Druchii fluff aggression

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Linda lobsta defenda
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

as it is clear that i am alone in my view here i will wash my hands with the whole mess.

so please stop posting to me
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Post by Whaledawg »

Your not alone. I dont beleive that DE are underpowered at all. We may have fewer choices, but any good general will stack up fine against just about any other army. Sure, the hordes are difficult for us but guess what? We have 3 spells that chew hordes up. 1 that sucks half
of most every unit into a dark dimension and makes them take a panic test. 1 that will kill
half the guys in one of those giant units and doubles our sorceress'ese's'es?????(u
know what I mean) wounds, and 1 that can stop a unit from moving thus forcing them to
expose a flank or sit still for a turn. What more do u want? And while WS is a soft stat
LD and M and I isnt. Striking first all the time is a HUGE bonus. No, your not gonna
kill them all b4 they hit back but they will have 2 less attacks or so and that allows u to
hold on while flankers come in or whatever else your plan is.

The point is not too whine so damn much ppl!!!!! yeah, I read the skaven book. Yeah, they
have a better list than us. So what, their RATS!! No amount of warp cannons is gonna make them any less ratlike. We have strenghts and weaknesses, get used to it. We will never, I mean
never, under 6th edition rules have guys with T4. Get over it allready. Learn how to use what u have and stop worrying about what u dont. There will allways be omisions, there will allways be idiosyncrasies. There are alot of things I dont like about the list but I wouldn't sit here and list how deficient Druchii are for pages upon pages.

This is not an indictment, but if u dont like DE then dont play DE. Its not for everyone. Go play chaos, empire or even skaven if you want a powerful army(but dont play WE, man those guys r gay) Find an army u like instead of complaining over and over again about DE.

DE rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Lord uramael »

in answer to the idea of minimising the frontage: it's not possible. You have to engage the most enemy models possible and remember they can fight if corners touch...

-Linda:

Your views are appreciated just as everyone's, rest assured.

-Whaledawg:

while i agree that this thread obviously lead (and it was intentional i appologise) to people voicing out their problems with the list, i believe what we do here is discussing not complaining. If people put 4 pages on a topic, perhaps it does show an interest from them. This thread is about fluff and it's reflection in the list :) not "we want T4" as you are implying. The goal of the thread is to pinpoint the sore spots why people are uhappy/mad/whatever and i tought it could be related to the fluff.

Also, most DE players who comes here on the boards are certainly fans of dark elves, advising us to play another army is sadly not helping in any way...they are people who bought a DE army just like you. If you happen to have insights that would help us, please share them.
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while it's obvious our units aren't the "Do-everything" type of troops, some people mentioned that we have higher M/WS/BS/I/LD than most. Others have replied that those particular statistics were of insignificant in comparison to S/T, armor save and point cost. This leads me to wonder how are we considered by other players:

What do you think other opponents "feel" when they learn they will play against you or a Druchii?

While i played lizardman (before being enligthened (or flashed!) by the great Morathi ;) )
I used to completely underestimate the dark elves. Most of my opponents think that "They have awesome models, but are not match in battle" or "one of the hardest army to master and win with" (this was heard also with Dark Eldar btw)
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Post by Quasekomiki »

My regular opponents rightfully fear the coming of my Dark Elves :twisted: !!!
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Linda lobsta defenda
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

Lord Uramael wrote:in answer to the idea of minimising the frontage: it's not possible. You have to engage the most enemy models possible and remember they can fight if corners touch...


not so. the charger has to maximise his troops not the enemy (page 52 under maneouvering during a charge and it is first in the lis)
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

whaledawg wrote:This is not an indictment, but if u dont like DE then dont play DE. Its not for everyone. Go play chaos, empire or even skaven if you want a powerful army(but dont play WE, man those guys r gay) Find an army u like instead of complaining over and over again about DE.


I may sound overly harsh here but why the frig would anyone frequent this site if they didn't like Dark Elves??

Many, MANY people feel our list is below average, and I do not think that this equates to us crying about not having T4. We just want to be on par with other armies. Currently, we are slightly below average.
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Post by Dekhalan »

whaledawg wrote:This is not an indictment, but if u dont like DE then dont play DE. Its not for everyone. Go play chaos, empire or even skaven if you want a powerful army(but dont play WE, man those guys r gay) Find an army u like instead of complaining over and over again about DE.


