Druchii fluff aggression

[Dungeon_god]

I also think if the above is true then it's bad marketing by GW to relie on poeple buying a second army to sell Delfs.

Especially since their game costs so much (not as much as some other hobbies, but still quite a bit).

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

But...DE do have a niche: Stupidity. We have the greatest possible number of units/army (since our list is so small) that can be affected by stupidity: Highborn on CO, High Sorceress on CO, Noble on CO, Sorceress on CO, Beastmaster on CO, CO Knights, and CO Chariot! A quick calculation shows that, with a little effort, 7 of our 19 possible units (including characters) can have to make that simple little check every turn! I challenge any other army list to be that stupid!!!

Heh, thanks for giving me a good laugh this morning.

So sad, yet so true...

[Dekhalan]

I feel this quote is appropriate to this thread...

"Strength and Toughness are the bread and butter of the Warhammer game."

Now, anybody know who said that ?

[Darius foulblood]

Let me have a go at finding the powerfull and/or characteristic parts in the list

Dark Elf advantages/trademarks:

Hero: Assasin. Very cool hero whose pressence in an army will keep your opponenet guessing and even hesitate to charge some of your units. Charging a heavy cavalry into a warrior regiment won`t be so tempting to your opponent as long as an assasin is yet to be revealed. The only race with something similar is skaven.


Hero: Beastmaster. Cheap, characterfull and enables you to take a really good flying monster that will stay normal even if the rider is killed. Unique ability.


Lord: High Sorceress. The only lvl 3-4 magic user allowed to ride a competent monster into battle (apart from chaos) She is also better at casting than others and even has a Magic Lore unique to our race. She also has the ability of getting a fast flying steed to let her rain magic from everywhere on the table.


Lord: Highborn. We are one of the only four races able to take dragons, not only that but their breath weapons are better. Highborns are also superior fighters and leaders compared to most lords from , and with the Gauntlet of Power you are the enemy`s nightmare.

Hero: Noble. Where other Hero- levels are rather poor leaders and fighters, nobles are exellent. The units they lead are hard to break and gain a considerable advantage from their combat abilities. Also, druchii battle standards are top notch, you get to pick from increased CR, increased attack power, added charge range and even Unbreakable!

Core: Warriors. Diciplined, skilled but fragile and weak. However, they add the ranks needed to win combats and are most commonly used as a part of an attack, not a unit that is designed to take the enemy down by itself. When equipped with RXB`s their killability increase considerably, making them one of the best missile troops in the game. They are characterfull because the druchii use tactics to overcome lack of brute force, and the warriors need to be a part of a good plan.

Core: Dark Riders. One of the best flank attack unit in the game (only barely below the Pistoliers or Goblin Wolf Riders...) that in itself makes it a powerfull unit. They are also strong in the fluff and fits the druchii style of attack.

Special: CO chariots and Knights: Powerfull but tricky to use, which is in character. Everybody think that Chosen Chaos Knights are the best, right? Look at the CoK statline first round of combat with a Hydra Banner BSB: WS5 S5 A 2 I 5 Looks terribly alot like the chosen knights attacks, but these are not infinite so they need to win the combat and break the enemy. Once more it`s characterfull, the druchii strike hard but are not well suited for protracted combat.

Special: Harpies. Harpies are cheap, flying units that are able to take care of warmachine crew. What more do you need to know? They also fit well with the beast theme of the army.

Special: Shades. Scouts with a bite! Very powerfull shooting from a small unit that is able to scout. Can be a great pain to the enemy if used corretly.

Special: Witch Elves. Fragile but packs a tremendous punch. Perhaps the very embodiment of druchii.

Rare: Black Guard. Strong, sinister and hatefull troops that are characterfull and effective.

Reaper bolt thrower: Horrifying and reliable attilery. Envied by all other races.

War Hydra: Powerfull but hard to use. Fits with the theme.



So, that was my tiny counterweight against all the negativity, but nevertheless... The druchii is a tacticians army, if somebody say that they consistently win with chaos or skaven, people goes "yeah, why am I not surprised" but if you boast the same with Dark Elves people will definetly be impressed! And to me, that is justification in itself.

[Fallen angel]

Hero: Assasin. Very cool hero whose pressence in an army will keep your opponenet guessing and even hesitate to charge some of your units. Charging a heavy cavalry into a warrior regiment won`t be so tempting to your opponent as long as an assasin is yet to be revealed. The only race with something similar is skaven.

>> Most heavy cavalry won't blink an eye if faced with the not so lethal assassin, unless he's fitted to the max (179 points!), and is easily killed.

Hero: Beastmaster. Cheap, characterfull and enables you to take a really good flying monster that will stay normal even if the rider is killed. Unique ability.

>> But I'm afgraid not worth taking, as the monster is only useful as a flanker really, and is only good at that while the unarmoured beast master is alive. Plus it's very fragile for 230 points.

Lord: High Sorceress. The only lvl 3-4 magic user allowed to ride a competent monster into battle (apart from chaos) She is also better at casting than others and even has a Magic Lore unique to our race. She also has the ability of getting a fast flying steed to let her rain magic from everywhere on the table.

>> ALL races get a flying monster for their lvl 3 - 4 magic users (except Skaven) and many get a competent monster (Griffon, Winged Nightmare, and ofcourse Chaos and DE). Plus it creates a huge point sink, makes your sorceress a large target, and means that you'll only get the full points back if she's in combat. Great.

