Something has to be done............

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights

User avatar
Pokeme
Beastmaster
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:33 pm
Location: Arnheim
Contact:

Something has to be done............

Post by Pokeme »

I wish to hear everyones opinions on this........

How do we make Gav write our revision?
Life is like a piece of coco, u never knew who will get you.
Kitrik
Fearless Leader of the "Cult of Kitrik"
Posts: 302
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2002 1:56 am
Location: Minnesota
Contact:

Post by Kitrik »

I remember a long time ago something about a Druchii.net Blood letter. Any thoughts on actually doing this?

http://druchii.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Kitrik
User avatar
Adreal_the_immaculate
Assassin
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2002 10:48 am
Location: around that way girl

Post by Adreal_the_immaculate »

lol, though the blood letter may be fun, Gav would just dismiss it, no what we all should do, is work out fixes for the dark elf book, spam the hell out of the dev. forum and keep sending it to warhammer chronicals
its not the lies that you say, but what the silence will scream
User avatar
Draichlord
Noble
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:20 pm
Location: Gardner,Massachusetts

Post by Draichlord »

I've written 2 letters (from U.S. to U.K.) said what I thought was wrong, offered fixes/ideas. Sent another letter to GW US. The only response I ever got was from GW US. They said there'd be no changes to DE and if I didn't like it to play another army. This is why I have absolutely no respect for Thorpe at all. There's no way you'll ever get a guy who doesn't own or play DE, despite the fact he wrote our book and damn well knows he made alot of mistakes, to ever fix it. He's like the little boy who owns the ball everyone is playing the game with and when things don't go his way says," I'm taking my ball and going home"....simply because he can. His actions to date go against everything I was raised with. If you make a mistake you should be MAN ENOUGH to admit it and correct the mistake IMMEDIATELY. In my eyes, he's no more than a devious punk with all the B.S. and lies he's laid on the entire DE community. Guess you can say I'm not shy about my feelings on this subject. ANY DE PLAYER who defends or tries to defend him is a fool and deserves exactly what they've gotten.
If you run, you'll just die tired
Kitrik
Fearless Leader of the "Cult of Kitrik"
Posts: 302
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2002 1:56 am
Location: Minnesota
Contact:

Post by Kitrik »

dang Draichlord - easy! (though I feel pretty much the same way...)

I don't know what we need to do to get his attention. Spamming the GW forums will only label us as whiners, which I think we finally kicked, so that should be out of the question. Maybe we could strike? We have an ungodly representation of DE players here - what if, through massive amounts of advertising, we had as many DE players stop buying DEs. Also stop having the DEs entered in any GW tournament. This would turn some eyes at the top, seeing their precious DE sales go down (their best models IMO) and no DE armies at any tournament! Then we can spring some revision on them (and maybe a few Franklins...). If worse comes to worse, hire the IRA from Ireland and have them take Thorpe hostage. They work for pretty cheap... :twisted: !lol! !lol! !lol!

Kitrik
User avatar
Draichlord
Noble
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:20 pm
Location: Gardner,Massachusetts

Post by Draichlord »

If Thorpe worked for any "normal" company and he had his abysmal record of failures in game development, he'd have been in the unemployment line long ago. Can anyone in this forum name anything besides Dwarves that he's had success with.....I mean that the majority were pleased with and it didn't require a later fix? Because to my knowledge, everything he's done (except dwarves), got nothing but a bunch of complaints and has always required a revision/rewrite. I've come up with a new product that's 99% reliable. It's called "INSTANT shiz"....all you do is add Gav.
If you run, you'll just die tired
User avatar
Pokeme
Beastmaster
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:33 pm
Location: Arnheim
Contact:

Post by Pokeme »

I'm really interested in a boycott...........but it needs team work.
Life is like a piece of coco, u never knew who will get you.
User avatar
Pokeme
Beastmaster
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:33 pm
Location: Arnheim
Contact:

Post by Pokeme »

Ripped from WPS.......

On these forums, it's always been a topic of constant debate just how good or bad a particular army is.

Taking advantage of some recent sick leave, in an effort to ward off boredom I compiled an objective analysis of the generalship scores of four recent tournaments: GW GT heats 1 & 2, Weymouth and WPS GT.

