What is good about the Dark Elves?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Rork
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Post by Rork »

Dralor wrote:Rork. I hope you wont spam and start flame wars here like you do on the GW forums.


No, that is not my purpose here. You may have noticed that I haven't gone into "Irrate" mode yet. I don't start flame wars - I leave that to others.

I am in enemy territory here, there are far too many here with daggers drawn that would like to get rid of me - I won't make it that easy.

Dralor wrote:In answer to your question, witch elves and corsairs are good.[/u]


Good. This is what I like to hear. Strengths.
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Post by Pokeme »

Now skaven have always had the Ld thing. And I think it suits them rather well - they are very confident until things go wrong.

Skaven do have big exceptions, but they also tend to kill themselves.


Your analysis is simply too superficial.

The problems with Skaven are two-fold IMO:

1 - GW reduced the effect of fire from missle troops in 6th edition, but left the effect of fire from specialist missle units (i.e. warmachines) mostly intact . . . and Skaven have nothing but specialist missle fire, and lots of it. Which would you rather have for 120 points - a unit of 10 HE archers, or 2 Ratling Guns? Skaven have gone from the lowest to the best shooting army in the warhammer world.

2 - Skaven get discounts on virtually everything in the army, ostensibly because there are elements of unreliability above and beyond the norm built in. Problem is, that element of so-called unreliability is extremely easy for a Skaven player to get around in a reliable fashion. After watching ~70 Warp Lightning spells and ~10 Ratling Gun attacks, I've NEVER seen any self-destructive behavior occur from rolling those dice, because simple playing of the odds or use of reroll items keeps it from happening or minimizes the effect when it does. There's no effectve unreliablity in the army. Check that - there's some, but no more than any other army in terms of war machine misfires or LD checks. Its all smoke and mirrors, yet they get the discounts as though it were real. Its the only major mistake the playtesters/GW have made to date IMO.

Put those two together, and the Skaven can do what the folks at GW tried so hard to avoid in 6th edition - they can create the army that needs to do nothing but sit back and destroy every model their opponent fields at range.
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Post by Pokeme »

At the moment I compare Beastmen to the annual daemon list. It's fantastically good, and will scare lots of people - but when the book actually comes out it is going to be heavily watered down.

And if you want to break them, use magic. That is one area where dark elves are quite good.


Magic? Use magic on them? The best spell vs them, soul stealer has a range of 8 inches, which puts you dangerously within their range range. And don't you forget that we elves have a T3, which makes us significantly more vulnerable to magic.

With Staff of Darkoth, you will have more problem with their magic rather than the other way round.

Anyway, you overlooked more of their overpowering factors eg ambush, skirmishing that would suppress most of the elves advantage.
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Post by Pokeme »

You have some exceptionally good units, I would love for my Chaos warriors to get something like black guard or witch elves.


You wouldn't want to have black guards for 16 points. They are simply too expensive to be a tarpit unit. Usually my oppenent doesn't mind being bogged down by them because he knows after finishing with them he would have gotten loads of victory points.

Which are all more expensive!


I don't see why saurus are more expensive than our black guards, but I surely can see how much more cost effective chaos warriors, sauruses are compared to executioners.

If the army can be used, and used well - what is the problem?


Its quite a no-brain question, because its a fact that every army that can be used well will perform well. Well, the problem comes when many of our units in the army doesn't perform up to expectations, or simply isn't cost-effective. Coupled with poor magic items, this is all it takes to make the game unfun for me.
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Post by Pokeme »

You appear to have ways to make these units work


Having ways to make these units work doesn't equate to "combat fit". I have ways to make the cauldron work in certain scenarios, but at the end of the day it wouldn't work as well as I expect it to..........and anyway a rare that can be taken only in a few suitations is simply too specialised.

Executioners is another. Having a great weapon seems to be more of a disadvantage to me than an advantage, and having killing blow isn't any big shiz as well. So why are executioners a special choice when I can get witch elves or even cosairs that can pay back for their points in most combat suitations? Having knights charging at executioners or cosairs makes them pulp anyway.........Some say use executioners as flankers, but when competing choices with shades, harpies, witch elves, chariots and knights, its hard to scratch out a special slot for a mere flanker.
Last edited by Pokeme on Sun Nov 24, 2002 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Pokeme »

Good. This is what I like to hear. Strengths.


