The Dreaded Beastmaster

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Langmann
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The Dreaded Beastmaster

Post by Langmann »

I envision the beastmaster as being able to lead an army of beasts or at least a small number to aid a DE army. He should himself not be a combat monster, but should use beasts in a concerted effect.

Therefore I think the beastmaster should have magic items available:

Salve of Healing 5 points : may be taken numerous times, can be used to heal a wound of any beast in base contact.

Ring of Mind Control 25 points : beastmaster can control actions of any beast, including harpies, cold ones, telepathically within 12". Beasts may therefore use beastmaster leadership. Can fight/move independently of apprentices/riders as long as within 12" of ring. Cold ones may roll stupidity tests on 3d6, discarding highest dice.

Work with Beast 5-10 points : may be taken numerous times. Can be used to increase one statistic of any beast by +1.

Ring of Motherly Defence 25 points : Any beast within 12" of ringbearer will add +1A as it views the ringbearer as its own offspring.

I don't know if this has been done before, any feedback? More ideas?
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Re: The Dreaded Beastmaster

Post by Gaz taylor »

langmann wrote:Salve of Healing 5 points : may be taken numerous times, can be used to heal a wound of any beast in base contact.


Me thinks that this is a wee bit powerful! Especially as...

a) It can be taken multiple times
b) It costs five points
c) It can be used on beasts (which would include Manticores, Dragons, and Hydras!!!)!!!!!!!

Ring of Mind Control 25 points : beastmaster can control actions of any beast, including harpies, cold ones, telepathically within 12". Beasts may therefore use beastmaster leadership. Can fight/move independently of apprentices/riders as long as within 12" of ring. Cold ones may roll stupidity tests on 3d6, discarding highest dice.


Ooh! Another item that seems a bit too much powerful! I think it should be either it works for Harpies !or Cold Ones, plus it would allow a reroll for the first failed Ld test (in the case of Harpies) or a reroll for the first failed stupidity test (for the CO).

Work with Beast 5-10 points : may be taken numerous times. Can be used to increase one statistic of any beast by +1.


Ooh! Another item that seems a bit too much powerful! Refer to my first comment above!!!

Ring of Motherly Defence 25 points : Any beast within 12" of ringbearer will add +1A as it views the ringbearer as its own offspring.


Seems better than the rest of your suggestions, but I have difficulty seeing that a DE beast would view a Beastmaster as it's Offspring. Especially as DE Beastmasters are some of the most evil and sadistic creatures to step foot on the earth of the WFB world!
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Post by Sureal »

"Look it that! Your dragon only has 1 wound left - it's going to die!"
"Wanna bet?"
*pulls out 25 points of healing salves and dragons back to tpo health.*
"....but..."
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Re: The Dreaded Beastmaster

Post by Langmann »

Gaz Taylor wrote:
langmann wrote:Salve of Healing 5 points : may be taken numerous times, can be used to heal a wound of any beast in base contact.


Me thinks that this is a wee bit powerful! Especially as...

a) It can be taken multiple times
b) It costs five points
c) It can be used on beasts (which would include Manticores, Dragons, and Hydras!!!)!!!!!!!



Ring of Mind Control 25 points : beastmaster can control actions of any beast, including harpies, cold ones, telepathically within 12". Beasts may therefore use beastmaster leadership. Can fight/move independently of apprentices/riders as long as within 12" of ring. Cold ones may roll stupidity tests on 3d6, discarding highest dice.


Ooh! Another item that seems a bit too much powerful! I think it should be either it works for Harpies !or Cold Ones, plus it would allow a reroll for the first failed Ld test (in the case of Harpies) or a reroll for the first failed stupidity test (for the CO).

Work with Beast 5-10 points : may be taken numerous times. Can be used to increase one statistic of any beast by +1.


Ooh! Another item that seems a bit too much powerful! Refer to my first comment above!!!

Ring of Motherly Defence 25 points : Any beast within 12" of ringbearer will add +1A as it views the ringbearer as its own offspring.


Seems better than the rest of your suggestions, but I have difficulty seeing that a DE beast would view a Beastmaster as it's Offspring. Especially as DE Beastmasters are some of the most evil and sadistic creatures to step foot on the earth of the WFB world!


