What is good about the Dark Elves?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Pokeme
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Post by Pokeme »

Now I have really got to disagree with you heavily here. If anything, it is the opposite way around. Missile troops are pretty much the same as they were in 4th/5th ed, and are quite often cheaper or around the same price.

War machines are now techinically more expensive, stone throwers have got worse, and there is now a decent restriction on the number you can take (not the daft 25% stuff).


Cheaper? Perhaps, but hardly to justify the huge drop in effectiveness of shooting for elves. About war machines, I'm not sure. But it surely doesn't apply to skaven. Couple with life is cheap, their firepower is unbelievable.

But wouldn't you say that skaven shooting (and magic) is based in a handful of models, rather than units (in the case of most other armies)?

Warp lightning you can counter. Ratling guns are still tricky, I grant you - but that's the challenge. I have yet to see these puppies in action, so I will defer judgement for now.



Handful of models? I don't get quite what you mean when skaven gets machines that can't be targeted like the ratling guns, high power weapons that can skirmish, war machines that can fire without line of sight.........and poison wind gobs. I can't really see its a handful. Its MANY.

I have yet to see any skaven player not using the warp lightning without comprising on its defence. Just place rat swarms in front and say bye bye to charges.

As I said, life is cheap makes everything even more abusive.

I see that as highly unlikely. Ratling guns still have a very short range, correct? Taking the banner that give you extra movement on cold ones might help.


Without the banner, you are gonna have to eat one round of those shots before fighting. With the banner, you gonna eat shots when fighting.
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Post by Pokeme »

Black horror? Chill wind (which will go on any ungors first)? Doom bolt?

So against beastmen replace the reapers with another sorceress, and go mobile. The chances of them coming on behind you won't be that good due to their very poor ld...

And BTW, a lot of armies have T3 troops - stop trying to make this into the most crippling disadvantage this side of someone tying your shoelaces together.


Surely you won't be thinking of using stuff like chill wind and doom bolt vs horde armies. They are simply ineffective. Black horror? In their skirmish formation you're unlikely to catch many of them.

Poor leadership? So what? All I need is one unit of those beasties is enough to ruin your whole day.

Look, when you're gonna discount the fact that races like orcs, dwarfs, and beastmen have T4, you're not speaking without biasness. Only elves come expensive and weak, so its a factor.

???Why are you ever going to put COK's into combat with a giant?

Witch Elves can eat bloodletters any day.


Same thing why you're putting bloodletters into combat with witch elves.

If you are taking on chaos warriors with an equal number of corsairs, you are doing something wrong. Put some DR in the flank for good measure...



Oops.........Chaos has light calvery and cheap foot troops too.............means you're more likely to be flanked than them.
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Re: Freefall

Post by Crimsondeath »

Rork wrote:Hmmm. I was expecting negative comments, but this is falling into the more usual "There are these big problems" routine.

Fun, after all, is why we play this game. You guys appear to have a good time playing with the DE.

And I must say, you really do have some good magic items. And an army shouldn't be reliant on them to get the job done...


Rork: To your original question "What is good about the Dark Elves"

1) We have awesome miniatures

2) We have great fluff (Evil Elves - how cool is that?!)

3) We require skill to win

...Actually I'm dismayed that that was all I could come up with! Now onto things that I do not consider strenghts:

1) Magic. DE Sorceresses are too expensive to field a lot of them. Dark Magic has some admittedly good spells, but is very short ranged.

2) Magic Items. Some good items stand out from the list (GoP, Seal of Ghrond and a few others), but most of the rest is basically unusable. Compared to most other race's magic items, our 'crap to good' ratio is depressingly high.

3) Characters. Very high points cost, and T3 gives them very poor survivability. OTOH, we are one of the few races who can get to Ld10. Assassin is very overpriced for what he can do, Beastmaster is pretty much broken at the moment.

4) Shooting. The RBT is a great weapon (though expensive), though we are burdened with RXB's which are again, very expensive and generally underperforming. We can't really compare to the 'real' shooty armies (Empire, Dwarfs, Skaven, Wood Elves... and now Khemri).

