Yet Another Stab at the DE

[Langmann]

Someone convince me I'm wrong. Please.

Something was nagging my mind a few days ago and so I looked again and I was right. In the Dwarf book you can get a rune of gromril, which gives you a +1 AS for 25 points. Us DE get the Armour of Darkness which gives us a +2 AS for guess what 25 points.

Now as someone suggested since the DE have as their schtick "stupidity" (as we have so many units which could possibly succumb to this), are we so stupid that we cannot find better armour for the same price or are we stupid enough that we get sold substandard armour by the charlatan that sells it?

Not that I ever take that armour b/c we can get the same save with another combo...

Just more evidence that our book came out early.

I hope this was not posted before and I am not repeating someone else.

[Sureal]

Bummer, I wonder if any other races get magic items for cheaper>

the BM have a magic banner that gives +1 attack when the unit charges for 50pts (though I think only a speciic unit can use it) - a bit similar to our 80pts magic banner.

[Dekhalan]

gives you a +1 AS for 25 points. Us DE get the Armour of Darkness which gives us a +2 AS for guess what 25 points.

I'll clarify - 1+ save and a 2+ (Big differance between +1 and 1+)

It is a shame though...

[Yeurl]

You should go and read the Skaven book in detail; ward saves of 5+ plus special rule for 25-30 points, assassins for about 60% ours, troops with Ld9 as core (and cheaper, and bigger units)...

But I don't care; it'll just take more fun crushing it all!

I hope they'll really take a look at the DE book; after what I've read about Khemri and Lizardmen, DE sure lack "something".

[Sureal]

That "something" is lack of care and time (as well as being wrote by someone who doesn't play DE and doesn't intend too)

[Langmann]

My only hope in the sanity of GW lies in the fact that they seemed to realize that raising a dwarfs toughness from 5 to 6 is a big advantage, and made that upgrade 75 points (its usually 50 points to raise T by one. I think for DE it should cost 25 points to raise our T by 1, but anyway.)

[Crimsondeath]

Something was nagging my mind a few days ago and so I looked again and I was right. In the Dwarf book you can get a rune of gromril, which gives you a +1 AS for 25 points. Us DE get the Armour of Darkness which gives us a +2 AS for guess what 25 points.

Ahh, there IS a slight difference here - the stunties actually need to buy a suit of armour first to stick the rune on (which bumps the price up a bit).

But yes, the Armour of Darkness is crap. I think the standard price for a suit of armour that gives a 1+ save (without a shield) is 30 points. So we get some armour that gives a 2+ save and includes a shield for 25... Errrrr....

Even according to GW's twisted internal costing structure it should only cost 20 points (-5 for 1 point of AS, -5 because it takes an additional hand). Of course, I happen to disagree with the whole "-5 points for the extra hand" bit - I think this should be more like -10 or even -15 in some cases...

[Langmann]

Something was nagging my mind a few days ago and so I looked again and I was right. In the Dwarf book you can get a rune of gromril, which gives you a +1 AS for 25 points. Us DE get the Armour of Darkness which gives us a +2 AS for guess what 25 points.

Ahh, there IS a slight difference here - the stunties actually need to buy a suit of armour first to stick the rune on (which bumps the price up a bit).

But yes, the Armour of Darkness is crap. I think the standard price for a suit of armour that gives a 1+ save (without a shield) is 30 points. So we get some armour that gives a 2+ save and includes a shield for 25... Errrrr....

Even according to GW's twisted internal costing structure it should only cost 20 points (-5 for 1 point of AS, -5 because it takes an additional hand). Of course, I happen to disagree with the whole "-5 points for the extra hand" bit - I think this should be more like -10 or even -15 in some cases...

Yeah I thought of the armour cost already, but its just a few measly points (you could in concept arm yourself with cheap light armour) and it takes nothing out of your alloted MAGIC points, which means its like comparing apples and oranges, really. I wouldn't buy their argument if they tried to use that as it. The dwarfs ability to flexibly make any type of weapon/armour magic combo outweighs the cost of buying the base item IMHO. What do you think?

However the hand availability is quite an important difference. If it was +1 save then it would mean a few items are unavailable for us, while the dwarfs could arm whatever they wanted with a rune.