Lord: Highborn. We are one of the only four races able to take dragons, not only that but their breath weapons are better. Highborns are also superior fighters and leaders compared to most lords from , and with the Gauntlet of Power you are the enemy`s nightmare.

>> Many lords also get ld 10, and many are better (cheaper items, better S or T).

Hero: Noble. Where other Hero- levels are rather poor leaders and fighters, nobles are exellent. The units they lead are hard to break and gain a considerable advantage from their combat abilities. Also, druchii battle standards are top notch, you get to pick from increased CR, increased attack power, added charge range and even Unbreakable!

>> Nobles are not much better than other races. About average. Same as Highborn.

Core: Warriors. Diciplined, skilled but fragile and weak. However, they add the ranks needed to win combats and are most commonly used as a part of an attack, not a unit that is designed to take the enemy down by itself. When equipped with RXB`s their killability increase considerably, making them one of the best missile troops in the game. They are characterfull because the druchii use tactics to overcome lack of brute force, and the warriors need to be a part of a good plan.

>> Warriors, IMHO, are not worth it against Corsairs, but that's me. RXB elves are poor compared to handgunners at shooting, they basically bounce off many targets.

Core: Dark Riders. One of the best flank attack unit in the game (only barely below the Pistoliers or Goblin Wolf Riders...) that in itself makes it a powerfull unit. They are also strong in the fluff and fits the druchii style of attack.

>> Yes, they are fast cavalry. A good unit.

Special: CO chariots and Knights: Powerfull but tricky to use, which is in character. Everybody think that Chosen Chaos Knights are the best, right? Look at the CoK statline first round of combat with a Hydra Banner BSB: WS5 S5 A 2 I 5 Looks terribly alot like the chosen knights attacks, but these are not infinite so they need to win the combat and break the enemy. Once more it`s characterfull, the druchii strike hard but are not well suited for protracted combat.

>> Chosen Knights are also far harder. But yes, COK are a real favourite of mine.

Special: Harpies. Harpies are cheap, flying units that are able to take care of warmachine crew. What more do you need to know? They also fit well with the beast theme of the army.

>> I've never used them but I hear they're good.

Special: Shades. Scouts with a bite! Very powerfull shooting from a small unit that is able to scout. Can be a great pain to the enemy if used corretly.

>> Umm, bite? Not really, with no ranks or standard, only light armour. Good scouts, though.

Special: Witch Elves. Fragile but packs a tremendous punch. Perhaps the very embodiment of druchii.

>> Never used, so I'll stay neutral.

Rare: Black Guard. Strong, sinister and hatefull troops that are characterfull and effective.

>> As Witch Elves, but seem more fragile due to high point cost.

Reaper bolt thrower: Horrifying and reliable attilery. Envied by all other races.

>> Yes, these are good. No doubt about it.

War Hydra: Powerfull but hard to use. Fits with the theme.

>> Agaiun, never used, but seems to work best as a missile magnet. Not worth the points compared to regiments.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the Dark Elves, but I do get the feeling we've been shafted a lot by GW. Your post was just very one sided, and often exaggerated truths.

Fallen Angel

[Knightsaber]

--Not to parrot FallenAngel's response, but I also feel that you have slightly overstated the Druchii strengths.


Dark Elf advantages/trademarks:

Hero: Assasin. Very cool hero whose pressence in an army will keep your opponenet guessing and even hesitate to charge some of your units. Charging a heavy cavalry into a warrior regiment won`t be so tempting to your opponent as long as an assasin is yet to be revealed. The only race with something similar is skaven.

-- With the best gear for the job an assassin will average 1 kill vs heavy cavalry. That is not much of a deterant in my book and not worth the 175pts it costs.

Hero: Beastmaster. Cheap, characterfull and enables you to take a really good flying monster that will stay normal even if the rider is killed. Unique ability.

-- Agreed, the ability to take a manticore in games under 2000pts is neat and sometimes very useful.

Lord: High Sorceress. The only lvl 3-4 magic user allowed to ride a competent monster into battle (apart from chaos) She is also better at casting than others and even has a Magic Lore unique to our race. She also has the ability of getting a fast flying steed to let her rain magic from everywhere on the table.

-- This is fun but not very effective. A manticore mounted sorc is really at odds with herself tactically. To get the most use out of the manticore it must be in combat, to get the most out of the sorc she must be out of combat. Many other armies can also mount their mage lords on pegasi or the equivelent (bretonnians, empire, high elves, wood elves, DoW, Chaos Dwarves, Chaos).

Lord: Highborn. We are one of the only four races able to take dragons, not only that but their breath weapons are better. Highborns are also superior fighters and leaders compared to most lords from , and with the Gauntlet of Power you are the enemy`s nightmare.

-- Yes, the dragon is a real nasty item. It is also considered by many to be unsportsmanlike to use a dragon on in any but the largest of battles. Actually, the black dragon's breath attack is weaker than most other dragons (i'd rather have my opponent fleeing rather than just unable to charge).

Hero: Noble. Where other Hero- levels are rather poor leaders and fighters, nobles are exellent. The units they lead are hard to break and gain a considerable advantage from their combat abilities. Also, druchii battle standards are top notch, you get to pick from increased CR, increased attack power, added charge range and even Unbreakable!

-- Compared to all non-elven commanders the noble has equal or worse combat ability and he costs more pts. I do agree that ld 9 on a hero is very nice, though.