5) Maneuverability. Comes closest to being a real advantage. Unfortunately we are again trumped in this area by Wood Elves, High Elves (who have no stupid troops and very fast heavy cav), Skaven, Beastmen. Horde armies effectively negate maneuverability anyway. (Actually, horde armies effectively negate shooting too...)

6) Melee. As Elves, we're never going to excel in melee. The closest we come to an amazing unit are Witch Elves - which are fantastic but a) naked and b) frenzied and c) unable to be led by a character. Executioners, feh. Corsairs are solid without being outstanding, but also quite expensive.

Ultimately I think the Dark Elf list is full of fantastic ideas let down by a very poor implementation.

I mean think about it:

Executioners - how cool do they sound? And the miniatures are awesome!

Repeater Crossbows - very wicked!

Witch Elves - drugged, naked and frenzied women - what's not to like about that?

Cold One Knights - elves who've given up their sense of touch to ride a brutal killer lizard into combat. Cool!

Assassins, Beastmasters, Dragons etc. etc.

All these ideas are brilliant, but in games terms they just do not perform as advertised. This is very depressing to a lot of Dark Elf players, who (rightly) expect their list to be on par with others. There's so much to get passionate about, that's why you see so many people getting passionate about them!
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Post by Rork »

scuddman wrote:What's wrong with bloodletters? They're strength 5 two attacks right? Witch elves have problems against high toughness/armor save stuff. Bloodletters are less so. I think you should still give them a try. Would you rather have 3 strength 3 or 2 strength 5 for the same weapon skill? Don't forget that witch elves can't have a hero in the unit. I'd honestly rather have witch elves because blood letters are UGLY, but that's besides the point.


Bloodletters can only have a hero who can be singled out by shooting... (unless the chalice of chaos gets involved).

If faced with bloodletters, I would perfer to take WE -

They should get the charge against Bloodletters
They have more attacks
And Bloodletters have a very poor save.

And you can make bloodletters explode... :twisted:

And even if you have to go into a second round of combat, you have the higher I...
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Question

Post by Rork »

PokeMe wrote:Handful of models? I don't get quite what you mean when skaven gets machines that can't be targeted like the ratling guns, high power weapons that can skirmish, war machines that can fire without line of sight.........and poison wind gobs. I can't really see its a handful. Its MANY.


Question: do ratling guns take tests based on the units Ld, or their own? Because Black Horror could be useful if it doesn't...

PokeMe wrote:Without the banner, you are gonna have to eat one round of those shots before fighting. With the banner, you gonna eat shots when fighting.


Better make sure you break them ;)
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fast cav

Post by Rork »

PokeMe wrote:
Surely you won't be thinking of using stuff like chill wind and doom bolt vs horde armies. They are simply ineffective. Black horror? In their skirmish formation you're unlikely to catch many of them.


But you don't need to. Panic can really spoil their day.

PokeMe wrote:Poor leadership? So what? All I need is one unit of those beasties is enough to ruin your whole day.


If your entire army gets away from your baseline, the beastmen are going to have trouble.

PokeMe wrote:Oops.........Chaos has light calvery and cheap foot troops too.............means you're more likely to be flanked than them.


Ummm...I hate to point this out to you, but DR are far superior to marauder horsemen. Your crossbows have a longer range and more shots than marauder cav (who only have a 5+ save at best). They shouldn't really be that much of a problem to you.
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Re: Freefall

Post by Rork »

CrimsonDeath wrote:Rork: To your original question "What is good about the Dark Elves"

1) We have awesome miniatures

2) We have great fluff (Evil Elves - how cool is that?!)

3) We require skill to win

...Actually I'm dismayed that that was all I could come up with! Now onto things that I do not consider strenghts:


I think that as an overview of how an army works, you won't get many points. Chaos probably doesn't have that many more:

Good in combat
Good at magic
Plenty of variation.


CrimsonDeath wrote:
1) Magic. DE Sorceresses are too expensive to field a lot of them. Dark Magic has some admittedly good spells, but is very short ranged.


Most (not all, I hasten to add) sorcerers are expensive. But you do get +1 to cast (without taking a dent in your item allowance), which is very handy.