[Crimsondeath]

Yeah I thought of the armour cost already, but its just a few measly points (you could in concept arm yourself with cheap light armour) and it takes nothing out of your alloted MAGIC points, which means its like comparing apples and oranges, really. I wouldn't buy their argument if they tried to use that as it. The dwarfs ability to flexibly make any type of weapon/armour magic combo outweighs the cost of buying the base item IMHO. What do you think?

However the hand availability is quite an important difference. If it was +1 save then it would mean a few items are unavailable for us, while the dwarfs could arm whatever they wanted with a rune.

Yes, the typical Dwarf tactic is to purchase Light Armour to stick the rune on.... :sigh: And yes, it is like comparing apples to oranges although to be honest, I try to avoid using my full magic item allotment anyway - it's a big mistake that a lot of people make IMO.

I think the Dwarf rule for DIY Magic Items is an excellent one - it is such a pity that nobody else can do anything similar. So yes, I would love to be able to do what they can, and I do consider it one of their advantages - the rest of us are stuck with whatever crap GW gives us

The whole "takes an extra hand" thing is pretty stupid IMHO. Take the Crimson Death (no, not me - the weapon!) - in D&D terms, it is basically a Halberd +1. Now compare it to a Sword of Might, which is basically a Sword +1.

Put like that, it should cost about the same as the Sword of Might. Instead, GW cost it almost the same as those weapons that give you +2 Strength (40 points), and give you a slight reduction in price (-5 points) because you need to use an extra hand! So yeah, you could say that I disagree here too

[Langmann]

I rarely use the full allotment for my highborns either, usually gauntlet and enchanted shield (if not mounted on CO) with sea cloak, heavy armour etc. But if I had available a 4+ ward save I may think about it. My friend loads his dwarf lords up, and I don't blame him. If I want to trounce his lord I gotta usually bring a mount, perhaps thats the balance.

I wish all races had DIY items, and I think they should. But perhaps its what makes the dwaves special, I don't know. Its definately cool, and makes sense.

When it comes to Crimson Death (the weapon not you) there I can see their point a little, it gives you a strength of 6 (basically +2 to our S4) but requires another hand, so it should be less than a +2 one handed weapon but more than a +1 weapon. It should perhaps balance out the fact you cannot take a shield, as you say, but then again if you had some type of armour that gave us a +1 without a shield, it wouldn't matter.

I think they just didn't think about it, or perhaps someone there really doesn't like DE? I cannot imagine wanting to produce a bad product for personal feelings, but who knows.

[Thanee]

Magic armour cost is 5 pts per +1, this is very consistent throughout all the army books, with the high save armours not being combineable with other armour usually.

Basically, the Armour of Darkness does get a disadvantage (shield included) for free.

If that silly sentence was dropped, the Armour would be fine.

Bye
Thanee

[Thanee]

The Crimson Death (Halberd) is also not very brilliantly done. The disadvantage of using 2 hands is worth more than those 5 points, 10 would be appropriate.

Of course, compared to a Greatweapon, it's simply striking in initiative order during the 2nd and further rounds of any combat, which is surely not worth 30 points, giving the Greatweapon a huge benefit in comparison.

Also, compared to a Halberd, it's +1 Strength for about 30 points, which also doesn't sound right.

30 points would be ok for the Crimson Death, 35 is too much.

Bye
Thanee

[Da'ghault]

There is actually another very small advantage with Crimson Death.
You always strike with S6. Cannot be modified in any way.
I still agree though that this weapon should only cost 30 points.

I think some different costs on the same things can be explained, but many others can not be explained.

Da'Ghault Deceiver of the Damned

[Sortelveren]

But I don't care; it'll just take more fun crushing it all!

i agree with yeurl. i think we have to live with the armybook, and enjoy the look on the opponnents face when he is defeated by the de...

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

There is actually another very small advantage with Crimson Death.
You always strike with S6. Cannot be modified in any way.
I still agree though that this weapon should only cost 30 points.

I think some different costs on the same things can be explained, but many others can not be explained.

Da'Ghault Deceiver of the Damned

Yes, this is an advantage in the rare circumstances when you're strenght is reduced for some reason (Shield of Ghrond, magic and poison that makes your character weaker, etc.)