We don't dislike the Dark Elves, far from it, we love them and hate how they don't match our expectations or do not hold their own against other races. In this thread we are discussing flaws in the list in comparison to fluff and other armies, not demanding T4 troops. In fact I challange you to find a post in this thread which demands the Dark Elves be given T4.
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Post by Darius foulblood »

My opinion is that a skilled general can win with any kind of army against any kind of opponent. That means if you stay true to the fluff and practice alot, you will eventually have just as good a chance at winning as any chaos or skaven powergamer. If you don`t belive that, you might as well stop playing, because then its the army lists that decide the outcome and not the players.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Darius Foulblood wrote:My opinion is that a skilled general can win with any kind of army against any kind of opponent. That means if you stay true to the fluff and practice alot, you will eventually have just as good a chance at winning as any chaos or skaven powergamer. If you don`t belive that, you might as well stop playing, because then its the army lists that decide the outcome and not the players.


True, but the argument is that that same skilled general will be able to perform better with an army like Skaven.
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Post by Langmann »

KnightSaber wrote:I do not understand how you can think that 20 corsairs can "toast" 28 goblins with spears. Let's see what will happen most times when the corsairs charge:

Corsairs attack- 11 attacks (5 wide w/ 2 hand weapons plus champion)
2/3 hits, 7 hits
1/2 wounds, 3.5 wounds
1/3 saves, about 2 kills

Goblins attack- 13 attacks (2 ranks of 7 w/ champion, minus 2 kills)
1/2 hits, 6.5 hits
1/2 wounds, 3.25 wounds
1/3 saves, about 2 kills

Combat res-
Corsairs: 3 ranks + standard + 2 kills = 6
Goblins: 3 ranks + standard + 2 kills + outnumber = 7

Huh, looks like, on average, the corsairs will lose even on the first round. And it's all down hill from there, since they have already lost their rank bonus, but the gobbos haven't.


If the goblins have a wider frontage or greater numbers than this combat is even more in their favor. In the example above, 225pts of corsairs will eventually lose to 110pts of goblins. If you increase the goblins to 40 just to avoid fear then it is still 140pts beating 225pts.

As for the best way to equip goblins try units with hand weapon and shield with a frontage of 4. If you are using units of 40 you will be saving 40pts per unit. This will let you get more goblin UNITS or more units of wolfriders. Do not try to win fights. Just flee if charged, then counter charge in the flank.


First of all, your stats are fine, but as you ably demonstrate that is why when you charge gobblins you minimize their frontage but maximize yours. So IOW you fight a 6 goblin front. The corsairs kill approx 2:1 with goblins with hand weapons and 1.6:1 with goblins with spears. Better for gobs to use spears IMO.

Secondly if you are a gobbo player you face fear, thus you may end up fleeing automatically if you bring 28 gobbos. Also 28 gobbos is easily whittled down by missile fire into nice packs of easily killed units of 20.

Third don't flee with gobblins when fighting other S3 T3, unless you are very sure its good strategy (and I'll agree there are times it is, but usually the other player will spot that you have something nice available to flank). You will rally half the time. Often better to stand and try and hold, killing as many elves as you can, while other units can flank up on your turn. Just remember that goblins lose combat often so have flankers also available behing. I almost never flee using goblins, because I don't care if they die, they are great roadblocks and have no effects on my orcs.

Now we agree, gobbos are conceivable better, but I think NOT for reasons of HtH. Here is why, and I repost this but please read it:

Sorry for the two in a row, but I want to make my points clear.

One on one a unit of 20 corsairs will almost always win combat and 50% of the time rundown a goblin unit of 20 armed with spears, shield, light armour. That's approximately 100 points gained for the potential death of a corsair. Ok its fair and balanced in that respect.

Heres where it falls apart for us against hordes. I can buy a unit of 40 gobs for roughly the same price as a unit of 20 corsairs. Right away I get the benefit of three things that are NOT PAID FOR. CR +1 outnumber (how many people have units of 40?), frontage, and another thing not measured in points, survivability. That means if a cannon or shooting or catapult plops on my gobbos, I'm just going to laugh it off when some die, since I'll still maintain rank bonus and chances are the outnumber. If that lands on my corsairs I'm probably going to lose 1 CR of rank bonus, plus more expensive units.