I'm glad you're are always thinking on the positive side, but sorry, we don't merely exist to feed you with strengths of dark elves. I think there are more than enough problems in the dark elves list to label it as the worst army list up to date. I read a lot of your posts on WH forum, some of them are simply nonsense (magic items good), others just there for the point of disagreeing (calvery having horses).

I suggest to go down to the petition forum to contribute.
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Post by Scuddman »

You said:
"And there the nail is hit firmly on the head. If the army can be used, and used well - what is the problem?"

To be honest, Cold one knights for me have never ever gotten their points back. I play with them anyways, but come tourney time I leave them at home and take the bolt throwers. A unit of 10 with command (so I can use the fear) is over 300 points. However, by themselves they can't beat most elite hand to hand units because of the way combat resolution works. (Down from outnumber and ranks) You have to give them some help.

Now that doesn't mean you can't use them successfully, because you can, but for their points I can do better with other combinations.

That makes them tactically not very solid, that's why most tourney winning armies don't have more than 5 and use them in a support role, or leave them at home.
It's kind of like using the dragon ogre drake to win combats by itself. It can't, it needs some help. Add to the fact that they're stupid, and they're actually a unit that's terribly difficult to use well, even more so than the wood elf dryads, who also cause fear. It's a disappointment to most players. You can build an army out of empire heavy cavalry, or the khornate Chaos Cavalry army, or the high elf cavalry army, in each case where the cavalry acts as a main unit.
Cold one knights are best used as a support unit. For their cost that's just sad.
They should be named the Cold One Squires, because really, the corsairs do all the work.

Sure you can run them after weak troops, but that doesn't win games, that's the mistake most dark elf players make against horde armies.

You also said:
"Skaven do have big exceptions, but they also tend to kill themselves."
Well, it's still not balanced. If you look at a skaven trooper, his only weak stat compared to a human is his leadership, yet they're ultra cheap, making a rank bonus easy to get. Your average clan rat is leadership 8 as a result. It's true they always had this ability, but their ability to outshoot elves is unbalanced.
And then you add the weapon teams. The ratling gun autohits at strength 4. It wouldn't be so bad if he had to roll to hit, after all skaven have crappy bs.
However, they're autohits. There is no guessing, no roll to hit, no what not like other artillery, and just like other artillery they can misfire too. Not bad for 60 points as an add on to a core choice. So if you take a bunch of clan rats and give them all ratling guns, if you try to flank a unit you get gunned down. Which is why dark elves have such a hard time beating them. You have to go after them from the front while horribly outnumbered and being shot at.
It is true that skaven can gun themselves down. When you have the cheapest troops in the game, who cares? On 2d6 they have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a double. So most of the times they get free strength 4 -2 armor save hits on troops worth 10 points each. On a misfire maybe, MAYBE you lose some clanrats.
Considering how many ratling guns you can take, you're pretty much assured that something will go off and get 2d6/3d6 strength 4 -2 armor save hits. It's a great deal for 60 points.

It's as simple as this...there have been times (usually actually) against cannons and bolt throwers that they have not gotten their points back against me. The ratling gun has always gotten it's points back against me. At least against skaven players who know all the little tricks you can do to get the most out of them.
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Post by Scuddman »

You said:
"Beastmen are something of a quandry. They may have Ld7, but that is generally going to be it - Empire have all sorts of stuff going on for them to help them out."

Well, beastmen do too. Skirmish troops that get ranks, ambush, the dragon ogre drake, the giant (which is actually better than the dragon ogre drake tactically I think) Chaos Knights, etc etc.

You wrote:
"Woah. Corsairs have two attacks (which swordsmen and marauders don't get, beastmen can) and get a good save against shooting (less so in combat). You have a high I that can really give you the edge against your examples. "

Swordsmen, marauders, and beastmen are all cheaper than corsairs. The overall effect when they have the +1 bonus from outnumber is that corsairs have to fight an uphill battle to win. That's why I wrote about them. When you face these kinds of armies, this is what your corsairs have to deal with. And corsairs, for their points don't dominate these troop types. This is why I consider corsairs a non-elite unit despite their 10 points a model cost. They're kind of inbetween elite and average, but don't really do great against either by themselves. And they're pretty much one of our better units.