Consider your first point: May be powerful but you have to get the beast out of combat to use it, or bring the beastmaster into combat where he is extremely vulnerable. If you had to get the beast out of combat and retreat back to the protected beastmaster it will mean the beast is not useful that turn. In other words in a 6 turn game the beast is useless for one turn, perhaps two. Plus if made it a 10 point item then you could only repair two wounds.

Consider the ring of telepathy, the beastmaster must be within 12". He is therefore vulnerable to missle fire etc unless in a unit, which could be attacked if the enemy was smart. Dead beastmaster and the monsters make monster rolls meaning most will either flee or just sit there. There is a strong weakness to this also. As for the harpies, they couldn't just fly in and benefit from leadership when attacking artillery. They'd have to have the beastmaster along (within 12"), which means once again he's vulnerable. Also if the beastmaster ever left 12" then the monsters would take reaction rolls... perhaps fleeing! Powerful yes but also with weakness!

Consider upgrading a statistic. You can only upgrade one statistic on a single beast. Not all his statistics. I don't know if I made that clear. Thus hydra may be upgraded once only. Why shouldn't DE beasts be that much better? Other races have deadly stuff.

As to the ring of motherly protection. Thats why its magic, if it wasn't magic then of course the beasts would never view the beastmaster favourably. Beastmasters are sadistic, and would love to use the beasts psychology to their own benefits, fight to the death for the druchii!

Do you have any suggestions to make the beastmaster useable? Otherwise he's a complete waste of time, and the monsters aren't cohesive or that much different from other armies.
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Post by Langmann »

Sureal wrote:"Look it that! Your dragon only has 1 wound left - it's going to die!"
"Wanna bet?"
*pulls out 25 points of healing salves and dragons back to tpo health.*
"....but..."


Remember all this stuff can only be used by beastmasters!
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Post by Sureal »

I surpose, but still, having taging along with your highborn (The BM would be on a manticore of coarse) would be rather cheesy :roll: .
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Post by Langmann »

Sureal wrote:I surpose, but still, having taging along with your highborn (The BM would be on a manticore of coarse) would be rather cheesy :roll: .


Beastmasters die fast. Also could make the salve of healing 10 points. I would never send him along on a manticore like that, would be a waste of points, plus a great target.

Also could make it so the salve cannot be used while a beast is in combat.

Can you think of any better ideas for the beastmaster??? Right now hes pretty much a useless waste of a hero slot.
Last edited by Langmann on Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by The millenium hand »

langmann wrote:Right now hes pretty much a useless waste of a hero slot.


Two hero slots if he's on a Manticore
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Re: The Dreaded Beastmaster

Post by Gaz taylor »

Langmann, I'm sorry but I still think the items you've suggested are a load of rubbish. They are quite simply just too good for the points! If you want suggestions for improving beastmasters, then I imagine that they would do breeding programs to produce stronger and more agressive creatures, and / or making pacts with sorceress to use magic to improve the abilities of the beasties!
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Re: The Dreaded Beastmaster

Post by Langmann »

Gaz Taylor wrote:Langmann, I'm sorry but I still think the items you've suggested are a load of rubbish. They are quite simply just too good for the points! If you want suggestions for improving beastmasters, then I imagine that they would do breeding programs to produce stronger and more agressive creatures, and / or making pacts with sorceress to use magic to improve the abilities of the beasties!


Try using it first, we have. Its not easy to use and I don't think the points are off. Remember beastmasters only have 25 magic points. So in other words could only take one ring. You could take an army of all beastmasters to overcome this but it would be deficient in a lot of ways.

Its hard to use like some people use the steamtank. Beasts cannot totally walk all over a unit.

My idea of increasing any ability of the beast once, is similar to your idea of breeding programs...

You want cheeze, try other armies. Druchii need some cheezing up, in order to make us different.
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Re: The Dreaded Beastmaster

Post by Gaz taylor »

langmann wrote:Try using it first, we have. Its not easy to use and I don't think the points are off.


I may give it a go if you make some more effort. For instance are they all magic items and if so what type are they. If not are they a upgrade or not? Are the items a one use thing or can they be used multiple times?