Core: Warriors. Diciplined, skilled but fragile and weak. However, they add the ranks needed to win combats and are most commonly used as a part of an attack, not a unit that is designed to take the enemy down by itself. When equipped with RXB`s their killability increase considerably, making them one of the best missile troops in the game. They are characterfull because the druchii use tactics to overcome lack of brute force, and the warriors need to be a part of a good plan.

-- I disagree. Our overcosted spearmen are not a strength of the army. They will usually draw or lose combat to just about any other ranked infanty and still warriors cost more pts. Try running 20 warriors against 30 common goblins or clanrats. It's rather depressing. Also, rxb warriors while cool and unique rarely pay thier pts back (see the thread on this board). They are outshot 1 for 1 by almost every nonelf shooting unit out there, even the ones that cost less! Their versatility is unique and cool, just not terribly effective most times.

Core: Dark Riders. One of the best flank attack unit in the game (only barely below the Pistoliers or Goblin Wolf Riders...) that in itself makes it a powerfull unit. They are also strong in the fluff and fits the druchii style of attack.

-- Yes, they are quite good and one of the few units that is worth every point in the dark elf list.

Special: CO chariots and Knights: Powerfull but tricky to use, which is in character. Everybody think that Chosen Chaos Knights are the best, right? Look at the CoK statline first round of combat with a Hydra Banner BSB: WS5 S5 A 2 I 5 Looks terribly alot like the chosen knights attacks, but these are not infinite so they need to win the combat and break the enemy. Once more it`s characterfull, the druchii strike hard but are not well suited for protracted combat.

-- First, they are not "tricky" to use. They are simply unreliable. No amount of planning or tactics will allow you to avoid rolling an 11 on the critical turn. I agree, CoK's w/ the hydra banner can pack a serious punch but if you are going to compare them to chosen chaos knights you should look at pts cost too. A unit of 5 CoK's w/ musician, champ, and ASB w/ hydra banners costs 383 pts. A unit of 6 chosen chaos knights w/ full command costs 320 pts. Now consider that the knights do not have to charge to get str 5 and still attack at str 5 after the first round of combat. The Chosen are t4, have a 1+ save, and do not suffer from stupidity. If you want them to cause fear just give them the mark of nurgle and they will still be cheaper than the CoKs!

Special: Harpies. Harpies are cheap, flying units that are able to take care of warmachine crew. What more do you need to know? They also fit well with the beast theme of the army.

-- Harpies are nice and can be very effective but like most dark elf units suffer from a potentially disastrous flaw.

Special: Shades. Scouts with a bite! Very powerfull shooting from a small unit that is able to scout. Can be a great pain to the enemy if used corretly.

-- They are very expensive scouts and I do not see where the bite comes in. They are easily outdone by gutterrunners in cc and their shooting is about equivilent to a bow in most circumstances.

Special: Witch Elves. Fragile but packs a tremendous punch. Perhaps the very embodiment of druchii.

-- Yes, but with a potentially disastrous flaw. Frenzy is quite a double edged sword when you face a clever opponent.

Rare: Black Guard. Strong, sinister and hatefull troops that are characterfull and effective.

-- Characterful, yes. Effective? For their cost I would argue, no. They are good tarpits but are EXTREMELY expensive. They will also be hard pressed to break most enemy regiments on their own.

Reaper bolt thrower: Horrifying and reliable attilery. Envied by all other races.

-- Yes, these are quite decent.

War Hydra: Powerfull but hard to use. Fits with the theme.

-- The hydra is outclassed, pt for pt, by every other unridden monster I can think of. And beasts are supposed to be one of the DE strengths!

So, that was my tiny counterweight against all the negativity, but nevertheless... The druchii is a tacticians army, if somebody say that they consistently win with chaos or skaven, people goes "yeah, why am I not surprised" but if you boast the same with Dark Elves people will definetly be impressed! And to me, that is justification in itself.

-- Yeah, it just sucks when you come up against a Dark Elf player using Chaos army, no?

[Darius foulblood]

Just tried to make the Dark Elf list look brighter (as bizarre as it may sound) by pointing out their strenghts. All the disadvantages you describe are overcomeable with a bit of good ol` cunning. We have all gone statblinded and said that yes, point by point and statline by statline the Dark Elves are underpowered , but I think it is time to move on now, at least until the promised fix-up comes along. Instead of seeing the limitations of a unit, try to see its potential.

Take the assasin as an example. For a hero level character he is expensive, but he is vastly superior to most other hero-levels and he has the ability to hide in units. One can easily say that you can get a better unit/lord from other lists but thats not the point. The assasin`s points value is not based on what he kills, but the fear and hesitation he causes to your opponent. Suddenly, a unit your enemy thought was easy to break can with a blink of an eye turn into a real monster to combat. Unexpectedly, his unit he thought was safe could get broken and thus ruining his battleplan. With an assasin up your sleeve, you can quickly turn the tables on an unsuspecting opponent, justifying the point cost. Note that you must be skilled to take advantage of the element of surprise, otherwise it may seem a waste of points to have one.


Of course spearelves are expensive for their stats, but you have got to look beyond that! If dark elves had too powerfull infantry in addition to the exellent fast cavalry, it would be rather unbalanced. Executioners, Witch Elves and the monsters in the list are more or less designed to hit the flanks of enemy engaged with the warriors. They are the cheapest in the list, but often the most vital if used correctly. Other tactics are of course viable, but it is my belief that spearwarriors and corsairs are supposed to be the anvil that keeps the enemy in position so the hammer units like Witch Elves and Executioners can attack them. They are the cheapest way to get rank bonuses wich the other druchii units commonly lack.