I do believe bloodletters are frenzy. If you like witchelves, give bloodletters a try. At the very least, you will be different.
As for black guard, they're not all that great. They're all right. Actually, now that chaos has the giant, you can use that as a stubborn troop. Ties up cold one knights quite nicely actually. That's more useful than black guard in most cases, cheaper too. If you want black guard, you should give the giant a try. It can do a lot more than the dragon ogre drake, it just doesn't hit as hard and isn't as tough.


You wrote:
"Errr...no...comparing units is a very dangerous affair. Corsairs have numbers, ranks and more attacks over your average (same points value) unit of CW."

See, that's quite inaccurate. If I face a mortal chaos army, it's going to be chaos warriors the corsairs have to deal with. I can't ignore the comparison because I have to consider it each and every time I play against Chaos. I can't ignore the fact that the corsairs have to deal with the brunt of the enemy core, which often just happens to be chaos warriors.

Now, 16 chaos warriors with shields cost about 270. That's not an unusual number, you'll often see that many chaos warriors.
That's about the same cost as 25 corsairs, which also is not an unusual number. Jeff Leong used 25 corsairs for 2 of his regiments. The effect that happens when corsairs charge chaos warriors is lots of attacks, half of which will hit, but then very few wounds because the corsairs are strength 3. With 3+ save odds are no wounds will happen, which is depressingly sad.

That happens all the time when I play against chaos, so my experience backs up what the numbers say. So pretty much for relatively sensical numbers of models, equal points winds up in the chaos warriors favor. So a smart chaos player who knew this could say to himself..."if I force a one on one matchup with warriors vs. his corsairs, I win."
A smart dark elf player who knew this could say to himself..."If he forces a one on one matchup with his warriors vs. my corsairs, I lose. I need to avoid this at all costs."
This is for the most part true.
This is why I make this comparison...it's something a good player needs to consider before he even makes his first move.
Now, I know my army is made up of mostly corsairs, so I can't avoid this confrontation. So at this point after this comparison I look for a method of attack which will work. In my example above it's the chariot. There's actually more than one way to do it. So, because I understand what my army can do I can come up with a way to attack his army.
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Post by Scuddman »

Finally I get to this question:
"And there the nail is hit firmly on the head. If the army can be used, and used well - what is the problem? "

Well, it's a question of fairness. An elite army needs elite troopers. I have no problems with the core. I have no problems with the fast stuff. It's the elite stuff I'm annoyed at. All the elite troops are specialized, and sometimes flawed, so I couldn't do a bunch of things that other armies could do, and I had to think of creative ways of using them. Every unit can be used. Even the crappiest of the crappiest troops in all of warhammer can be used to some effectiveness if you think it through. That doesn't make it balanced. Just because I can use executioners doesn't mean that it's right that swordmasters are better. It's still unfair.
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Re: Ever onwards

Post by Crimsondeath »

Rork wrote:
Yeurl wrote: The problem is not that they're weak or not, but that they (troops) are too expensive for what they do, making the army difficult to handle against horde armies. It lacks against hvy armoured armies too.


I was under the impression that was the objective in designing the elves in this edition. I think that horde armies will always be a problem for any elite army, but the RXB is an excellent weapon for the task...


The GW staff have made their objective clear enough (we don't want elves to be cheap!), but there is a serious disconnect between the rules mechanics and their ideas. Simply put: Elves are just not good enough (in games terms) to justify their high points cost. This is a problem that all Elves face - and I've seen it referred to elsewhere as the "Elf Tax" :roll:

As for RXB's and horde armies - there is just no way to take out enough of them with a Repeater Crossbow to make a difference. RXB's are really only effective at shooting up fast cav (or other elves) - expensive troops with low toughness and armour saves.
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Re: Ever onwards

Post by Bloodtemplar »

CrimsonDeath wrote:As for RXB's and horde armies - there is just no way to take out enough of them with a Repeater Crossbow to make a difference.


This is especially true against T4 horde armies (Orcs, Beastmen).
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Post by Leithel and odd »

Great thready, it's a shame that there are almost more negative responses than there are positive.

PokeMe wrote:Basically, DEs have a fantastic fluff background, but the list simply isn't up to standard. A quick glance at the magic items section shows how bad they are screwed.


Although I think the magic item list could use a little more flavour, I still don't think it's "screwed", neither do I think the army is.