Thus a unit of 40 goblins can generally take out a unit of corsairs in the long run because I can wear their rank bonus' down, even if I lose more gobblins (which I will).

GW has recognized this and had thus given gobbos low leadership so they run easily. (Same for most hordes). This works fine if I take an entire army of gobbos where my lord gets a leadership of 7. People can take them on one on one with elves and mostly always win.

However GW failed to consider, IMHO, an easy way out of this for the horde player here since all I do is put a black orc warlord in the center of a mass of 40 goblins on one side and 40 goblins on the other. Now my goblins have leadership 9 and thus mostly stick around. This is what skaven players also do.

So we get movement and initiative. Movement is nice but its hard to maneuver around me when I play goblins. I know what you need to do to win with DE, and I protect my flanks. Against some hordes its almost impossible sine they can cover a 6'x4' board.

Now I usually win against O/G because I can maneuver and outartillery/shoot them, and puncture goblin hordes with expensive special units. Skaven seem a different story but I have only played them once and thus am not an expert.

Anyhow this is why I think goblins should be WS1 (as well as some skaven) since then they'd hit WS4 on a 5+, balancing out the benefits goblins get for survivability, low points costs, and outnumber CR bonuses.

What do you say?
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Post by Lord uramael »

It could be a good way, but simply make it as: whenever you have less WS you hit on 5+ ? goblins aren't the only unit we have trouble with point wise :).

As an O&G player, are the druchii players giving you a challenge?
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Post by Knightsaber »

I beleive we are in agreement on this. A couple of clarifications:

First of all, your stats are fine, but as you ably demonstrate that is why when you charge gobblins you minimize their frontage but maximize yours. So IOW you fight a 6 goblin front. The corsairs kill approx 2:1 with goblins with hand weapons and 1.6:1 with goblins with spears. Better for gobs to use spears IMO.


-- Yes, goblins with spears are are more effective in a fight. What I wonder is if it is worth the extra 1pt/model to get an extra .4 kill? In a unit of 40 that is 40 extra points which could buy you a Spear Chucka, or if you have 3 units of goblins you could trade in the spears on all of them for a 4th unit of goblins! In my mind it is well worth the very slight decrease combat resolution to field extra units. That was the point I was trying to make. This is true of nearly all units that have the option to puchase spears or just stick with hw/shield (if i could field dark elf warriors w. hw/shield for 8pts i most certainly would).

-- Regarding fleeing, common goblins are actually more likely to rally than not, as long as they have a musician (ld 7 or a 58% chance). With a goblin hero nearby they are rally on 8's, and it only get's better with orc heroes around. I agree that it isn't necessary vs most t3 armies but also remember that if you do break from combat any goblins nearby might panick and the enemy could pursue out of your flank trap.

-- I agree that horde armies become much stronger when their low leadership disadvantage is negated (black orcs, doombulls, skaven ranks, etc) but I also feel that due to their unit sizes they will rarely have to take leadership checks any way. Just flee from combats you can't win and flank, flank, flank.
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Post by Langmann »

Lord Uramael wrote:It could be a good way, but simply make it as: whenever you have less WS you hit on 5+ ? goblins aren't the only unit we have trouble with point wise :).


I think it would unbalance the game to have the WS chart the same as the Wound chart at this point in the game. However making goblins and some other horders WS1 I think would not unbalance it for me. As an O&G player it would actually make more sense to me.


Lord Uramael wrote:As an O&G player, are the druchii players giving you a challenge?


Actually I usually can beat druchii by fighting a war of attrition and preventing flankings by protecting flanks with strong orcs, and keeping gobbos in line with the general. Also if two of the catapults hit, the druchii are toast as its hard for them to fight on with units weakened right off the bat, before combats start. Druchii have ways of removing artillery, but I am knowledgeable of those ways.

However druchii can win, but I'd say its at least 3:2 odds for O&G.
Last edited by Langmann on Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Langmann »

KnightSaber wrote:I beleive we are in agreement on this. A couple of clarifications:

First of all, your stats are fine, but as you ably demonstrate that is why when you charge gobblins you minimize their frontage but maximize yours. So IOW you fight a 6 goblin front. The corsairs kill approx 2:1 with goblins with hand weapons and 1.6:1 with goblins with spears. Better for gobs to use spears IMO.