The results were included on spreadsheets, sorted and analysed. As expected, certain patterns emerged. Of course, the accompanying assumptions and methods are key to the validity of the data presented.

NB. Unfortunately, it appears that I cannot include the data on this post due to the way in which this forum presents data: the tabular format does not transpose from XL. If anybody wants the spreadsheet then please EMAIL me and I'll get a copy to them.

Main findings
Chaos and Vampire Counts are the strongest and most widely played armies at tournaments.
Skaven, Brettonians and Wood Elves as also very strong armies but are not as widely played as the above.
High and Dark Elves are the weakest.

Assumptions
i. In any tournament if an army had fewer than 5 players AND less than 5% of the field, then it was excluded from the field as a crude way to reduce the 'errors' caused by outliers.
ii. Tournament players are as attracted to the potential strength of an army as they are to 'the fluff'. Therefore, if a player likes two races equally but thinks one is better than the other, then - if they have a choice - that army is more likely to be taken. To put it another way, they'd prefer not to take what they perceive to be a weak army. The validity of this assumption is supported by the high number of players that field Chaos and Vampire Counts.
iii. There is an equal spread of talent among all players that choose their army on a 'fluff' basis alone.
iv. Tournament players are generally motivated by a desire to win thus tournaments are the best way to assess strength of armies.

Other comments
Players will naturally draw their own conclusions and this is just a start - but at least it is objective. For the meantime, these are some personal thoughts I've had based on the above:
i. Empire and Lizardmen aren't the easiest armies to play but have great potential when played well.
ii. Dwarfs have disproportionately low placings, not because of their inability to win games but because of their inability (due to lack of manoeuvrability and speed) to finish opponents off thus gain higher generalship scores.

Finally...
Do I believe that the above results are definitive? No, but I do think they are highly suggestive.

Cheers

Aranar
Life is like a piece of coco, u never knew who will get you.
User avatar
Draichlord
Noble
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:20 pm
Location: Gardner,Massachusetts

Post by Draichlord »

This was evident in the albion campaign when there were more de armies than any other , yet only managed a 48% win ratio. Did GW take the hint? No!
If you run, you'll just die tired
User avatar
Pokeme
Beastmaster
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:33 pm
Location: Arnheim
Contact:

Post by Pokeme »

The number of DE players does not improve the statistic. It only makes it more accurate, or in mathematical terms normal.
Life is like a piece of coco, u never knew who will get you.
User avatar
Dungeon_god
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1611
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:35 pm
Location: Stuck in Salt Lake City
Contact:

Post by Dungeon_god »

PokeMe, I think Drachlord was agreeing with you.

And, in reality, he is correct-although we won the most games of any other army, we also had something like twice the number of games as the next closest army. That to me says that something is wrong with our army. :|
Well, time WOULD be nice...
And, Storm of Chaos is here. Are you ready?
User avatar
Langmann
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Malekith's Tastetester & Physician
Posts: 5170
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 9:41 pm
Location: Putting needles into people.

Post by Langmann »

I can see why VC are so good. When they have lords and heros that can fly about, thenselves able to take apart most regiments, can cast powerful spells, and have troops that are immune to psychology its no wonder. You don't have to strategize as much.
While running a million dollar company, singing at weddings, and his frequent jetting to Spain Elton Jon style, Dark Alliance found the time to stand on the doorstep of Games Workshop like Moses and the Pharoah and calmly state, "Let my people go."
User avatar
Furion
High Sorcerer
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 6:55 am
Location: Clar Karond
Contact:

Post by Furion »

I really like how Gav sems to be annoyed so much by Dark Elf posts he avoids the Warhammer forum altogether. He even posted a request to stop complaining... glad to see that had its desired effect. I don't think you can reason with a man who ignores reason because of pride. I've mailed GW too, they refuse to respond... even White Dwarf looks the other way. You'd think someone would say enough is enough and here's your change. But, that would require being honest.

I see no path to get it changed except through antagonizing him till he snaps.
Image
Putting the FUN back into fundamentalism since 1998
User avatar
Shockwave
Highborn
Posts: 725
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:31 am
Location: Northamptonshire

Post by Shockwave »

I beleive that at the time of the Albian campaign Delfs were suffing from somthing i've coined as "the space marine syndrome"

Let me Explain. If you was to take a demographic of every one who plays 40K you would have a very large percent that play space marines. However if you was to then put everyone of those players and all the other into a huge torneyment you would have a tiny percent that were any good as players.