My positives?

Just one really... I've never had more fun playing any army (including my 4 others) than I've had playing Dark Elves.
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Post by Rork »

PokeMe wrote:Your analysis is simply too superficial.

The problems with Skaven are two-fold IMO:

1 - GW reduced the effect of fire from missle troops in 6th edition, but left the effect of fire from specialist missle units (i.e. warmachines) mostly intact . . . and Skaven have nothing but specialist missle fire, and lots of it. Which would you rather have for 120 points - a unit of 10 HE archers, or 2 Ratling Guns? Skaven have gone from the lowest to the best shooting army in the warhammer world.


Now I have really got to disagree with you heavily here. If anything, it is the opposite way around. Missile troops are pretty much the same as they were in 4th/5th ed, and are quite often cheaper or around the same price.

War machines are now techinically more expensive, stone throwers have got worse, and there is now a decent restriction on the number you can take (not the daft 25% stuff).

PokeMe wrote:2 - Skaven get discounts on virtually everything in the army, ostensibly because there are elements of unreliability above and beyond the norm built in. Problem is, that element of so-called unreliability is extremely easy for a Skaven player to get around in a reliable fashion. After watching ~70 Warp Lightning spells and ~10 Ratling Gun attacks, I've NEVER seen any self-destructive behavior occur from rolling those dice, because simple playing of the odds or use of reroll items keeps it from happening or minimizes the effect when it does. There's no effectve unreliablity in the army. Check that - there's some, but no more than any other army in terms of war machine misfires or LD checks. Its all smoke and mirrors, yet they get the discounts as though it were real. Its the only major mistake the playtesters/GW have made to date IMO.


But wouldn't you say that skaven shooting (and magic) is based in a handful of models, rather than units (in the case of most other armies)?

Warp lightning you can counter. Ratling guns are still tricky, I grant you - but that's the challenge. I have yet to see these puppies in action, so I will defer judgement for now.

PokeMe wrote:Put those two together, and the Skaven can do what the folks at GW tried so hard to avoid in 6th edition - they can create the army that needs to do nothing but sit back and destroy every model their opponent fields at range.


I see that as highly unlikely. Ratling guns still have a very short range, correct? Taking the banner that give you extra movement on cold ones might help.
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Superficial

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PokeMe wrote:Magic? Use magic on them? The best spell vs them, soul stealer has a range of 8 inches, which puts you dangerously within their range range. And don't you forget that we elves have a T3, which makes us significantly more vulnerable to magic.

With Staff of Darkoth, you will have more problem with their magic rather than the other way round.

Anyway, you overlooked more of their overpowering factors eg ambush, skirmishing that would suppress most of the elves advantage.


Black horror? Chill wind (which will go on any ungors first)? Doom bolt?

So against beastmen replace the reapers with another sorceress, and go mobile. The chances of them coming on behind you won't be that good due to their very poor ld...

And BTW, a lot of armies have T3 troops - stop trying to make this into the most crippling disadvantage this side of someone tying your shoelaces together.
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Post by Rork »

scuddman wrote:You said:
Swordsmen, marauders, and beastmen are all cheaper than corsairs. The overall effect when they have the +1 bonus from outnumber is that corsairs have to fight an uphill battle to win. That's why I wrote about them. When you face these kinds of armies, this is what your corsairs have to deal with. And corsairs, for their points don't dominate these troop types. This is why I consider corsairs a non-elite unit despite their 10 points a model cost. They're kind of inbetween elite and average, but don't really do great against either by themselves. And they're pretty much one of our better units.


This is getting depressing. One extra point of combat res does not mean they are automatically going to win the combat - You seemed to be resigned to losing in such cases. They should be non-elite, being core...

And as a core unit they are pretty good.

scuddman wrote:I do believe bloodletters are frenzy. If you like witchelves, give bloodletters a try. At the very least, you will be different.
As for black guard, they're not all that great. They're all right. Actually, now that chaos has the giant, you can use that as a stubborn troop. Ties up cold one knights quite nicely actually. That's more useful than black guard in most cases, cheaper too. If you want black guard, you should give the giant a try. It can do a lot more than the dragon ogre drake, it just doesn't hit as hard and isn't as tough.


???Why are you ever going to put COK's into combat with a giant?

