The Skaven Crushed Me, Again...

[Barondesade]

Hello All,

I took another beating from the Skaven last night, and I'm still a little sore about it. Not that my opponent wasn't a real nice guy, because he was. It's just that his army was really quite powerful and I found it extremely frustrating that there wasn't much I could do about it.

We were playing in the "Day after the blizzard" setup, which meant that we could deploy at 16", but movement was halved. I thought that this was pretty good because I could use some of my missiles to soften up his troops a litte.

Well, it didn't really work out like I had hoped. He brought three Ratling Guns and three Warplock Engineers (who carried the Storm Demon and the Warpscrolls) which were absolutely devastating to my troops. He screened these units with plenty of slaves and clanrats on the flanks and a big group of Plague Rats in the center. Gotta love those Plague Rats, how they are unbreakable and don't block LOS. They really are the perfect thing to have in the center of your force.

Anyhow, the game did not go so well. Once his weapons were in range, he turned my T3 guys into hash, even the COK's. His Gutter Runners tunneled up next to my RBT's and killed both of them without working up a sweat. My RXB troops were hitting fine, but he had a Fighter Lord out there giving everybody LD 10, so there was no panic. I really don't know who edited the Skaven book, saw that you could give Skaven Slaves LD 10, and said "That's fair." The Warpscroll was devastating to my Spearmen and when the Clanrats charged in, there was no way they could have held. Even my Higborn was killed in the last round of the game, when a Warlock Engineer fried him and then he took 11 hits from a Ratling gun.

I feel kind of mad now, because I don't really know that there was anything else I could have done against that army, even if I could have changed mine and he kept his the same. I just really feel that the Skaven are too powerful compared to the Dark Elves. Here are my reasons:

The Skaven can flood the board with cheap troops that have good LD, easily overcoming the few expensive DE troops and/or taking the Druchii missile fire without loosing force integrity.

The Skaven can have more, better magic than DE for cheaper.

The powerful Skaven shooting and magic with it's 180 to 360 arcs of fire easily defeat DE maneuver troops and flying monsters.

Skaven can have more, better, assault troops for cheaper, such as Plague Monks, which are much better and cheaper than Witch Elves (better T, ability to have Hatred and Frenzy, or Death Frenzy.

Skaven have access to better magical equipment.

Pretty much, Skaven can outclass DE in any area they want, except for manueverability, which is countered by the effectiveness of Skaven missile weapons such as the Ratling Gun and magic such as Warp Lightining, both of which devastate Dark Rider, Harpy, Shade units without difficulty. Worse still, Skaven are cheap enough to outclass DE in several areas at once. For example, my opponent last night had better shooting, and better magic, and more troops. I had better armor on one unit, and another unit was faster, but in the end, he easily negated those advantages.

Now, I know that one of the defenses that the Skaven players make is that their equipment tends to destroy the user. Against another Skaven army, or an Orc army, the enemy might have enough troops to "wear out" the Skaven without losing their own force integrity, but Dark Elves do not. As Gav so kindly put it in the first page of the DE book, "While the Skaven or Goblin player may ignore the loss of a regiment or two, a Dark Elf commander can ill afford such losses." Thanks Gav, it only takes one or two battles to figure that out.

Dark Elves have traditionally made up for their weaknesses through clever maneuvering and use of missile weapons to weaken the foe before attacking. Skaven can negate both of those actions with their ability to effectivly shoot and cast spells in all directions, their cheap mass of numbers to absorb missile causualties, and their high LD to avoid panic. Just as Gav intended, DE lose when they are forced to go toe-to-toe with an enemy half as expensive as they are. So, what choice do we have but to die?

Death to the Skaven!

[Langmann]

I think slaves having a high LD is wrong, have always felt that.

[Whaledawg]

Did you have any magic? Black horror will decimate skaven. Dominion can force one of his units to stay back and thereby expose a flank and soulstealer will cut a unit in half every time u cast that. I would have to say that these things make skaven not outclass DE in magic.

As for those tunnelers and the RBT that is a problem. As far as I know the best way to handle that is to leave back a hero and wait for them to pop out.
The nightrunners really arent that tough so he should do fine against them with some good items. I myself am looking for better solutions though

I think that against skaven RXB are worthless. To get them to give u enough kills to cause a panic test u have to set them in the open and not them move as the enemy comes in to anihilate them. Leave those out vs skaven.