But in most cases this advantage is not a factor in the game.

And I also agree that the Crimson Death is a bit overpriced.

[Langmann]

Magic armour cost is 5 pts per +1, this is very consistent throughout all the army books, with the high save armours not being combineable with other armour usually.

Basically, the Armour of Darkness does get a disadvantage (shield included) for free.

If that silly sentence was dropped, the Armour would be fine.

Bye
Thanee

Yes agreed. We should have access to +1 armour or 4+ ward save.

[Thanee]

Yes, this is an advantage in the rare circumstances when you're strenght is reduced for some reason (Shield of Ghrond, magic and poison that makes your character weaker, etc.).

Do other armies also have strength reducing stuff, or are we the only ones?

Bye
Thanee

[Crimsondeath]

Do other armies also have strength reducing stuff, or are we the only ones?

Bye
Thanee

Hmmm, can't think of any! It's kind of ironic that the only advantage of the Crimson Death is when using it against other Dark Elves! What were they thinking?!?!

[Linda lobsta defenda]

Do other armies also have strength reducing stuff, or are we the only ones?

Bye
Thanee

can't find a single one

[Dekhalan]

Do other armies also have strength reducing stuff, or are we the only ones?

Bye
Thanee

can't find a single one

Well, lets hope that those good folks at GW put some strength reducers in the other army lists then, eh ?

[Thanee]

There is actually another very small advantage with Crimson Death.
You always strike with S6. Cannot be modified in any way.

Very small, indeed!

Bye
Thanee

[Ezeraal]

The biggest stuff up IMO is within the DE items, ie compare the Executioner's Axe (80 pts) to the Gauntlet of Power (60 pts). For those extra 20 pts, the axe is two handed, and is only more useful against an opponent with a T of 7 (axe still wounds on 2+, gauntlet on 3+), and the axe is worse against things such as elite knights, where it only gives a S6 (with -3 save).

What was the point of releasing an item that is twice as good for less of the cost within the same army list?!?! DE may need more magic itmes, but what's the point in just making other ones redundant?!? Lots of thought obviously went into this one.

However, looking at the new Beasts of Chaos list, they gey gyped on two magic weapons. One gives +1 attack and re-roll misses for 75 pts, but counts as an additional hand weapon. Correct costs for the magcal abilities, but no discount for the penalty of taking up the extra 'hand' slot.

Also, they have an item that counts an opponent as 2 less T, which costs 40 pts. Nice gimmick, but it is essentially the same effect as giving your character +2 S, but without modifying armour saves for no discount!

[Thanee]

Also, they have an item that counts an opponent as 2 less T, which costs 40 pts. Nice gimmick, but it is essentially the same effect as giving your character +2 S, but without modifying armour saves for no discount!

Yep, that one is completely unnecessary, they could just make it +2 S, like any other weapon of this kind.

Bye
Thanee

[Sureal]

Yeah, I noticed that too - you may as well take a great weapon!

[Langmann]

They are trying to be cute but I have ANOTHER one:

Looking through our book, and trying to find a 4+ wards save, I have found what could be close...

The armour of living servitude... 6+ save with ability of regeneration. 60 points.

Now to get an AS of 4+ I can add a shield and cloak. The total cost is 69 points.

Dwarves get a rune of gromril which can be applied to light armour for a total of 28 points giving them AS 1+. (25 magic, 3 armour cost). Plus they also get a 4+ ward save rune applied to a talisman for 45 points. Total cost for 1+ AS and 4+ ward save is 73 points.

O&G for example get a shield which gives 4+ ward save and a 6+ AS for 50 points. You can add heavy armour and get an AS of 4+ for CHEAPER than the DE above. 50 + 6 = 56 points.

Alright lets talk about regeneration and ward saves first. Both allow you to make a save for each wound for 4+. However regeneration is not as good for two reasons, one it can be screwed up permanently by fire. Second it happens after combat is over, so conceivable if your opponent went first and inflicted 3 wounds you'd regenerate some but would not be allowed to strike back that combat round!

So for more expensive we get a type of ward save that is not as good, effective, can be removed, and gives us an armour save not as good as some other races who have talismans.

Someone tell me I'm wrong here.