Witch Elves can eat bloodletters any day.

scuddman wrote:You wrote:
"Errr...no...comparing units is a very dangerous affair. Corsairs have numbers, ranks and more attacks over your average (same points value) unit of CW."

See, that's quite inaccurate. If I face a mortal chaos army, it's going to be chaos warriors the corsairs have to deal with. I can't ignore the comparison because I have to consider it each and every time I play against Chaos. I can't ignore the fact that the corsairs have to deal with the brunt of the enemy core, which often just happens to be chaos warriors.

Now, 16 chaos warriors with shields cost about 270. That's not an unusual number, you'll often see that many chaos warriors.
That's about the same cost as 25 corsairs, which also is not an unusual number. Jeff Leong used 25 corsairs for 2 of his regiments. The effect that happens when corsairs charge chaos warriors is lots of attacks, half of which will hit, but then very few wounds because the corsairs are strength 3. With 3+ save odds are no wounds will happen, which is depressingly sad.


so now you have outnumbering - surely that is a huge advantage...

You will have 11 attacks (5x5 unit) to the CW's 5 (4x4), on average you should kill 1. They should kill 2. As you would expect from a purely statistical analysis of WHFB combat, it is a draw. In reality you should win.

scuddman wrote:That happens all the time when I play against chaos, so my experience backs up what the numbers say. So pretty much for relatively sensical numbers of models, equal points winds up in the chaos warriors favor. So a smart chaos player who knew this could say to himself..."if I force a one on one matchup with warriors vs. his corsairs, I win."
A smart dark elf player who knew this could say to himself..."If he forces a one on one matchup with his warriors vs. my corsairs, I lose. I need to avoid this at all costs."
This is for the most part true.
This is why I make this comparison...it's something a good player needs to consider before he even makes his first move.
Now, I know my army is made up of mostly corsairs, so I can't avoid this confrontation. So at this point after this comparison I look for a method of attack which will work. In my example above it's the chariot. There's actually more than one way to do it. So, because I understand what my army can do I can come up with a way to attack his army.


If you are taking on chaos warriors with an equal number of corsairs, you are doing something wrong. Put some DR in the flank for good measure...
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The concept of elite

Post by Rork »

scuddman wrote:Finally I get to this question:
"And there the nail is hit firmly on the head. If the army can be used, and used well - what is the problem? "

Well, it's a question of fairness. An elite army needs elite troopers. I have no problems with the core. I have no problems with the fast stuff. It's the elite stuff I'm annoyed at. All the elite troops are specialized, and sometimes flawed, so I couldn't do a bunch of things that other armies could do, and I had to think of creative ways of using them. Every unit can be used. Even the crappiest of the crappiest troops in all of warhammer can be used to some effectiveness if you think it through. That doesn't make it balanced. Just because I can use executioners doesn't mean that it's right that swordmasters are better. It's still unfair.


Errr...elite troops are supposed to be specialised...

So, a unit can be used...but it's still not balanced. I find this confusing.

And swordmasters are better and more expensive - you seem caught up on these comparisons.
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Freefall

Post by Rork »

Leithel wrote:Great thready, it's a shame that there are almost more negative responses than there are positive.


Hmmm. I was expecting negative comments, but this is falling into the more usual "There are these big problems" routine.

Leithel wrote:
PokeMe wrote:Basically, DEs have a fantastic fluff background, but the list simply isn't up to standard. A quick glance at the magic items section shows how bad they are screwed.


Although I think the magic item list could use a little more flavour, I still don't think it's "screwed", neither do I think the army is.

My positives?

Just one really... I've never had more fun playing any army (including my 4 others) than I've had playing Dark Elves.


Fun, after all, is why we play this game. You guys appear to have a good time playing with the DE.

And I must say, you really do have some good magic items. And an army shouldn't be reliant on them to get the job done...
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

Rork wrote:So, a unit can be used...but it's still not balanced. I find this confusing.


I don't understand what do you find it confusing about? I *can* use Cauldron of Blood but if I really want to win I leave it out every time. It is overpriced and thus unbalanced. Same thing with the Black Guard (expect that the Cauldron is even more screwed as the crew is still mystically arrow-attracting).

Rork wrote:And I must say, you really do have some good magic items.