-- Yes, goblins with spears are are more effective in a fight. What I wonder is if it is worth the extra 1pt/model to get an extra .4 kill? In a unit of 40 that is 40 extra points which could buy you a Spear Chucka, or if you have 3 units of goblins you could trade in the spears on all of them for a 4th unit of goblins! In my mind it is well worth the very slight decrease combat resolution to field extra units. That was the point I was trying to make. This is true of nearly all units that have the option to puchase spears or just stick with hw/shield (if i could field dark elf warriors w. hw/shield for 8pts i most certainly would).

-- Regarding fleeing, common goblins are actually more likely to rally than not, as long as they have a musician (ld 7 or a 58% chance). With a goblin hero nearby they are rally on 8's, and it only get's better with orc heroes around. I agree that it isn't necessary vs most t3 armies but also remember that if you do break from combat any goblins nearby might panick and the enemy could pursue out of your flank trap.

-- I agree that horde armies become much stronger when their low leadership disadvantage is negated (black orcs, doombulls, skaven ranks, etc) but I also feel that due to their unit sizes they will rarely have to take leadership checks any way. Just flee from combats you can't win and flank, flank, flank.


Maybe its me but I find spears better for gobs, for two reasons, more often than not I can draw and have better chance of winning combat against a core druchii unit if he charges me. Also people are more reluctant to charge spears for a psychological reason of that handful of dice. I can usually cover a 6x4 board with units of O&G without removing the spears.

As to the units of 40, most DE and HE take units of 20 core. Fear is a terrible thing because if you lose combat, you autobreak unless you outnumber. This effects you quite a lot more than you may think.

I think you mean with general nearby gobs rally. Heros nearby have no effect, but I think you meant if they were with the gobbos (i never put em with gobbos because they can get overrun). Also if you never put two units of gobs side by side (as people with slaves have so ably demonstrated) the orcs ignore them if they flee. Its really pushing the rules of the game, but people do it... and as my last post points out, it makes hordes beardy when they have generals nearby. 58% chances of rallying isn't what I like.
Last edited by Langmann on Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by The word of pain »

First off, lets not degenerate into the quibble fights you get on the Warhammer boards, that's why I come here and not there!

I agree with you all. Crazy I know, I agree with Linda, fast and hard hittting armies are what Dark Elves are about. (Or Should be)

The problem is when we play against strong and Tough oppo's. (that's what the others are saying!

We just need to think of ways of overcoming the problem. Yes it would be great to jhave an update, but I'm pretty sure that, even if we do, it won't be massive changes! So we need to work on ways of combatting this. My view, is that, given pre warning of what army I'm facing (Just race, not actual army list) , I can put an army together that will stand a damn good chance of winning. Having to take a tournie army, where you know not what you face, is much harder. It's not impossible, but harder.

As far as the fast cav are concerned, Dark Riders are the best. Pistoliers are good, very good in fact (My other army is Empire and I have 2 units of 6, with boss/repeater pistol, very nasty on the charge!), but they are nowhere near as godd as Dark riders for all the other reasons Dark riders are good. (Tempting charges, running and rallying. Using standards to support chariot, hydra charges. (Ok, none of the in an empire army) Moving vast distances to stop marching. Shooting along way! and so on)

These are my humble views.... :oops:
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Post by Crimsondeath »

The Word of Pain wrote:Pistoliers are good, very good in fact (My other army is Empire and I have 2 units of 6, with boss/repeater pistol, very nasty on the charge!), but they are nowhere near as godd as Dark riders


Well first off, I thought I should point out that I am very impressed by the way this thread has headed. Considering people are discussing quite dramatically different viewpoints, this thread has remained remarkably civil.

As for Pistoliers, don't forget that they can do a lot of things better than Dark Riders too! They are extremely effective 'shock' troops, much better at hitting flanks than Dark Riders. Don Riddick even uses his as pseudo Assassins - when he sees a Mage in a unit, he will often sacrifice a unit of Pistoliers to take them out. The Mage will take 4 S4 and 2 S3 hits in the first turn, and this is normally enough to kill them...