Short ranged, yes, but for a combat army that shouldn't be a big problem. I expect you keep your sorceresses on foot within 5" of one your units, correct?


CrimsonDeath wrote:
2) Magic Items. Some good items stand out from the list (GoP, Seal of Ghrond and a few others), but most of the rest is basically unusable. Compared to most other race's magic items, our 'crap to good' ratio is depressingly high.


I was actually concentrating on most of the Chaos magic weapons the other day. Some of them are too expensive, or don't actually do decent damage. The blade of blood is good...but I want to kill stuff!

I think you do have some stinkers, but there are some quality items in there. And virtually all your banners are worth having, and a lot of you units can take magic banners.

CrimsonDeath wrote:
3) Characters. Very high points cost, and T3 gives them very poor survivability. OTOH, we are one of the few races who can get to Ld10. Assassin is very overpriced for what he can do, Beastmaster is pretty much broken at the moment.


Personally, I think the assassin only falls down against Lahmian vampires. Against most other things (including chaos lords :roll:) he can be rather nasty.

CrimsonDeath wrote:
4) Shooting. The RBT is a great weapon (though expensive), though we are burdened with RXB's which are again, very expensive and generally underperforming. We can't really compare to the 'real' shooty armies (Empire, Dwarfs, Skaven, Wood Elves... and now Khemri).


I would hardly call Khemri shooty. they have bows...but they won't hit that much (even if they do fire twice).

CrimsonDeath wrote:
5) Maneuverability. Comes closest to being a real advantage. Unfortunately we are again trumped in this area by Wood Elves, High Elves (who have no stupid troops and very fast heavy cav), Skaven, Beastmen. Horde armies effectively negate maneuverability anyway. (Actually, horde armies effectively negate shooting too...)


But your fast cav are core (HE's is special), and fire twice as many shots as Glade/Ellyrian riders. Your fast cav will have trouble, but you can get the edge.

Horde armies will have flanks. I realise that shooting isn't going to win the day against the horde (except blunderbusses :lol:) , but if you can shave a rank off here and there, it will make your job easier.

CrimsonDeath wrote:
6) Melee. As Elves, we're never going to excel in melee. The closest we come to an amazing unit are Witch Elves - which are fantastic but a) naked and b) frenzied and c) unable to be led by a character. Executioners, feh. Corsairs are solid without being outstanding, but also quite expensive.


Frenzy isn't that bad on infantry. It's when your cavalry units are frenzied that things get...tricky.

CrimsonDeath wrote:
Ultimately I think the Dark Elf list is full of fantastic ideas let down by a very poor implementation.

I mean think about it:

Executioners - how cool do they sound? And the miniatures are awesome!

Repeater Crossbows - very wicked!

Witch Elves - drugged, naked and frenzied women - what's not to like about that?

Cold One Knights - elves who've given up their sense of touch to ride a brutal killer lizard into combat. Cool!

Assassins, Beastmasters, Dragons etc. etc.

All these ideas are brilliant, but in games terms they just do not perform as advertised. This is very depressing to a lot of Dark Elf players, who (rightly) expect their list to be on par with others. There's so much to get passionate about, that's why you see so many people getting passionate about them!


I've seen them work well (I haven't seen a BM in action), but I suppose each to his own...
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Re: Freefall

Post by Bloodtemplar »

Rork wrote:I think that as an overview of how an army works, you won't get many points. Chaos probably doesn't have that many more:


I can't believe you didn't get the point. Look at the things CrimsonDeath came up with and compare them to the ones you presented of Chaos. Now, which one of those has more impact on game terms? DE - Chaos: 0-3

Rork wrote:Short ranged, yes, but for a combat army that shouldn't be a big problem. I expect you keep your sorceresses on foot within 5" of one your units, correct?


Actually, looking at the recent poll we had, most DE players prefer to keep their Sorceress mobile on Dark Steed or Dark Pegasus and I don't wonder.

Rork wrote:I think you do have some stinkers, but there are some quality items in there. And virtually all your banners are worth having, and a lot of you units can take magic banners.