But I can grantee that the points ARE off!

You want cheeze, try other armies. Druchii need some cheezing up, in order to make us different.


erm.... that doesn't make sence? If I want cheese, try another army, yet DE need cheesing up to make them different? I'm sorry but where I come from thats a bit contradicting! Also I would say if you want cheese, go back to the 5th edition as the 6th is a lot less fromage frai!

I can understand that you've put some effort into this (possibly.... :D), but I really, really, really, do think you need to go back and try again.
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Post by Langmann »

Actually my original intent was to see if people like the idea of making the beastmaster a little more useful/different/fluffed, and then my suggestions were simply new things we were trying.

I was actually hoping people would contribute ideas to make the beastmaster interesting, I was definately not trying to state the last and final word on what the beastmaster should be. Just suggestions.

As to the points, I see exactly where you are coming from. Its 50 points to raise a stat generally for a character so it should be so for the monsters as well.

I am of the same mind as Thanee, that points should be more done differently, due to what makes sense when playing a particular army, not just what the standard is. Example is that a monster will have a hard time managing a regiment on its own (in this edition). I think raising a stat, be it wounds or whatever, will not greatly improve that. Raising a monster's wounds, for example, by 1 from say 6 to 7 is not in my HUMBLE opinion not worth as much compared to raising that for a character. And raising a DE/HE char from T3 to T4 is not as good as raising a dwarf from T5 to T6, even though it would cost the same in points. Say we raised the BM magic/item/ability availability to 50 points from 25, and then made him being able to raise a monster's stat by ONE POINT ONLY costing him his entire 50 points, its something most people would never do. I wouldn't. It would cost me 90 points (BM + 50 for stat). I'd rather take some units. So we should make this a useful item. So lets make the cost 10 points and he can take it multiple times. In one army of 2000 you could have 2 hydra, 1 or 2 manticores depending, or perhaps one dragon. The most that the beastmaster could do is raise every monster by 1 point. This is now an expensive army of beasts, something the beastmaster could lead. Its still not an uber army, it would have difficulty. Generally people will not field that many beasts in 2000 points and expect to win. If all the BM could do is raise one monster, costing 50 points, by one stat, NO-ONE would do ever do it.

I'm trying to make a neat idea, an army that could have a serious beastmaster contribution, make it something people would take, not be too cheezy, and yet add variety to what is becoming a typical DE list.

The ring of mind control actually works rather nicely, accentuates the beastmaster's ability to ride an animal into battle and not have it lose control when the BM dies. In this case if the BM dies, the animals make reaction tests. The BM has to be within 12" so in actual fact this make a nice target for races that have artillery. Something will get hit with all those beasts near each other. Plus the BM, being a wimp, is a great target. Kill him and the beasts fall apart. What we've had is a BM on a manticore having two hydras and skirmishers of harpies. In a 2000 point game this means NO RBT. Put a unit amongst this and you have a neat striking force, but one that is also vulnerable, especially to flankers and missiles. So the rings not worth 1000's points. I'd say 25 - 50, taking up entirely what the BM is allowed to take.

The ring of motherly protection, has its faults also. +1A for each beast is not easy if the BM has to be within 12".

Healing salves are neat but the beast must generally return to be healed. I have played with them at 10 points/multiple available, 5 points, 25 and 50 points. If it is 50 points or 25 points, the most you can repair is one wound. NO ONE would take it. I have never used it in combat, having the monsters return from combat or having the BM get close while the monsters wait. It takes a monster out for at least one turn, and allows the enemy to charge/shoot/kill the monster if you are not careful. The balance I think is 10 points/wound, you will only get back 2 wounds. It does not make the monsters too tough. I have found it work nicely against armies with high shooting who are able to kill monsters easily before they even get close to attack. This way you heal some wounds of the monster when you get halfway and then the monster can charge with usually 50-60% of his wounds available. I have had dwarf armies kill the monster even with healing salves before they get close.

I DO NOT like cheeze. I like the 6th edition better, I like the concentration on normal core troops. Don't like HEROHammer. However some armies have cool lists that seem to make them distinct from other armies. I think the DE army list, having some cool ideas, needs fleshing out. Thats all. Some armies have serious cheeze, like the steam tank. Its hard for DE to deal with it while easy for other armies to deal with it. I don't like having to arm my highborn with gauntlet dragon etc to charge the steamtank all the time. It lacks variety, its boring.