As for the Cold One knights and their stupidity, its rather hard to fail a Ld 9 or 10 test, but I agree its rather silly to have your elite cavalry mounts stopping to sniff each others rear instead of what should be a terrifying charge. Until relief arrives, all I can say is that although unreliable, its the most hard-hitting cavalry (better than Chosens of Chaos due to the Cold One mounts!!!) in the game if equipped properly. But they WILL die and won`t kill much more if forced to fight extended combats.


The "flaws" of harpies (low leadership, I assume) is not that hard to come by. Just make sure they won`t have to test before they have killed their target(s). Witch Elves, executioners and black guard are also constantly badgered for their low armour save. I think the people who thinks so has misunderstood their use. Spearelves and Corsairs are meant to provide the numbers for combat while the other units provide flank attacks and killing power. Thats just my simple view on things. The moment you rely on a large regiment of expensive (more than 10pts) toughness 3 armour save less than 4+ you are allready in trouble. Those units are meant to deal out punishment, not recieve it. Exploit their speed.


As for the shades bite, their RXB`s can ruin someones day at short range, and if there are alot of terrain (say a steep hill or building) that will enable you to shoot freely without being charged immediatly.

Gotta go...

[Dragnipur]

And it could all get worse. There are still a few army books to be brought out, and they could all be awesome. My guess is they probably WILL be awesome. This is based on my personal theory that it is always bad to be the first, as they cannot compare you to anything then. As the first, you will either be overpowered, or underpowered. The books to come will all be matched against the already excisiting ones, and will therefore not be worse, and maybe even better. I for one was shocked when i read the skaven book, and even more shocked when i saw the beastman hordes. If this is the way it is going to go, shock after shock, i will fail my terror test for the wood elf book (my most regular opponent). We will see...

[Langmann]

--Not to parrot FallenAngel's response, but I also feel that you have slightly overstated the Druchii strengths.


Core: Warriors. Diciplined, skilled but fragile and weak. However, they add the ranks needed to win combats and are most commonly used as a part of an attack, not a unit that is designed to take the enemy down by itself. When equipped with RXB`s their killability increase considerably, making them one of the best missile troops in the game. They are characterfull because the druchii use tactics to overcome lack of brute force, and the warriors need to be a part of a good plan.

-- I disagree. Our overcosted spearmen are not a strength of the army. They will usually draw or lose combat to just about any other ranked infanty and still warriors cost more pts. Try running 20 warriors against 30 common goblins or clanrats. It's rather depressing. Also, rxb warriors while cool and unique rarely pay thier pts back (see the thread on this board). They are outshot 1 for 1 by almost every nonelf shooting unit out there, even the ones that cost less! Their versatility is unique and cool, just not terribly effective most times.

The only advantage to gobbos have is if they have a better frontage (7 vs 5). Which they usually will if they as they're cheap and they outnumber us. Then they are still beatable by us though its very close. If you can charge them then you can maximize your frontage but minimize theirs to only 6 vs your usual 5. In that case we can kill more of them still. Be careful you don't understate our troops too much, though the rest of your points are good and your point here is taken, though I wouldn't use goblins to make it.
And of course corsairs are much better here. Even with a frontage of 7 vs your 5, the cosairs destroy them.

I think your best point is that if we charge them with spears, we can if minimizing frontage to 6 vs 5, kill enough of them to outnumber what they kill of us. However due to combat resolution outnumbering bonus, that bonus is nulled and the spears will eventually lose ranks. Thus we lose.

[Knightsaber]

Just tried to make the Dark Elf list look brighter (as bizarre as it may sound) by pointing out their strenghts. All the disadvantages you describe are overcomeable with a bit of good ol` cunning. We have all gone statblinded and said that yes, point by point and statline by statline the Dark Elves are underpowered , but I think it is time to move on now, at least until the promised fix-up comes along. Instead of seeing the limitations of a unit, try to see its potential.

I seem to have misunderstood the intention of you original post. It seemed that you were intending to point out the unique strengths of the dark elf list, however many of the things you mentioned do not stand out as strengths but rather weaknesses. If instead, you were merely pointing out the positive aspects of each unit (even those that are not very good overall), then that is something different entirely. I completely agree that it is good to see the positive among the negative.

That said, I think that it is also important to have a realistic understanding of the relative power and effectiveness of each unit. I stand by my assessment of your suggestions, though I applaud your efforts to take a possitive look at the list.

All the disadvantages you describe are overcomeable with a bit of good ol` cunning.

Hehe, this is simply untrue. Too many people think that battle happen in a void or under ideal circumstances. Sometimes your opponent responds to your moves . Sometimes, there are no conveniently placed forests behind which to leap frog your harpies.

Of course spearelves are expensive for their stats, but you have got to look beyond that! If dark elves had too powerfull infantry in addition to the exellent fast cavalry, it would be rather unbalanced./quote]

My point exactly. Dark elf core infantry is NOT a strength of the list. They often necessary to win but they are nothing special. Furthermore, fairly costed does not equate to "too powerful". I would also argue that there are at least a couple armies out there with good (cost effective) infantry and great fast cav, take a look at empire (swordsmen and pistoliers) or DoW ( basic pike and the dirt cheap "light cavalry").