Oh, and Lord Uramael - when opponents find out I play Dark Elves they normally rub their hands together with glee and start drooling. No I'm not kidding. (This changes after I beat them of course ;)) The fact is that Dark Elves are not very well respected amongst good players. Probably rightly so.
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Post by Langmann »

CrimsonDeath wrote:
The Word of Pain wrote:Pistoliers are good, very good in fact (My other army is Empire and I have 2 units of 6, with boss/repeater pistol, very nasty on the charge!), but they are nowhere near as godd as Dark riders


Well first off, I thought I should point out that I am very impressed by the way this thread has headed. Considering people are discussing quite dramatically different viewpoints, this thread has remained remarkably civil.

As for Pistoliers, don't forget that they can do a lot of things better than Dark Riders too! They are extremely effective 'shock' troops, much better at hitting flanks than Dark Riders. Don Riddick even uses his as pseudo Assassins - when he sees a Mage in a unit, he will often sacrifice a unit of Pistoliers to take them out. The Mage will take 4 S4 and 2 S3 hits in the first turn, and this is normally enough to kill them...



Sorry, why are Pistoliers better at hitting flanks? It must be something I cannot remember, please remind me. (I'm being serious, I can't remember, I am not trying to insult you!)

Yes I like this discussion its very mature and good points are being raised.

CrimsonDeath wrote:
Oh, and Lord Uramael - when opponents find out I play Dark Elves they normally rub their hands together with glee and start drooling. No I'm not kidding. (This changes after I beat them of course ;)) The fact is that Dark Elves are not very well respected amongst good players. Probably rightly so.


I get that all the time. People want to play against me when I'm playing DE because they think they get an easy win. And sometimes they do. Is it because people say DE are not as balanced or is it because they are not? I haven't decided yet.
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Post by Thanee »

CrimsonDeath wrote:Well first off, I thought I should point out that I am very impressed by the way this thread has headed. Considering people are discussing quite dramatically different viewpoints, this thread has remained remarkably civil.


Hey, we're the most civilized race in the world! :D

I'll post something on topic later (probably tomorrow), havn't read it all yet! :)

One thing... I think, that the Dark Elves are definitely one of the stronger armies out there, if used correctly!

That, however, doesn't make the army book any better! ;)

Complains are not always equal to whining!

I always said, that I do not think our list is lacking power and I really do not want to make it much better powerwise, but it lacks diversity and character, and that's what should be taken care of!

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Post by Crimsondeath »

langmann wrote:Sorry, why are Pistoliers better at hitting flanks? It must be something I cannot remember, please remind me. (I'm being serious, I can't remember, I am not trying to insult you!)


In the first round of combat, they get 2 x S4 (Armour Piercing) attacks and a S3 attack. Dark Riders only get a single S4 and an S3 attack per model. They are also a fair bit cheaper! (18 points fully kitted out IIRC)

True, they are not quite as versatile as Dark Riders, but they are cheaper and hit very hard...
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

Lord Uramael wrote:It could be a good way, but simply make it as: whenever you have less WS you hit on 5+ ? goblins aren't the only unit we have trouble with point wise :).

As an O&G player, are the druchii players giving you a challenge?


as a night gobbo player i can say OH YES!! the fact that on turn one i have what 9-12 fanatics loose right in front of me isn't much fo a help! then fear. i have LD 7 with my general!! and they beat the snot out of my troops (cept the squigherd, so far noone has been foolish enough to charge it. though they shoot it to pieces :( )
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Post by Langmann »

Thanks Crimson Death. :)

I think that in order to characterize us better, GW should make cityguard part of our core list, not part of just a specialized force. Should then make warriors just 7 points, with spears and shields upgradeable. They wouldn't have to change anything as far as models go, and while its true no-one would use warriors, cityguard are a colorful and viable option for core rather than just corsairs.

Balances out the fluff of the high elves getting fights in 3 ranks.

Most people prefer corsairs over spear warriors and I think most would use them if they were the same purchasing price (real dollars/pounds/francs etc.) as spear warriors.

Is there a reason they have not done this?
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Post by Langmann »

Linda wrote:
Lord Uramael wrote:It could be a good way, but simply make it as: whenever you have less WS you hit on 5+ ? goblins aren't the only unit we have trouble with point wise :).