Yeah, the same six everyone always takes. The rest... well, they might as well have saved the ink.
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Post by Scuddman »

Ratling guns kill the fast stuff...a dark elf army without dark riders able to do something can become crippled. It's dealable, but it's tough.
Also, ratling guns can stand and shoot. Normally stand and shoot is -1 to hit, but ratling guns autohit, so there's no penalty.
I wouldn't say skaven units are based on only a few units of shooting. Every clanrat unit can have a ratling gun. They can field a decent amount. We can too, and that's one possible counter. It's just cheap troops with that kind of shooting makes it hard. Actually, skaven remind me of eldar. It looks like a 40k list. Combine that with being able to shoot into hand to hand, and you can do some lame things with the list, like rat swarms that are unbreakable with ratling guns.
And rat swarm are skirmishers on top for some stupid reason.

Yes, corsairs are good. I don't debate that. I'm just trying to illustrate problems I had as I learned to play.

What's wrong with bloodletters? They're strength 5 two attacks right? Witch elves have problems against high toughness/armor save stuff. Bloodletters are less so. I think you should still give them a try. Would you rather have 3 strength 3 or 2 strength 5 for the same weapon skill? Don't forget that witch elves can't have a hero in the unit. I'd honestly rather have witch elves because blood letters are UGLY, but that's besides the point.

I wouldn't charge cold one knights into a giant. However, during deployment, if my opponent knows I have cold one knights, he can place his giant opposite my cold one knights. As I move my cold one knights, he can move his giant deliberately within my cold one knights so its charge or be charged. The trick to it is to move as close as you can without charging so I can't flee, can't move around, etc etc. It's actually not that hard to do. The counter tactic is to sacrifice to his giant by doing the same thing back(the best way to do it), or deliberately moving away from the giant. Neither of which are always easy to do. Cold one knights are an inch faster, but unfortunately have to wheel. Plus if I spend the whole game running from the giant his 200 point unit has tied up my 300+ point unit anyways. Gotta be careful during deployment...that's why cold one knights are hard to use.

You wrote:
"You will have 11 attacks (5x5 unit) to the CW's 5 (4x4), on average you should kill 1. They should kill 2. As you would expect from a purely statistical analysis of WHFB combat, it is a draw. In reality you should win."

Yes, this is true. I was thinking warriors for some reason, even though I was talking about corsairs. My bad. I think corsairs actually come out to .61 wounds.
(10 * (half hits) * (a third wounds) * (a third not saved) = .61
(5 * (2/3 hits) * (2/3 wounds) * (5/6 not saved) = 1.85 wounds.
If you don't wound you lose by 1, which happens to me 90% of the time, but that's not bad at all. Unfortunately, that's on the charge. What happens if he charges me? Or if he picks another option, like halberds or something?

I have no problems with toughness 3. The elves should be *******.

You wrote:
"Errr...elite troops are supposed to be specialised...
So, a unit can be used...but it's still not balanced. I find this confusing.
And swordmasters are better and more expensive - you seem caught up on these comparisons."

Every unit put on a scale has a weight. This is the unit's tactical use.
However, not every unit weighs the same for their cost.
I don't know about elite troops supposed to be specialized. What do you call chaos warriors? Saurus warriors? Temple guard? Grave guard? They're versatile elite units. Expensive yes, but more worth their points.
Maybe it's because they're toughness 4, so they're naturally more resilient against everything and still have an armor save, and my stuff dies like flies that I feel that way.
I've never really understood the point of executioners, because they cost more than corsairs but pretty much do the same job worse. People say use them against heavily armored stuff but honestly against heavily armored stuff they don't do all that much better because they die easier and have less attacks. <shrug> That's why people think they suck. Against wood elves they are terrible...
I always compare to the two units, because honestly for 1 point more executioners would have heavy armor, making them 12 points a model vs. 13. For one point more having a unit that doesn't strike last at strength 5 ws 6 outdoes killing blow by a lot more than a point. They're effectively strength 5 troops. Just the weapon skill makes up that one point, but not strike last? Damn, undercosted, strength 5 elf troopers. I think executioners'd be better if they lost killing blow and were 10 points a model. Killing blow never does anything for me anyways, maybe that's the dice talking.