The idea of a BM that rides suicidal into battle atop a Manticore may appeal to some. Usually my enemy will target the BM as he is easy CR, thus I usually know I will lose at least 1 CR from what I may gain as manticore kills. If I arm the BM its possible for him to remove all base contact troops and thus not die or get whittled down. HOWEVER if I can take a highborn and plop him on the manticore I'll never use the BM EVER. Which makes him another useless choice on the druchii list. OF course I can think of times he has been useful, against T3 troops. He's not bad for flanking. Against tough troops that don't flee easily like dwarves he dies. Against troops with a char that challenges, he dies quickly. In other words he not totally useless, but not very fluffy, as I picture a BM as a valuable druchii who can lead several beasts into battle, rears and takes care of them (he may be evil but its in his best interest to have healthy beasts), and not a HtH monster. Highborns and nobles are for HtH.

Sorry for the long posts. Please understand I am not saying my ideas are the best/final/set in stone etc.
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Post by Gaz taylor »

langmann wrote:As to the points, I see exactly where you are coming from. Its 50 points to raise a stat generally for a character so it should be so for the monsters as well.

I am of the same mind as Thanee, that points should be more done differently, due to what makes sense when playing a particular army, not just what the standard is.


Unfortuantly the standard is how we figure out how to create relatively equal armies, but I do agree that that shouldn't be 'it'. There should be some differance in the points of items depending an what has access to said item, just not a whopping 45 point differance!!! :D

I think the DE army list, having some cool ideas, needs fleshing out. Thats all.


Agreed, but then again thats what you get with a half finished list that was rushed out! I think when GW get round to looking at the DE again they will need figure out if they should be either fast raiders or a beast army. At the moment it struggles at either!
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Post by Adreal_the_immaculate »

well i don't know your porblems but from what you have said a beastmaster/ manticore and highborn/ black dragon combo sucks (i think you said something like that) i have found exactly the opposite, that little combo works wonders :twisted: guess its just me
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Post by Langmann »

adreal_the_immaculate wrote:well i don't know your porblems but from what you have said a beastmaster/ manticore and highborn/ black dragon combo sucks (i think you said something like that) i have found exactly the opposite, that little combo works wonders :twisted: guess its just me


That is not what I said at all, I wonder how you got that from my post??? :shock:

What I said is that the beastmaster does not seem fleshed out at all. He is a GOOD idea but he should be more distinct from just someone who rides manticores...

What I said is that the highborn on a manticore is a better option in a 2000 point game, perhaps that is where you got that from. Also a highborn on a black dragon rocks, I've never lost combat with that...

Please read my posts again. You didn't understand what I was saying at all. :roll:
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Post by Barondesade »

I would be happy if the BM could control some of the monsters in the HE book. Maybe 100 points worth of monsters = 1 special choice. Something like that.
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Post by Vorchild »

Considering that the dungeons below Karond Kar are supposed to contain at least one of every type of monster in the warhammer world, the Baron's idea seems quite good.
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Post by Barondesade »

Yes, if you read the 5th edition DE codex, you can see that we used to have a virtual cornucopia of monsters to pick from. I can't help but think that putting them all in the HE book this time was another insult.
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Post by Tz'arkan »

Yeah I think we should be AT LEAST able to take animals from other armies but have little annoying penalties(ideas anyone?), like having to roll 2d6 and if they get 11 or 12 the monster attacks the beastmaster. Maybe a beastmaster could have harpies use his Ld somehow. Maybe a few beastmaster-oriented items. This way, more armies would implement Beastmasters and they would be more effective. (ideas plz)
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Post by Adreal_the_immaculate »

langmann wrote:
That is not what I said at all, I wonder how you got that from my post??? :shock:



hmm ok i was wrong
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Post by Keledron »

If you want a BeastLord then take Beast Lord Rakarth - he's been officialised in the Chronicles 2003. A bit sttep on the points but makes an interesting choice as general if you want a beasts based army
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