Yeah, I'm sure loads of people here are so happy of having a treasure like Banner of Nagarythe in our list... And for only 150 pts!!

Rork wrote:Personally, I think the assassin only falls down against Lahmian vampires. Against most other things (including chaos lords :roll:) he can be rather nasty.


That tells me you haven't tried to play with an assassin too much. The assassin has absolutely no way of coping with good armour saves. You can always take the Blade of Ruin but then you're stuck with only 3 attacks and you're dead meat after throwing out some attacks in vein. The assassin is best at killing rank-and-file. That doesn't fit his fluff, but hey, Gav knows it best...

Rork wrote:(I haven't seen a BM in action)


Ever wonder why's that?
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Re: Freefall

Post by Rork »

BloodTemplar wrote:Actually, looking at the recent poll we had, most DE players prefer to keep their Sorceress mobile on Dark Steed or Dark Pegasus and I don't wonder.


You don't wonder about what? I suppose if you make extensive use of cavalry, mounting them on steeds is a good plan. But on foot they are easy to hide (and still very, if not more, manouvreable).

BloodTemplar wrote:Yeah, I'm sure loads of people here are so happy of having a treasure like Banner of Nagarythe in our list... And for only 150 pts!!


OK, it is very expensive. But for what it gives it is very good.

BloodTemplar wrote:That tells me you haven't tried to play with an assassin too much. The assassin has absolutely no way of coping with good armour saves. You can always take the Blade of Ruin but then you're stuck with only 3 attacks and you're dead meat after throwing out some attacks in vein. The assassin is best at killing rank-and-file. That doesn't fit his fluff, but hey, Gav knows it best...


Errr...killing blow? Leap out and smack them one.

BloodTemplar wrote:
Rork wrote:(I haven't seen a BM in action)


Ever wonder why's that?


Who knows. I think it could make a good flanking unit, being US5.
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How odd

Post by Rork »

Yeurl wrote: I have actually written a BR in the BR section, if you'd like to read it, so you can know how I play. After reading it, just tell me what can theis kind of army do that any other army cannot do better. As you'll be able to see, I resorted to every little trick I can think of to beat my opponent, but these tactics or tricks I did use are by no means out of reach of ANY other army. In fact, there are a lot of armies that can do just the same much better. :)


I had a look...interesting. I must ask, why do you use such small units of infantry? Your forces looked rather vulnerable if they had been charged or shot at...

Personally, I never take infantry units smaller than 16, and I use Chaos Warriors :) , none of this marauder nonsense...
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Curiosity of the week

Post by Rork »

Cold one knights are too unreliable with Ld8...

...but Skaven are too reliable with Ld8...

Hmmm.
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Re: How odd

Post by Yeurl »

I had a look...interesting. I must ask, why do you use such small units of infantry? Your forces looked rather vulnerable if they had been charged or shot at...


Because the bigger units most people tend to use make the DE slower t owheel, manoeuver, etc, which I see as a real disadvantage. Since DE are about manoeuvering, they must be able to do so, even infantry.

About small units, I tend to have good luck when it comes to panic tests. Besides, with units so small, I tend to have more troops than I need to fulfill my charges. What would you prefer?

a) Bigger units, that give you +1 for CR.
b) Two units half the size, which can give you up to +6 to CR ( up to +3 for neating ranks, +1 for having more banners, +1 for flank charge, since you cannot align two units in the front of the enemy unit, so they slap the side of the enemy unit, and the main unit charges the front, and lastly, +1 for numeric superiority).

I'll take b) any day. Of course, you risk a lot, because if you don't get to charge with both units, one of them will suffer a lot of attrition, but oh, well, better than and dealing blows at I 5 than just taking shots...:)

Personally, I never take infantry units smaller than 16, and I use Chaos Warriors :) , none of this marauder nonsense...


He. Quite expensive units, but they have the armour (and toughness!!) to stay there. DE don't have the armour (or T) to last long when in combat, that's why I tend to use the above tactic...:)

That tactic leads to units deployed side by side, no gaps between, but I haven't ever found any disadvantae in doing so (even less since it was clearly stated that then enemy can't redirect charges against units he could see at the start of the turn!). :)

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Re: Freefall

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Rork wrote:You don't wonder about what? I suppose if you make extensive use of cavalry, mounting them on steeds is a good plan. But on foot they are easy to hide (and still very, if not more, manouvreable).


