ve got fast cavalry with missile weapons (let’s call them Dark Riders), and my opponent has charged them. As a charge response, the DRs flee and are not caught. On my next turn, the DRs rally.

Can they:

1) March, use their free reforms, and shoot
2) March, reform, but then not shoot
3) Move normal (no march), but shoot anyway
4) Move normal and use free reforms, but then not shoot.

1) no
2) yes
3) yes
4) no

So…why can’t the DRs shoot while marching after a rally (again, page 117 seems to allow it if any shooting happens)?

Marching Units can not fight, change formation,or wheel (page 54). While the Fast Cav rules allow for you to reform even from a march (page 117) they do not allow you to wheel or fight. Fighting includes shooting, when you march your weapons are put up, so you can not use them.

Actually, if you look at the bottom of the left-hand column of page 117, you’ll see “Fast cavalry armed with missile weapons are expert at shooting from horseback (or wolfback!) and can therefore shoot even when marching.” Does that change your take on it?

<<no reply>>

And I still haven't gotten anyone 'official' to give me a page citation that proves (and not just suggests) that FC can shoot after they rally...


"Annual 2003:Fast Cav Q&A", maybe?


I just got a message from Marc Robson (of Ld10) in which he said that whether or not FC get to shoot after rallying was "clarified in one of the White Dwarf Q&As"...I've asked for an issue number!

[Walkerd]

I am at work and do not have the books at the moment but my understanding was that Fast Cav could shoot after reforming. Under rally it is defined as a type of reform.

Would this not mean Fast Cav can reform, move and fire on the turn they rally?

[Da'al]

I am at work and do not have the books at the moment but my understanding was that Fast Cav could shoot after reforming. Under rally it is defined as a type of reform.

Would this not mean Fast Cav can reform, move and fire on the turn they rally?

I interpret it that, yes, FC can shoot after reforming, -but- rallying is not a type of reform (regular units have to spend all of their turn reforming, but that's an effect of the rally)--and the rules specify that rallied units can't shoot, but they don't specify that rallied FC can shoot, although they do specify that the FC can move after rallying.

Is this oversight or more poor writing on GW's part? Possibly, and it seems like almost everyone has read somewhere that FC can shoot after rallying, but no one can give a specific citation for the rule. To be honest, I thought that FC could shoot after rallying, too, but when I went to show this to someone, I couldn't find the written rule...

[Crimsondeath]

I am at work and do not have the books at the moment but my understanding was that Fast Cav could shoot after reforming. Under rally it is defined as a type of reform.

Would this not mean Fast Cav can reform, move and fire on the turn they rally?

Yes, this is my take on it too.

I went home and read the rulebook after my last email and it basically says that after you flee and subsequently rally, you spend the turn reforming.

Now a special rule of Fast Cavalry is that they may freely move and shoot whilst reforming any number of times.

This seems pretty logical to me.

The roolzboyz (from Daal_Urnxukuth) are clearly incorrect on a number of points, and I would disagree with them that shooting is a part of fighting...