Maybe it's just lack of options on games workshop's part. If you look at black orcs, they come with a choppa and heavy armor, but you can give them a great weapon, another hand weapon or a shield if you like. That means you can fit them how you like, give them armor save if you like. Ditto with chaos warriors. I mean, I would be much happier with black guard carrying hand weapon and shield than a halberd, but I don't have that option. Or if I could give my corsairs a shield instead, so they're 3+ save vs. shooting and in hand to hand. <shrug> Oh well, use what you have I guess.

You wrote:
"If you are taking on chaos warriors with an equal number of corsairs, you are doing something wrong. Put some DR in the flank for good measure..."

Well obviously, that's exactly what I wrote. However, you can't dismiss the matchup because my core and his core will clash, and I just need to make sure I give them some help, and he needs to make sure I can't give them help.

Then again, my viewpoint is a little skewed, after all, I've been crushed by goblins with an orc warboss many a time. The goblins are just cheerleaders giving rank bonus and outnumber, and the orc warboss always wrecks my heroes (strength 7..too good!). I'm almost tempted to play vampire counts or chaos so I can do the same crap back.

Would that I could do that tactic once in a while! So much more work to manuver for a combined charge.

Anyways, enough about the Dark Elf problem, it's not constructive, Gav isn't going to do anything anytime soon, and he's heard all my comments already anyways.
Scuddman
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Post by Scuddman »

Wow, we got off topic. Did I really write all that?
shiz, and the grammar and style's poor, oh well, it's a post.

Anyways, positives. The first one that struck me the day I got the book way back in the day was the thought.."Hey, this is a versatile list.!" That's a pretty big benefit people don't talk about. If you play chaos...yeah, you got one army type.
I can do offensive, defensive, shooty, fast, tarpit, monsters, war machines, skirmishers, I can do a bunch of different things. Sure, every other army out there can do what I do better, but I can do all these things. If I want to play like a dwarf, I can. If I want to play like wood elves, I can. If I want to play like Chaos, I can do that too (which is incidentally how my list is designed) The dark elves don't do any of thse tthings as well as the original, but I can play however I like.

With the new garrison and watchtower list, I can do even more types of theme armies. The city guard idea, or the all-cav army. People are too quick to dismiss these kinds of ideas because it's hard to do well (but you can!) and railroad the dark elves into one kind of playing style...the corsair darkrider boltthrower tactic.
Come on people! It's a versatile army, try something different, and you'll be surprised how well it can do. It's not like the all witchelf list is hopeless!
With the removal of composition scores some of these ideas are viable at a Grand Tourney now. Most important, these ideas are not unwinnable.
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Bloodtemplar
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

scuddman wrote:I can do offensive, defensive, shooty, fast, tarpit, monsters, war machines, skirmishers, I can do a bunch of different things.


Yes, but it's a different thing altogether to see which of those are really effective. And I would question the tarpit one, we have only one true tarpit unit and it's damn expensive tar.
Metal for miniatures - plastic for toys.
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Lord girathon
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Post by Lord girathon »

Having played DE since 5th ed, i have witnessed the downfall of our blovedarmy. ur movement is stillkey fanking on dwarveds, etc. use it well. Srry if my typing is bad as my keyboardis broken.

Lord Girathon
“ …he decided to fight like a true elf and slew the weakling Aethis. This plunged Ulthan into chaos, and for this deed the name of Girathon shall be forever gloried in our legends." – Furion of Clar Karond
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Yeurl
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Re: Ever onwards

Post by Yeurl »

Rork wrote:I was under the impression that was the objective in designing the elves in this edition. I think that horde armies will always be a problem for any elite army, but the RXB is an excellent weapon for the task...


Only against T3 no armoured opponents, and you and I know that it's not going to happen very often...Also, I think that "elite army" means that the army will be small, fast, and hard hitting, but above all, it will be reliable and versatile. You know, these two things are not fulfilled by the DE army list as is now.


And against the heavy armoured brigade, you have black horror and dominion - two very, very nasty spells (the second one really annoys my Chaos knights...).


First, you have to get these spells, then you have to get to cast them. Relying on dices (sp?) to do the "tactics" (or the fickle ways of magic) doesn't sound like good advice to me.

Singling them out does mean that your "better" units will not be getting the attention. But KB does have it's uses against 1 wound models - especially those with a high armour save. Get these boys into a unit of knights and the fun begins!


Do you really think they'll get into combat? I've never seen them get into combat (against high AS troops) when the enemy had a slightest idea of their abilities. The heavy armor would help them make their job; as is, they've never paid their points back, not in my battles.