As for the Cold One knights and their stupidity, its rather hard to fail a Ld 9 or 10 test, but I agree its rather silly to have your elite cavalry mounts stopping to sniff each others rear instead of what should be a terrifying charge.

Yup, my point was in relation to your comment that the are "tricky to use".

Until relief arrives, all I can say is that although unreliable, its the most hard-hitting cavalry (better than Chosens of Chaos due to the Cold One mounts!!!) in the game if equipped properly. But they WILL die and won`t kill much more if forced to fight extended combats.

Actually, Chosen Knights of Chaos have str4 mounts too and with the mark of nurgle can even cause fear. CoK certainly can be nasty on the charge but you are mistaken if you think that they hit harder than Chosen.

The "flaws" of harpies (low leadership, I assume) is not that hard to come by. Just make sure they won`t have to test before they have killed their target(s).

Yup, harpies are very handy. They can be a great asset in a dark elf army. I was pointing out (unnecessarily) that they do suffer from a disadvantage not shared by say, chaos furies. In my own defense, it is much easier said than done to "Just make sure they won`t have to test before they have killed their target(s)". Sometimes there are flying terror causers, sometimes your opponent has modile missile troops, sometimes there just isn't enough terrain to avoid fire. I am not saying that Harpies are bad, just not quite as good as you seem to be making them out to be.

As for the shades bite, their RXB`s can ruin someones day at short range, and if there are alot of terrain (say a steep hill or building) that will enable you to shoot freely without being charged immediatly.

Yeah, shades can be very handy. I only meant that I do not see how they have any more bite than most other skirmishers (say skinks, gutter runners, or even shadow warriors).

Finally, I believe the reason people badger blackguard about their save is because when faced with shooting these 16pt models drop as easily as 5pt clan rats. On the other hand, I think that executioners and witch elves do serve very valuable shock roles. I think that frenzy on witch elves is a huge disadvantage that is difficult to mitigate but I cannot argue with thier killing power. Exectioners suffer in drawn out combats but at 11pts I love the punch they can pack. I think that the armor saves of witch elves and executioners are fine for their respective point costs. Blackguard, however, are just too expensive and do not perform a clear role. They do not hit hard enough to be effective shock troops and they are too expense (for me) and frail to be used as a tarpit. Since they are stubborn they seem to be meant for protracted fights, but after the first round when they no longer benefit from hatred they simply cannot kill enough to avoid losing combats do to attacks back and outnumbering. It is very depressing when you are losing combats with your 300+ point unit of black guard to a 100ish point unit of common goblins. Finally, remember that since blackguard are stubborn they are not allowed to declare a flee charge reaction. This GREATLY reduces their tactical flexibility.

Anyway, thanks for the insights. It's nice to see that not everyone has become cynical about the uses and power of the dark elf army. And, for the record, I do agree that there are many underrated units in the list and that the army is not completely beyond hope!

[Knightsaber]

Langman, consider this example:

20 corsairs (5x4) charge 30 goblins (5x6). Both units have full command.

Turn 1: Corsairs attack first with 11 attacks.
2/3 hit, so 7 hits.
1/2 wound, so 3.5 wound.
Gobos save 1/2 (hw+sheild), so 1.75 dead.

Goblins strike back with 4 attacks.
1/2 hit, so 2 hits.
1/2 wound, so 1 wound.
1/3 saves, so .66 die.
Turn 1 Combat Resolution:
Corsairs: 3 ranks + Standard + 1.75 kills = about 5.75
Goblins: 3 ranks + Standard + .66 kills +outnumber = about 5.66

So... 5.75 to 5.66 looks like a draw to me, and as you point out in a couple rounds the goblins will still have full rank bonus but the corsairs won't...

In my mind, this is simply unacceptable since the corsairs cost over twice what the goblins do! Certainly, the corsairs have better movement and leadership, but if you did the exact same combat against clan rats the result would be the same! And in that case both units would have the same ld, the same mv, and the rats still cost less.

[Crimsondeath]

Yeah I did some quick goat thinking in my head later because I didn't feel that the dwarf thing was right and realized that I forgot to add the bonus for hand weapon with shield. It changes it, your statistics are what I got. And they are cheaper, I wonder if dwarves aren't underpriced a tad, like by 1 point? I admit I am wrong there, sorry.

Its a good thing I never charge anything head on and hope to win without our core units backed up eh?

Ah, no worries - I thought I must have been going mad when I read your post earlier And then I thought I must have been doing something totally wrong, so I rechecked all my calculations

I have a full matrix listing our units against just about everything else - it is quite sobering to read through and has given me a good appreciation of our (lack of) 1-on-1 combat abilities - so yeah I do the same thing that you do - never expect to win a fair combat

And no, I don't see this as some kind of peverse 'strength' of the DE list!

[Crimsondeath]

But...DE do have a niche: Stupidity. We have the greatest possible number of units/army (since our list is so small) that can be affected by stupidity: Highborn on CO, High Sorceress on CO, Noble on CO, Sorceress on CO, Beastmaster on CO, CO Knights, and CO Chariot! A quick calculation shows that, with a little effort, 7 of our 19 possible units (including characters) can have to make that simple little check every turn! I challenge any other army list to be that stupid!!!

Thankyou so much for this bit of lighthearted silliness

Much appreciated!