Plague rats dont block line of sight? Their a normal unit, not skirmishers even. The ones who have those flails skirmish but they ahve to be attached to a regular plague rat unit. An I never heard anything about them not blocking line of sight, they have giant smoking flails!!!!!!
I think u should look that one up(though I cant say for sure that I'm right)

As for ratling guns......well I dont see an easy answer for them. We dont have anything that can effectivly deal with them as long as he screens them properly. The only thing I can think of is black horror bc u get to place the template.

I think u have the unfortunate luck to play a guy who has alot of ratling guns and slaves. Most skaven players dont have too many slaves(they're
2 pts each and are metal!!!!!!). I would refuse to play him again unless he limits that stuff. Thats what we did with the eldar wraithlord thing in 40k and most eldar players had no problem with it.

There are different tactics u could try too. I've written things that have worked for me elsewhere in the forum.

Good luck

[Barondesade]

Plague Rats = Rat Swarms with poisoned teeth. They are unbreakable and don't block LOS.

Dominion and Black Horror are great spells, no question about it, and I have used these in the past against the rats. However, Dominon is 12" ranged and Black Horror is 18" ranged. Sure, I could probably get one off, but the Warlock Engineers can hit me back at 24".

I haven't seen anyone use metal slaves. They just take the plastic Clanrats and paint them differently.

Thanks for the advice, though.

[Whaledawg]

I was thinking of plague monks.

Well, seen one rat seem em all

[Thanee]

Well, I have only played against the Skaven once, and he did not have an equally efficient setup (i.e. no Rat Swarms).

Some things I found very useful...

* Magic (Black Horror and Soulstealer mainly, also a high magic defense seems like a good idea (altho I had none, since I played Morathi as my only Sorceress ))
* Dark Riders with RXB to kill the Ratling Guns, once the formation is broken up and they can get next to them
* Large Flyers who can wait outside of Ratling Gun range and charge over the heads of other units, so they can get a flank charge, even against Skaven

What I found no real use for...

* RBTs

Bye
Thanee

[Whaledawg]

I must respectfully disagree thanee....

Or at least your wrong about RBT. And here is why:

With 2 u can, on average, force a smaller unit of clanrats to take a leadership test. For this to be remotely effective u need them up high
but if u cant find a hill that will hold 2 RBT then I think u made a mistake during setup. This is important bc, as i have said b4, once rats start running they dont stop. Most skaven players take 1 HUGE clanrat chunk right in the middle and smaller ones covering its flanks. If they have a size less than 25 I think u can make them panic early.

They are also good against the plague monks that Baron was talking about(in my world). They have a high toughness and frenzy and those sensor bearers chew u up. RBT r the BEST way to deal with these guys bc they have a highert T than other skaven.

yeah, thats it.

Man, am i drunk

Obviously

Bye
Thanee

[Promises]

Indeed Skaven often have some things that really bother DE; they have a LOT of troops (such a lot you can't just burst through the flank), they have magic, spells and missile fire that can go to almost every direction (one of the few things you really can't help, and which will often kill your Shades and DR and such), and are just... SO CHEAP. The things I found effecitive are (besides magic, which also let me down some times so I wouldn't count on it) are just trowing VERY much on one flank at a time, leaving the other flank open. Just throw COK, COC and some Corsairs or DR on one flank, overrun it and try to hold the middle. Since Skaven have no cavalry it'll be some time till the other flank gives your problems, and with about 3 Dispell Scrolls you should hold out at least 2 turns against his magic. In combat you'll probably defeat him (even when going 1-1 on a unit), so that isn't the real problem. GL indeed, I hate the ratthings 2 =)

[Pokeme]

All I have to say is that Ratling guns and WLC are almost impossible to destroy...........and they shouldn't.

You guys forgot about those gutter runers........they appear from nowhere and can break your regiment if they manage to get a rear attack off!!!

[Thanee]

With 2 u can, on average, force a smaller unit of clanrats to take a leadership test. For this to be remotely effective u need them up high but if u cant find a hill that will hold 2 RBT then I think u made a mistake during setup. This is important bc, as i have said b4, once rats start running they dont stop. Most skaven players take 1 HUGE clanrat chunk right in the middle and smaller ones covering its flanks. If they have a size less than 25 I think u can make them panic early.