That's interesting. Chariots always seem to be panned by a lot of people, as the knights are "better" - it's good to see this.


Not really. The truth is that most people just own the knights since the previous version, while COCs are "new models" and they haven't been thoroughly playtested. When they realize that they can have 3 chariots for the price of just one 10-men COK unit, you'll see some changes. And they AUTOHIT!!! 1D6+1 attacks each! Really, COKs are just rather stupid to be fielded, when compared to COCs. And if you place a BSB with banner of murder, you get additional charge range, or if you choose banner of salughter, then you get to charge against BIG enemy blocks and still get to win with a single chariot. Tsk. So much fun....:)

Now, I think skirmishers and fast cavalry *always* achieve their objectives. These guys generally go war machine hunting, so your opponent has two options:

Ignore them, and have your war machines killed.

Kill them by diverting firepower to take them on.

In my mind they always do what they should, because either way, something is not shooting at the really nasty stuff in your army.


Not true. When I field my DR or harpies, the enemy will always be fielding his bowmen/handgunners/whatever in front of them, so they are able to kill this threat. And (before you point it out) I may not be able to hold back, because I may be interested in deploying them first so I can "unbalance" my opponent's deployment...That's the only purpose I can really think of DR, other than fast redeployment. About harpies, it is more of a question of taste. A single unit of bowmen can break them by killing just one harpy. In average, if you take a unit worth less than 9 models, killng two in a single turn will earn him back all the points of the whole unit, since at Ld6, they're very likely to flee the battle after that.

Still, I field them because I painted a unit of 8, and they were so well painted that I'd feel stupid if I didn't field them! :)

I have actually written a BR in the BR section, if you'd like to read it, so you can know how I play. After reading it, just tell me what can theis kind of army do that any other army cannot do better. As you'll be able to see, I resorted to every little trick I can think of to beat my opponent, but these tactics or tricks I did use are by no means out of reach of ANY other army. In fact, there are a lot of armies that can do just the same much better. :)

As a final point, I think you said that "using a unit does not make it balanced is confusing" in another post. It means just that if you have to pay a lot of points to get done the same thing that the rest of the armies can do for far less points, then it is nonsense.

A simple example: I find COKs unusable, for some reasons; first, they are unreliable due to stupidity (and this does has costed me the battles sometimes), and second, in order to get to make use of fear as you suggest, I'd have to take 10 COKs, more or less, given the actual size of most hordes's standard units. Still, all I'd get if I got to make them flee, would be to have a unit worth 300+ points stranded in the middle of the battlefield, with at least two enemy units within charge range in the next turn, hence unit lost, or likely. So, I can resort to small COKs units, so I don't cause them to flee, just to hit on 6, but then I can do much better with the chariot and for less points. The point? Leave COKs at home, they're not good for anything. :(

Back to topic: :)
Some good units: Witch Elves; I just cannot leave home without them, in fact, I just can't win battles without them. I need a reliable hard hitting unit, and this one is the only one that fulfills as is due. About this, and frenzy: You can control the frenzy of the witch elves by just placing a shade/rxbmen unit in front of them until two turns before you decide you want to charge with them. Since most of the charges in infantry units take place in the 3rd turn, you can prevent fast cavalry from making them charge with thhis simple tactic, and then taking care of that cavalry with your dark riders. In fact, I did use this tactic in my battle report, too. :)

Spearmen are very good to draw the enemy's charges towards them instead of towards corsairs; the enemy usually ignores them, leaving you with tasty flank charges...Or you make them flee as a charge reaction, wasting less points than a corsair unit costs, then charge with your second line (or shoot them as a result)...

That's it for now, I think. :)
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Scuddman
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Post by Scuddman »

Okay, so some of the theme ideas don't work as well as others. Some of them work just fine though. Some of the things look useless but aren't, such as an all witch elf army. They just involve a lot of unorthodox ideas that people don't use with dark elves but use successfully with other army lists, such as Khorne Chaos.
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Yeurl
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Post by Yeurl »

Agreed; only that DE don't have anything that is clearly distinctive of them. DOn't tell me about assassins either, OK? :)
Watch your steps, my friend, for your way up is almost as fast as your way down, at the whim of the Witch King
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