[Linda lobsta defenda]

knightsaber: you forgot that the gobbos has to take a fear test. it has to be calculated.

trust me i play night gobbos as well. and my gobbos wont beat elves in CC. the elven elite regiments i hit on 5+! and with only 5+ save ....

also comparing 2 regiments from different armies has been stated time and time again that that means nothing. by doing that you ignore several stats (movement anyone?) as well as army tactics. do the same with witch elves vs night gobbos and you see that witch elves should cost more, compare witch elves against chaos knights and they should cost less!

[Langmann]

Langman, consider this example:

20 corsairs (5x4) charge 30 goblins (5x6). Both units have full command.

Turn 1: Corsairs attack first with 11 attacks.
2/3 hit, so 7 hits.
1/2 wound, so 3.5 wound.
Gobos save 1/2 (hw+sheild), so 1.75 dead.

Goblins strike back with 4 attacks.
1/2 hit, so 2 hits.
1/2 wound, so 1 wound.
1/3 saves, so .66 die.
Turn 1 Combat Resolution:
Corsairs: 3 ranks + Standard + 1.75 kills = about 5.75
Goblins: 3 ranks + Standard + .66 kills +outnumber = about 5.66

So... 5.75 to 5.66 looks like a draw to me, and as you point out in a couple rounds the goblins will still have full rank bonus but the corsairs won't...

In my mind, this is simply unacceptable since the corsairs cost over twice what the goblins do! Certainly, the corsairs have better movement and leadership, but if you did the exact same combat against clan rats the result would be the same! And in that case both units would have the same ld, the same mv, and the rats still cost less.

And thats my point I was trying to make!

And this is why I think that the WS chart should get to a 5 to hit a little faster, and 2 to hit, not much but a little so that the points balance out... Plus that makes it reasonable for why the fluff says goblins are scared of elfs they don't outnumber 2-1... Its too late for that now, however.

This is the reason I like gobbos. Arm them with spear, leather armour and shield and they are quite surviveable. I place them beside a unit of black orcs and they stick forever due to the general's leadership of 9. You can overwhelm some guy and if the gobbos get shot while getting there, who cares! Then the black orcs come flanking in and gooooodbye. It also makes it hard for the enemy to flank since you have so many units on the board. They have weaknesses, any cavalry charge and they are usually dead. Usually....

[Crimsondeath]

Anyway, thanks for the insights. It's nice to see that not everyone has become cynical about the uses and power of the dark elf army. And, for the record, I do agree that there are many underrated units in the list and that the army is not completely beyond hope!

It seems that I'm in near 100% agreement with what you're saying KnightSaber.

Unfortunately, I'm one of the poor souls who became disillusioned and cynical 5 minutes after picking up the DE list. I can still remember it quite vividly really - there I was standing in the GW shop and looking through the list - when I saw that Executioners had lost Heavy Armour and S4, and COK's lost a point of M and 1 attack my heart really sank And where was the City Guard?

So what do you currently think are the underrated units in the Dark Elf army? And the best ways to use them of course?

[Crimsondeath]

also comparing 2 regiments from different armies has been stated time and time again that that means nothing. by doing that you ignore several stats (movement anyone?) as well as army tactics. do the same with witch elves vs night gobbos and you see that witch elves should cost more, compare witch elves against chaos knights and they should cost less!

I know it's been stated time and time again, but I still don't see why it is correct?

Maybe it my highly analytical nature, but I think that there should be a level of consistency across the board in relation to points costs of individual units.

The argument used to be: "Well, Chaos warriors are cheap because they don't have any shooting, so they have to be good in HtH"

The other side of this argument was then: "Of course Elves are expensive, you have access to shooting so you have to take this into account"

To this I say Baloney!

If Unit A in a list is more expensive because Unit B is also in the list, then what happens if you make an army with no Unit B's? All of a sudden Unit A is overpriced! Units should be comparable from army to army, irrespective of the rest of the army. The only exception to this is when there is a special rule that affects all/some units in an army (like VC), but even this can be taken into account.

In the example that you give - of course Witch Elves (13 points) should cream Gobbos (3 points)! Just as they will lose horribly to Chosen Chaos Knights (45 points). But comparing Witch Elves to Swordmasters (also a Special choice and 13 points) is a valid comparison. But just fighting them against each other won't prove anything - you need to pit them both against a variety of opponents to see how they hold up.

[Dragnipur]

Assasins are nice, fluffly, deadly, and cost way too much. 170-180 points for 1 character, which does not even have armour? There are other army's out there where you can get 3 reasonably equipped heroes for this amount of points (well, 2 certainly). the only thing you can hope for with an assasin is that the killing blow you gave him did its work and chopped up that hero or lord. I do not see him as a strenght to the DE-list. One of the few characterfull things we have? yes. Can you make fantastic fluff around this figure? yes. Worth his points? with a lot of luck, sometimes...

[Knightsaber]

Linda-

You are correct about the fear test. However, the same example is possible using Hobgoblins, Clanrats, Ork boys, and any number of other cheap units. Also, it is quite possible that the gobbos would even pass the check (with a general nearby)!

Also, my point was not to compare the two units but to point out that at 10pts per model corsairs should massacre 3-5pt models in hth, but they don't! I truly believe that elf infantry in general is overcosted and perhaps that the hw/shield rule makes certain models undercosted.

With regard to elite regiments, well of course the goblins lose! They bloody well should, they're less than a fourth the cost of a sword master or witch elf!! I was speaking of our core regiments which only cost at least 3 times what a common goblin costs.