They are also good against the plague monks that Baron was talking about(in my world). They have a high toughness and frenzy and those sensor bearers chew u up. RBT r the BEST way to deal with these guys bc they have a highert T than other skaven.

Skaven do NOT panic easily! They have a Ld of 10 when they're led by a Warlord!

Also, when the Skaven brings the Storm Banner, the RBTs won't hit anything!

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

All I have to say is that Ratling guns and WLC are almost impossible to destroy...........and they shouldn't.

You guys forgot about those gutter runers........they appear from nowhere and can break your regiment if they manage to get a rear attack off!!!

WLC flees as soon as you charge it, not that hard to get rid of. I agree about the Ratling Guns, they cannot be targeted, usually. Black Horror works good against those.

Gutter Runners do not appear out of nowhere, the position where they'll appear is fixed from the start of the battle on, so a rear charge of those is easily avoided.

Bye
Thanee

[Whaledawg]

And as for makin skaven panic with the RBT, they do have a 10 ld if
ranked up and within 12 inches of their general. Their general is usualy with the center LARGE pack and often the other rat units are too far away to use his leadership. Out there they only have a ld 8 and that means they will fail it 1 of 3 times(approx).

Thanee stop editing my posts ... Stop that !!!

It's really very easy to have me stop... you know how!

Bye
Thanee

[Lord draekor]

I've fought Skaven regularly in both 5th and 6th editions. I haven't had the honor of fighting them since the new army book came out however. I've heard rumors of Jazzail teams in multiples, like 20 in a 2000 point game along with ratling guns and lightning cannons, oh and the magic can cause some real damage. Of course the time honored plague monks ( a "no brainer" unit? ) and cheap T3, M5 and high leadership troops really hurt. More than one "unbreakable" unit in an army is wrong, IMO.

Since Skaven can cover their deployment zone from end to end with combat units, manuoverability is negated. That being the case, I've found ganging up on a flank and overwhelming a side, as suggested by another poster, is usually the best and only bet.

Due to the high leadership and great numbers of Skaven, forgo shooting. This edition of the game favors hand to hand (unless your skaven, empire or to a lesser degree dwarves) so try to pick on his units that are at least breakable. Of course, that's always easier said than done.

Skaven are the second worst army to play against, just below the shooty empire, because it hightens the negatives of the Dark Elves (and elf issues in general) to such a degree it's frustrating as all hell.

[Thanee]

Yep, overwhelming one flank and then rolling up the army from one side sounds like the best tactic against them.

One should still use minimal units on the other flank, so that the Skaven cannot simply turn all their attention towards the whole army.

Bye
Thanee

[Dekhalan]

One should still use minimal units on the other flank, so that the Skaven cannot simply turn all their attention towards the whole army.

How about a fully reserved flank Thanee ? Keep missile units and blocks infantry back near the deployment area on one flank while the other flank has the dark riders, chariots, cold one riders, fast moving monsters and fast moving characters quickly crushing the opposing skaven flank ? That way they would be forced into your plan of spliting their forces in two but we Druchii would have good control over who they fought. If the other flank turns to support the other, you could always move up the infantry + you are always shooting...

Just a thought, tell me what you think.

[Barondesade]

It's not a bad idea, although clanrat units are fairly tough to beat down, given their 4+ save and the fact that they will just about always have an outnumbering bonus on you. Give them LD 10 and a nearby BSB and they can stick around with the best of them.

The first problem is that if you run into one of their unbreakable rat swarms, you are dead in the water for at least a turn. Meanwhile, the rest of his M5 army redeploys and crushes you. All of the Dark Elf fast units, Dark Riders and Harpies, are extremely vulnerable to Ratling guns and Warp Lightining, and they will likely be the first targets. COK's and Chariots can stand up a little better, but not much, and Khaine forbid he should get any of his Plague Censer Bearers in contact with your COK's.

The second problem is that even if you manage to engage the rats in Hth combat, he can still pound you with Warp Lightining, Ratling Guns, Jezzails, WL Cannon, Warpfire Throwers, and Poisoned Wind Globes. He has a 50/50 chance of hitting himself, but when his troops are 50% cheaper than yours anyhow, he'll easily win any war of attrition.

