Something has to be done............

Bloodtemplar · Post by **Bloodtemplar** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 1:04 pm

Dark Alliance wrote:You are entitled to your opinion on the subject of flaming. Mine is, I am against such a course of action for the reasons stated.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not encouraging flaming GW boards here but if that's the inevitable consequence of starting a Dark Elf thread, so be it. We shouldn't leave our opinions unknown just because few idiots can't accept them.

Leithel and odd · Post by **Leithel and odd** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 1:11 pm

BloodTemplar wrote:Leithel, speaking only for my behalf I can say that it's not the win/loss ratio I'm worried about. It's the fact that there are few minor, simple mistakes that make some choices completely invalid. These could have easily been fixed in WD/Annual/Chronicles ages ago but Gav has decided to do nothing about it.

I do agree with you, but IMHO they are minor issues (HA on executioners because of WYSIWYG for example and perhaps a more "interesting magic item list).

But to promote the level of discussion that I see people must sure think that there are more issues than these minor ones as they redily point out. I'm just trying to put light on the positive side as it must be disenheartening for new Druchii who view this site.

Post by **Thanee** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 1:13 pm

Draichlord wrote:ANY DE PLAYER who defends or tries to defend him is a fool and deserves exactly what they've gotten.

Just wanted to add, that I do defend Gav, but not when it comes to criticising his work, which I fully agree with (the critics that is), but only when it comes to personal insults, which are a different thing entirely!

Note, that this does not mean to imply that you did insult him here!

Basically I'm not really defending him, but more the good manners, if you want to put it like that!

Bye
Thanee

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 1:14 pm

BloodTemplar wrote:
Dark Alliance wrote:You are entitled to your opinion on the subject of flaming. Mine is, I am against such a course of action for the reasons stated.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not encouraging flaming GW boards here but if that's the inevitable consequence of starting a Dark Elf thread, so be it. We shouldn't leave our opinions unknown just because few idiots can't accept them.

That's good to hear. All I ask is let us try the petition first, in the professional manner we intend to present it.

Good to debate with you

Leithel and odd · Post by **Leithel and odd** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 1:15 pm

I personally think there is too much discussion of Gav on this forum all together. Hasn't anyone worked for a corporation and been forced to push something out the door that wasn't ready? Gav has playtesters, proof readers etc... if you want to blame anyone I suggest the GW corporation as a whole.

Yokozuna · Post by **Yokozuna** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 3:04 pm

Instead of getting the armybooks out one at the time, they should take their time. That way they could get it all right and noone would be disappointed.
I don't think that people would mind waiting, if there were no flaws in the resulting product.

Bloodtemplar · Post by **Bloodtemplar** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 3:09 pm

Wraith wrote:Instead of getting the armybooks out one at the time, they should take their time. That way they could get it all right and noone would be disappointed.
I don't think that people would mind waiting, if there were no flaws in the resulting product.

Doesn't happen. The armies sell so much better when they are released a good time apart.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 3:09 pm

What irks me is that the whole thing could be corrected in a 1-page WD article like what was done for the 40K armies of the Dark Angels and Dark Eldar (the army our army was modeled after, mind you).

It really does not require that much effort on GW's part. They have to know at this point the most common complaints of the list.

I am being patient and I am willing to wait until all the army books are released, because I do understand that some armies don't even have books yet and that they take priority.

BUT, if no re-write is begun very soon after the last army book is released, I will go ape shiz. :evil:

Methylparoben · Post by **Methylparoben** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 3:25 pm

Pokeme wrote:

"The number of DE players does not improve the statistic. It only makes it more accurate, or in mathematical terms normal"

However the number of successes should be propoortional to the number of dark elves armies, assuming that army choice and generalship are independent. Actually if someone has the raw data, I could compute a Chi-Square test statistic to show all of you uneducated saps, just how dependent our chances of winning are!

Dralor · Post by **Dralor** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 3:33 pm

If the DE book had been great, Gav would take the credit.
It sucks, so he takes the blame.

He made the stupid COK rules as he even says so in white dwarf, and he has the final say.

I agree Gav should be fired, any other company would.

Maybe we should all spam the GW boards, that'll get his attention.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:14 pm

Dralor wrote:Maybe we should all spam the GW boards, that'll get his attention.

No, we leave that to you.

Post by **Imdat tauble** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 7:22 pm

when we get the petition done we'll try the GW forums, just for the sake of it. And we'll say how many people accepted it...

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:14 pm

It needs to be presented to GW before it hits the GW forums

Yeurl · Post by **Yeurl** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:34 pm

And how do we get through all the filtering that is due to appear before it reaches Gav? Just wondering...

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:44 pm

Yeurl wrote:And how do we get through all the filtering that is due to appear before it reaches Gav? Just wondering...

Check out the petitions forum and the grand petition topic. It is all explained there.

Pokeme · Post by **Pokeme** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 9:05 am

So far, has anyone really sent a serious petition at all???

Its cool to meet Gav personally and talk things out, but unlikely.

I don't really unstand why Gav is going through all this. If he wrapped up his mistake immediately he would have become a hero. But now, even if he manages to repair his mistake, it would be seen as slow service response.

Pokeme · Post by **Pokeme** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 9:42 am

Ok............this really makes me angry!!!

We DEs are supposed to have the most monsters....yes yes??

Now hey look at the new carnosaur!!!

From what I hear, both monsters that the lizzies own are far better than the hydra in standards.............just about the same when comparing the casket to our cauldron.

It really makes me angry!!!!

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:26 am

PokeMe wrote:So far, has anyone really sent a serious petition at all???

Its cool to meet Gav personally and talk things out, but unlikely.

I don't really unstand why Gav is going through all this. If he wrapped up his mistake immediately he would have become a hero. But now, even if he manages to repair his mistake, it would be seen as slow service response.

The 'petition' and our suggested changes are being compiled now ( check out the petition forum ) as for whether anyone has done anything like this already, I doubt it, mostly it seems people have just had a go on an individual basis.

And with a strong enough voice I don't beleive that GW can afford not to hear us out, as long as the approach is on their level. And as for Gav, he is in a no win situation anyway. You are right in that he should have fixed this sooner, but he/they (GW) still can. And they can still come out of this with heads high if they need to play the propaganda game.

And as for then being branded as slow response, will anyone really care? Once a revision or changes have been made. Anyone who then chooses to carry this on will be quickly ignored I feel.

This whole thing is not about winning points, it's about getting the fixes we need.

Pokeme · Post by **Pokeme** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 2:54 pm

I suggest we do diplomacy, then action.

Post by **Rork** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 2:14 pm

Pierre wrote:I really like how Gav sems to be annoyed so much by Dark Elf posts he avoids the Warhammer forum altogether. He even posted a request to stop complaining... glad to see that had its desired effect. I don't think you can reason with a man who ignores reason because of pride. I've mailed GW too, they refuse to respond... even White Dwarf looks the other way. You'd think someone would say enough is enough and here's your change. But, that would require being honest.

I see no path to get it changed except through antagonizing him till he snaps.

So much for that reasoned argument and all those users with experience...

Pokeme · Post by **Pokeme** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 11:55 pm

Its Gav Thorpe after all.

Post by **Dark Alliance** » Sat Nov 23, 2002 12:33 am

When this petition is ready to be presented to Gw my opinion is that it will not be Gav who we see. I feel that as this ball starts rolling this will be taken out of his hands.

Internally within GW we are offering someone a golden opportunity to make a name for theirselves and I believe GW staff will be queueing up to get involved here.

Just wait and see what is planned guys............ as this moves on.

Something has to be done............

Tut tut tut...