Finally, I agree with crimson death that the "you cannot compare units from different armies" arguement is flawed. Certainly, it is a factor but not nearly as large a factor as many would have you believe.

[Langmann]

Linda-

You are correct about the fear test. However, the same example is possible using Hobgoblins, Clanrats, Ork boys, and any number of other cheap units. Also, it is quite possible that the gobbos would even pass the check (with a general nearby)!

Also, my point was not to compare the two units but to point out that at 10pts per model corsairs should massacre 3-5pt models in hth, but they don't! I truly believe that elf infantry in general is overcosted and perhaps that the hw/shield rule makes certain models undercosted.

The dark elves massacre them in a one to one battle same frontage in the long run. Its when the frontage projects to 6 or 7 that it becomes tied up and my points on survivability become valid. I always try to minimize their frontage when I charge them to 6. And it happens to be better in the long run to equip the gobbos with spears and shield instead of handweapon and shield. Goblins are weeds and its better to have them in units of 40. A unit of 28 with 7x4 gets toasted by DE unit of spears in 5x4 formation in the long run. The first round not, but in subsequent rounds when the spears kick in they do. Corsairs kick them. A unit of 40 will cost roughly the same as the unit of 20 corsairs and are more surviveable to artillery.

While I think they are slightly underpriced because they benefit as an aside from outnumber and rank maintainablity, you need lots in order to have them effective, units of 28 are not good enough. Thus they cost overall roughly the same.

Linda help back me up here, we both play gobbos.

[Langmann]

Sorry for the two in a row, but I want to make my points clear.

One on one a unit of 20 corsairs will almost always win combat and 50% of the time rundown a goblin unit of 20 armed with spears, shield, light armour. That's approximately 100 points gained for the potential death of a corsair. Ok its fair and balanced in that respect.

Heres where it falls apart for us against hordes. I can buy a unit of 40 gobs for roughly the same price as a unit of 20 corsairs. Right away I get the benefit of three things that are NOT PAID FOR. CR +1 outnumber (how many people have units of 40?), frontage, and another thing not measured in points, survivability. That means if a cannon or shooting or catapult plops on my gobbos, I'm just going to laugh it off when some die, since I'll still maintain rank bonus and chances are the outnumber. If that lands on my corsairs I'm probably going to lose 1 CR of rank bonus, plus more expensive units.

Thus a unit of 40 goblins can generally take out a unit of corsairs in the long run because I can wear their rank bonus' down, even if I lose more gobblins (which I will).

GW has recognized this and had thus given gobbos low leadership so they run easily. (Same for most hordes). This works fine if I take an entire army of gobbos where my lord gets a leadership of 7. People can take them on one on one with elves and mostly always win.

However GW failed to consider, IMHO, an easy way out of this for the horde player here since all I do is put a black orc warlord in the center of a mass of 40 goblins on one side and 40 goblins on the other. Now my goblins have leadership 9 and thus mostly stick around. This is what skaven players also do.

So we get movement and initiative. Movement is nice but its hard to maneuver around me when I play goblins. I know what you need to do to win with DE, and I protect my flanks. Against some hordes its almost impossible sine they can cover a 6'x4' board.

Now I usually win against O/G because I can maneuver and outartillery/shoot them, and puncture goblin hordes with expensive special units. Skaven seem a different story but I have only played them once and thus am not an expert.

Anyhow this is why I think goblins should be WS1 (as well as some skaven) since then they'd hit WS4 on a 5+, balancing out the benefits goblins get for survivability, low points costs, and outnumber CR bonuses.

What do you say?

[Lord draekor]

"Unfortunately, I'm one of the poor souls who became disillusioned and cynical 5 minutes after picking up the DE list. I can still remember it quite vividly really - there I was standing in the GW shop and looking through the list - when I saw that Executioners had lost Heavy Armour and S4, and COK's lost a point of M and 1 attack my heart really sank And where was the City Guard

Sometimes I forget I'm not the only one to have been slapped in the face by the Dark Elf army book within minutes of looking at it. It didn't help that players of other armies saw how less than attractive the DE list was almost immediately and laughed. Years of waiting for "our turn" and this is what we get...

The community on this site makes up for the failure of the list so much I'm almost happy however.

[Furion]

[quote="CrimsonDeathWS and I are pretty soft stats really.

Our M rate is now looking decidedly average! (cf Skaven, Beasts of Chaos)

And our LD is _good_, but hardly anything special (better than most O&G, some empire, effectively equivalent to Skaven, less than Dwarfs, Lizardmen & VC, and about the same as Chaos)[/color]

i personally think i is an important stat specially with fragile troops. that means if we by some reason do not break the enemy on the charge we can at least make sure to suffer few attacks in the next round. for dwarves i isn't important as they can take a few blows. but to us it is important.

M of 5 being "average"?? exuse me? just because skaven and beastmen have the same move as our elves we are suddenly average? what about the dwarves with 3, empire, brettonia, undead, dogs of war etc with 4. oh wait the maximum that infantry have across an army is now average? please explain that. i am sure my students will be happy when I say "i am sorry there were 2 people that aced the test so they are now just average, the rest of you are under average"

===>How about the other two Elf armies? It becomes average when 4 other races can have the same thing. He's saying M5 isn't this jewel that makes Dark Elves so unique. Not sure how you missed that.

ws IS important. hitting the enemy on 3+ is A LOT better then 4+.

"and our LD is _good_, but hardly anything special" ahh i think you hti the head on the nail... you are not content with "good" you want "best". and that is where it all falls apart for you.