As an O&G player, are the druchii players giving you a challenge?


as a night gobbo player i can say OH YES!! the fact that on turn one i have what 9-12 fanatics loose right in front of me isn't much fo a help! then fear. i have LD 7 with my general!! and they beat the snot out of my troops (cept the squigherd, so far noone has been foolish enough to charge it. though they shoot it to pieces :( )


Quite right Linda, as a O&G player, a gobblin army is very hard to play, but lots of fun. Almost impossible to win with, though.

Though I do think our gobbos should be WS1. Against most humans we'd attack as usual on a 4+ but I think due to the reasons I have expressed in previous posts, we would still be still balanced with elves.
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
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Crimsondeath
Cold One Knight
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Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:58 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by Crimsondeath »

I think some of the comments here are a bit misplaced - I mean, as an O&G player nobody is forcing you to have a Ld7 general. You have the option of taking Ld9 generals, so why wouldn't you? If you choose to play in character (fluffy) and take a Ld7 general though, don't complain about it!

Oh, and about the goblin comparisons (which are quite amusing!), please everyone, DO NOT simulate a combat with Executioners and goblins. It will just make you even more depressed :roll:

Actually, as far as I can tell, the only infantry unit we have that is capable of winning on a regular basis (against anybody!) are our lovely Witch Elves. Hmmmmm, maybe this is the direction GW want us to take? ;)
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Shockwave
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Post by Shockwave »

Ok first things first.

-Lord Uramael
i agree 100% with what you said to linda and whaledawg

-Linda
your views are just as valid as everyone else's. I myself seem to sit between both camps on this one. On one side i am with the maths they show that dark elfs can't hold on their own, however i agree that certain elements can not be accounted for in addition say i have said earlyer the Delf army is a MANOVUER army.

But what poeple have seem to of forgoten is that just cos gobbo's fear elfs. cos they only have 28 men to our 20 doesn't mean we auto break them because we don't. We need to out number them to do that.Which we don't.

Thank you langmann
Unfortunately you have just proven your own point wrong. You put forward that you as a skilled player know how to beat DElfs with your O/G. What me and others are saying is that the samed skilled player with Delfs will lose to an equally skilled player with almost anyother army. The reason being if the generals are equal than it comes down to the ability of the army list of which the Delf army is INFEARIOR(?).
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

Strangely, been here longer than most of the Admin staff.......
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Langmann
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
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Post by Langmann »

Shockwave wrote:Ok first things first.

-Lord Uramael
i agree 100% with what you said to linda and whaledawg

-Linda
your views are just as valid as everyone else's. I myself seem to sit between both camps on this one. On one side i am with the maths they show that dark elfs can't hold on their own, however i agree that certain elements can not be accounted for in addition say i have said earlyer the Delf army is a MANOVUER army.

But what poeple have seem to of forgoten is that just cos gobbo's fear elfs. cos they only have 28 men to our 20 doesn't mean we auto break them because we don't. We need to out number them to do that.Which we don't.





Yes right about autobreak, but what I meant is that if you take of unit of goblins of 28 in size you usually get whittled down into autobreakable units. It was just a point about my style of play, not anything do with with DE per say. I do not claim to be the best O/G player there is, its just why I use 40 gobbos.

The math says the DE can hold their own in a 5 frontage vs a 6 frontage of goblins. Any more frontage of goblins and we are done for. On a one to one basis goblins get roasted.

Shockwave wrote:Thank you langmann
Unfortunately you have just proven your own point wrong. You put forward that you as a skilled player know how to beat DElfs with your O/G. What me and others are saying is that the samed skilled player with Delfs will lose to an equally skilled player with almost anyother army. The reason being if the generals are equal than it comes down to the ability of the army list of which the Delf army is INFEARIOR(?).


Actually I was never making that final point. My point, and I believe Knightsaber's also, is that its not 'math' or 'combat abilities' but the other things we need to consider that make hordes hard for DE. In fact I said the my win percentage favoured O&G, but that may be possible since DE are somewhat harder to play. Read my last long post about hordes and you'll see that I am arguing somewhat for what you think.

Right now I am undecided as to whether the DE are unbalanced.
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
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