Whats this got to do with Delfs? well Delfs were released just before/ at the begining of the Albian campaign thus everyone was buying them this inflated the number of games played horrendously but because so few were "good" players it didn't help our win percentage much (we placed top of the bottom half based on win percent)

So although we won the most games because we played the most we were losing more than we won. Thats no claim of victory.

Side Note: before the DElfs book came out i was the only Delf player (at the store). during the Albian campaign about 4 others who started playing Delfs. Now? i'm the only one again. it's another point the proves that people bought the army cos it was new and because the models are spanking gorgeous, but once they relised that the army was crap/ very diffcult to play they gave up.

of the other army's that had there own books only O&G had a lower percent win than us (i'm including Helfs cos they got their book toward the end) all of those that had a lower percent win are:
O&G, Beastmen, Dog's of war, Daemons, Khemri.
of the 16 armys that were involved we placed 10th.
there were 6 armys that DIDN'T have books that placed better than us. In addition all the armys with books (exception O7G's and Delfs) placed top 5.

That Boys and Girls (and those who are unsure) is evediance saying somthing is wrong.
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

Strangely, been here longer than most of the Admin staff.......
User avatar
Mime
Black Guard
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 10:05 pm
Location: New Zealand

Post by Mime »

I'm just wondering what the summer of Chaos will bring, if it's run in the same way as the Albion campaign that is. I think it will give everyone a better idea of where the DE lie.

Heh we could always fluff it in protest. :twisted:

Mike
Whip me, beat me, bash me, crash me, throw me against the wall, oh ah baby I love it when you treat me rough!!!
Dark Alliance
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured
Posts: 9741
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: In the paintshop

Post by Dark Alliance »

Working out the fixes is what we are trying to do on the petitions forum.

In the meantime, spamming the GW boards and flaming Gav will not help to get any changes made IMO. Antagonising GW in this way will just give them more reason to discount anything we may offer or any approach we may try to make to resolve this highly contentious issue.
User avatar
Impure souls
Highborn
Posts: 676
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:53 am
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post by Impure souls »

yes i want to rip up this tornament spit it out evangelion style and mash my druchii boot all over this damn thing.i want to show games workshop that i will lose every battle i play. see im going to throw the campaign. i am going to lose appallingly by choice. but have a billion battles and deliberatly lose. see im going to lose and have millions of games which going by albion we will get new stuff hopefully. if we have the most battles again hopefully we will get more cool stuff. if we suck and still have the most games they might seriously think about fixing us!! or we could get like 6 new items and only one is good, again. :cry:
i shape my weapons, from the fears of my enemy.
User avatar
Furion
High Sorcerer
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 6:55 am
Location: Clar Karond
Contact:

Post by Furion »

Dark Alliance wrote:Working out the fixes is what we are trying to do on the petitions forum.

In the meantime, spamming the GW boards and flaming Gav will not help to get any changes made IMO. Antagonising GW in this way will just give them more reason to discount anything we may offer or any approach we may try to make to resolve this highly contentious issue.


People have been kind and polite, it gets no where. This petition will be ignored as well. Nothing wrong with holding Gav responsible, last time I checked he was in charge in this area. He's a target...
Image
Putting the FUN back into fundamentalism since 1998
Dark Alliance
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured
Posts: 9741
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: In the paintshop

Post by Dark Alliance »

I'm not saying he shouldn't be held responsible, what I am saying is that pi**ing him off by flaming again won't get us anywhere. That fact has been proven.

If you do something wrong you are embarrassed by it. If you do something wrong and everyone makes a public spectacle of it, and starts to be abusive towards you, you dig your heels in to try and save face. The longer this circle goes on, the harder it becomes to admit your mistake and do something about it.

My intention is for us to meet with Gav face to face, to discuss the issue ( as the majority voice of Druchii.net ) and look to put our proposal in a professional manner, on a business level. Not by post and not by internet. If he is not responsive then we will go higher.