===>Again, he's saying its nothing great. He never stated he wanted the best of everything, simply having some unique qualities isn't asking for the world.

sorry if the next sentence is harsh but read it with tounge in cheek:

your whole post comes off as a whiny kid going "mommy i want the best army at everything with no flaws. noone is to have anything better"

yes i know that is not what you are saying, but I do feel that if you sit down and think you will see that there is something about it. you don't seem content with "good" LD. if you are not pleased with core with LD 8 and lords with 10 then there is something wrong.

===>Its not so good and wonderful when more than a few others have it too. It looses its originality and doesn't become too great. You can't honestly tell me you play the list and feel its up to par with Skaven and not have your nose grow like Pinochio.

btw chaos has worse LD then us.[/quote]

===>Because they don't have LD10 lords? Oh damn! I suppose being immune to psychology(as most are going to be) just isn't good enough. Wow, we're just so selfish aren't we?

[Knightsaber]

Langman-

I think we are misunderstanding each other. Let me attempt to clarify my view. If one unit of 20 corsairs charges one unit of 30 goblins with hand weapon, shield, and light armor the corsairs will, on average, draw combat for a few rounds and then start loosing, assuming the goblins do not suffer from fear. The goblins do not need a wide frontage for this. 5 wide with a champion is more than enough. They do not need spears. The 4+ save for 30 less points is just as good. This was shown in one of my earlier posts:

Turn 1: Corsairs attack first with 11 attacks.
2/3 hit, so 7 hits.
1/2 wound, so 3.5 wound.
Gobos save 1/2 (hw+sheild), so 1.75 dead.

Goblins strike back with 4 attacks.
1/2 hit, so 2 hits.
1/2 wound, so 1 wound.
1/3 saves, so .66 die.
Turn 1 Combat Resolution:
Corsairs: 3 ranks + Standard + 1.75 kills = about 5.75
Goblins: 3 ranks + Standard + .66 kills +outnumber = about 5.66

So... 5.75 to 5.66 looks like a draw to me, and as you point out in a couple rounds the goblins will still have full rank bonus but the corsairs won't...

I do not understand how you can think that 20 corsairs can "toast" 28 goblins with spears. Let's see what will happen most times when the corsairs charge:

Corsairs attack- 11 attacks (5 wide w/ 2 hand weapons plus champion)
2/3 hits, 7 hits
1/2 wounds, 3.5 wounds
1/3 saves, about 2 kills

Goblins attack- 13 attacks (2 ranks of 7 w/ champion, minus 2 kills)
1/2 hits, 6.5 hits
1/2 wounds, 3.25 wounds
1/3 saves, about 2 kills

Combat res-
Corsairs: 3 ranks + standard + 2 kills = 6
Goblins: 3 ranks + standard + 2 kills + outnumber = 7

Huh, looks like, on average, the corsairs will lose even on the first round. And it's all down hill from there, since they have already lost their rank bonus, but the gobbos haven't.


If the goblins have a wider frontage or greater numbers than this combat is even more in their favor. In the example above, 225pts of corsairs will eventually lose to 110pts of goblins. If you increase the goblins to 40 just to avoid fear then it is still 140pts beating 225pts.

I completely agree that if the Corsairs fight an equal number of goblins (or hobgoblins or clan rats) they will win most of the time. However, this is, as you say, almost never the case. Once outnumber is factored in they draw combats, and then when the Corsair's rank bonus wears out they begin to lose.

As for the best way to equip goblins try units with hand weapon and shield with a frontage of 4. If you are using units of 40 you will be saving 40pts per unit. This will let you get more goblin UNITS or more units of wolfriders. Do not try to win fights. Just flee if charged, then counter charge in the flank. Or if you are fighting elves or humans, you can just hold, draw combat, then charge into the flank on your next turn. I would prefer units of 30, 4 wide and 8 deep. If you use shooting to knock off the 2 models from the 5x4 units then you don't even need to worry about flanking or frontage. Your 102pt hand weapon gobbos will just beat them in a straight up fight. Do the math or run several practice fights. It's sad but true.

[Shockwave]

Too true knightsaber.

Alot of people seem to forget that we can't win protracted combats because we don't have the numbers.

We needed to win by the end of the second round, idealy the first. But the only way we can do this is by getting the additional combat res points from flank charges. This has been stated before.

We can't go toe to toe with cheaper(horde) armies it's been proven 2-3 times already on this post.

Vs Elite Armies such as chaos we we fare better though they are that much better than us.
yes true they cos more, so we get to out number them 2-1 great, considering we have a miniscule chance of killing one in hth the +1 combat res and rank bonus just ends up teing them up for a few turns (something to do with toughness 4 and a 2+ armour save).

And DON'T say that ting them up is a good thing, thinking we then get to bring in our dark riders for the flank charge. Because thats more pts which is the whole point of this thread.

Which is the fact that we needed to use alot more pts and units to bring down other armys

The only army at the moment that is in the same boat as us is the Helfs and even they are already in the life boats living this sinking ship.

The only armys is iv'e won against are Helfs and Delfs to all others iv'e lost. Now i'll admit i'm not the worlds greatest Delf general (Thats Dark Alliance's title). but still it shows somthing.

But our supposed Eliteness isn't.
If we were just a single point cheaper that might just readdress the balance in the force.

But this is gonna fall on deaf ears because you all seemed to ignre the points i made in the last one.