And Thanee is right about the Storm Banner. It's ability to ruin missile fire and ground flyers really screws the Dark Elves. The nice thing is, though, if he does take the Storm Banner, he won't take many missile weapons of his own.

To me, this illustrates one of the reasons why I think that the Skaven army is overpowered. Given their overabundance of cheap, good troops, one would reasonably assume that small, fast, hard hitting units would be the way to cope with such an army, but the Skaven are so blessed with autohitting spells and missile weapons and armor piercing and armor ignoring equipment, that there really is no weakness to the army.

[Lord draekor]

When I read the Skaven book, I see what I _can_ take and/or do, like the High Elf book, like the Chaos book, etc. Totally unlike the Dark Elf book where I see and read what I _CAN'T_ do. Skaven have so many good choices it's sick, unlike our book. Bummer. Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

The part about firing into combat didn't register with me earlier. That's breaking the game, IMO. Let's see, Skaven can fire into combat (and why care if you hit your own anyway being so cheap) but we can't land the Black Horror template on top of an enemy unit in combat. Figures.

I have to get out and play a few games against this new Skaven list. There are a few good, long time, Skaven players I know and they'll quickly teach me the power of this new shooty style enemy, backed by decent hand to hand and truly elite hand to hand troops of course.

[Pokeme]

Hey anyone seen the storm warpscroll? Ever seen a dragon or a manticore going up in flames

[Dungeon_god]

Plague rats dont block line of sight? Their a normal unit, not skirmishers even. The ones who have those flails skirmish but they ahve to be attached to a regular plague rat unit. An I never heard anything about them not blocking line of sight, they have giant smoking flails!!!!!!
I think u should look that one up(though I cant say for sure that I'm right)

Umm, Plague RAts are swarms, they ARE skirmishers, and they do NOT block line of sight (being small and all)-trust me, I also play skaven, and Plague rats rock.

[Dungeon_god]

damn, didn't see baron had already replied.

[Dungeon_god]

With 2 u can, on average, force a smaller unit of clanrats to take a leadership test. For this to be remotely effective u need them up high but if u cant find a hill that will hold 2 RBT then I think u made a mistake during setup. This is important bc, as i have said b4, once rats start running they dont stop. Most skaven players take 1 HUGE clanrat chunk right in the middle and smaller ones covering its flanks. If they have a size less than 25 I think u can make them panic early.

They are also good against the plague monks that Baron was talking about(in my world). They have a high toughness and frenzy and those sensor bearers chew u up. RBT r the BEST way to deal with these guys bc they have a highert T than other skaven.

Skaven do NOT panic easily! They have a Ld of 10 when they're led by a Warlord!

Also, when the Skaven brings the Storm Banner, the RBTs won't hit anything!

Bye
Thanee

The key is to hit the flanks-they are not usually close enough to the warlord to benefit from his leadership.

[Dungeon_god]

Gutter Runners do not appear out of nowhere, the position where they'll appear is fixed from the start of the battle on, so a rear charge of those is easily avoided.

Unless they scatter...

[Thanee]

Yep, but that can be taken into consideration, when you move your units.

Bye
Thanee

[Malekithau]

Skaven, when used by a decent general, are one of the most powerful armies in the game. They have everything the DE have and more -

Skirmishers - theirs can actually fight in HTH. These guys (night runners and gutter runners negate the manuevrability of DR)
Shooters - 6 Jezzails for 120 points or 1 RBT for 100 points? Which is a better bet?
Movement 5 on their infantry makes their infantry blocks every bit as fast as ours.
Magic - with the cheap cost of warlocks DE magic is rendered practically useless.
Assassins that can infiltrate and have decent missile weapons.
Toe to toe their infantry is not much worse then ours. Hitting 50% of the time (Skaven) as opposed to 67% is not that different especially when they will nearly always have outnumbering bonus. The cheapness of their troops also means that you usually have to contend with flank charges.
Leadership 10.

If used by an inferior general or Clan Moulder themed they will go down easier but they can be very forgiving. Not as forgiving as an undead army but with all those troops a couple of lost units is no big thing.

John O

[Barondesade]

The key to every army is to hit the flanks!

Every army is in trouble if their troops start to flee!

Every regiment loses strength as they lose ranks!

The so-called Skaven 'weaknesses' only come into play [/i]after the rats have already gotten their butts kicked!

Jeez, or should I say, Cheez?