If after that they ( GW ) choose not to react, then you can flame the bejesus out of him, I really wouldn't care. Otherwise we really are going to be wasting our time putting effort into our petition proposals.
User avatar
Bloodtemplar
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1172
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 1:14 pm
Location: Finland

Post by Bloodtemplar »

Pierre wrote:People have been kind and polite, it gets no where. This petition will be ignored as well. Nothing wrong with holding Gav responsible, last time I checked he was in charge in this area. He's a target...


Really, I'm starting to agree with this opinion. We have (at least some of us) tried to be kind about it but Gav has shown absolute ignorance of the Dark Elves since they were released. And please, don't start with the City Garrison and Hydra variants, Gav didn't have anything to do with them (except that he managed to mess up the CG list when it went from the studio to publishing). The only lame attempt to shut us up was to give us few new magic items (which of only one was truly useful).

I can assure you, we don't have enough players here to form a working boycott so what I suggest is that we just keep sending wave after wave of e-mail, posts on the GW message boards and most importantly, REAL letter mail. And I'm not talking about spamming here in the original meaning of the word but writing reasonable messages with good arguments, just send A LOT of it.
Metal for miniatures - plastic for toys.
Dark Alliance
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured
Posts: 9741
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: In the paintshop

Post by Dark Alliance »

The problem with sending wave after wave of content via the GW boards is other people! PAW etc. Flaming will start again and nothing will be achieved.

Well constucted postal mail I agree with, as long as it is constructive and not just having a go.
User avatar
Bloodtemplar
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1172
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 1:14 pm
Location: Finland

Post by Bloodtemplar »

Dark Alliance wrote:The problem with sending wave after wave of content via the GW boards is other people! PAW etc. Flaming will start again and nothing will be achieved.


So? Nothing is achieved in the GW forums anyway so the situation can't get any worse, right? Flame wars at least keep the subject 'heated' so to speak :D

Dark Alliance wrote:Well constucted postal mail I agree with, as long as it is constructive and not just having a go.


Well yes, but there needs to be a lot of it. Gav can easily ignore few whining letters on his office room floor but when that small pile starts reaching his neck he might do something about it.
Metal for miniatures - plastic for toys.
User avatar
Leithel and odd
My own worst enemy
Posts: 2453
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2002 4:58 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by Leithel and odd »

My personal opinion is that the situation isn't as dire as everyone percieves it to be. Mind you it's a personal opinion and you are free to disagree with it.

Regarding the Albion campaign, well a couple of points. Yes there were a lot of Dark Elf games, but out book had only just been released, and I don't know about you guys but I lost my first 4 battles before I had a win. Plus the win ration was 48% and if you ask me reall that isn't that bad. If I win half my battles against people equally skilled at the game I'm happy, slightly less or more I'm still happy. If I won 48/100 games I would not consider that a problem.

Dark Elves are a hard army to play, but that fact and the fact that our modells are great and our fluff is also great makes me enjoy the game so much more. I mean if you're not enjoying a race then you are always free to choose another. I do understand that some people playing before 6th edition might feel ripped off, but hey I'm sure other armies are in the same boat. I don't believe that any armies (released) are stronger in 6th than they were in 5th.

You may be annoyed that the list isn't what you expect it to be, but do you not think that we might be sligntly overstating the issues?
Then, upon the velvet sinking, I betook myself to linking
Fancy unto fancy, thinking what this ominous bird of yore --
What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt and ominous bird of yore
Meant in croaking "Nevermore."

E. A. Poe
User avatar
Bloodtemplar
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1172
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 1:14 pm
Location: Finland

Post by Bloodtemplar »

Leithel, speaking only for my behalf I can say that it's not the win/loss ratio I'm worried about. It's the fact that there are few minor, simple mistakes that make some choices completely invalid. These could have easily been fixed in WD/Annual/Chronicles ages ago but Gav has decided to do nothing about it.
Metal for miniatures - plastic for toys.
Dark Alliance
Morathi's Favoured
Morathi's Favoured
Posts: 9741
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:29 pm
Location: In the paintshop

Post by Dark Alliance »

You are entitled to your opinion on the subject of flaming. Mine is, I am against such a course of action for the reasons stated. :D
Post Reply