And when the enemy goes defensive? No, thanks, I'll always mount my primary sorceress for that extra mobility otherwise the high price we pay for our wizards is totally wasted.

Rork wrote:OK, it is very expensive. But for what it gives it is very good.


Simply said, no it isn't. Please, don't try to defend the most obvious faults in the book. 150 pts for banner that makes one unit unbreakable (6" stubborness doesn't reach anywhere) isn't anything to ever think of taking, especially as it is carried by a BSB with T3 W2 and a max armour save of 2+. I'm interested into what unit would you put it?

Rork wrote:Errr...killing blow? Leap out and smack them one.


That's the best shot but it's still a gamble with bets so high that most don't want to go there. I thought the elves were supposed to be a reliable army, oh well.

Rork wrote:Who knows. I think it could make a good flanking unit, being US5.


Over 200 points and two hero slots for something that accomplishes the same thing as a unit of Dark Riders? Please...

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Re: Curiosity of the week

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Rork wrote:Cold one knights are too unreliable with Ld8...

...but Skaven are too reliable with Ld8...

Hmmm.


Don't do that. First you tell me not to compare units of different armies, then you go wild with this...:(

Skaven have the numbers to BE reliable. They don't care if one unit of 40 clanmen flee, that's only 200 points. However, the same points in COKs do make a big difference. Make comaprisons, since you feel like doing so today :) (no pun intended). And I'm yet to see a skaven unit that is stupid, for that matter. DE don't have the numbers, but are unreliable because they have to test for stupidity every turn, not only when they are charged (like happens to any unit that is charged by COKs). I must take 6 stupidity tests, but at most the enemy will have to take (at most) 3 (and I'm overreacting in this case...). :(
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Re: Curiosity of the week

Post by Rork »

Yeurl wrote:
Rork wrote:Cold one knights are too unreliable with Ld8...

...but Skaven are too reliable with Ld8...

Hmmm.


Don't do that. First you tell me not to compare units of different armies, then you go wild with this...:(


Well, I wasn't actually trying to compare units. I was merely pointing out that the dice rolls are exactly the same in each case. People have been saying that skaven are reliable...

I was just making the point that Ld8 is either reliable or it isn't. And considering that heavy cavalry is a good place for a character, higher Ld often accompanies COK's.

Yeurl wrote: Skaven have the numbers to BE reliable. They don't care if one unit of 40 clanmen flee, that's only 200 points. However, the same points in COKs do make a big difference. Make comaprisons, since you feel like doing so today :) (no pun intended). And I'm yet to see a skaven unit that is stupid, for that matter. DE don't have the numbers, but are unreliable because they have to test for stupidity every turn, not only when they are charged (like happens to any unit that is charged by COKs). I must take 6 stupidity tests, but at most the enemy will have to take (at most) 3 (and I'm overreacting in this case...). :(


Clanrats can make a big difference though. OK, it's not as devastating as losing a unit of knights, but if you can punch a clanrat unit-sized hole in their line, you are doing something right.

That still means panic tests for the local skaven units, and whether they fail or not, it is still another notch towards victory.

Why do you say three (I assume you are talking about rat ogres)?
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Post by Scuddman »

You wrote:
"Cold one knights are too unreliable with Ld8...

...but Skaven are too reliable with Ld8...

Hmmm."

How much does a clanrat cost?
If you give them spears, 6 points each.
How much does a warrior cost? With shields, 10 points each.
What's the leadership on my warrior? That's right, 8. And I pay a lot more.

Dark elves pay more points for cold one knights than any other cavalry except chaos knights.

Skaven pay less points for clanrats than any other trooper except beastmen and goblins.

Skaven troopers are not stupid.

Skaven trooper can have shooting add-ons.

That had to be the most biased argument you ever threw out there! It doesn't make any sense!

It's not even like skaven troopers have animosity for their cost.

Look, everything with problematic problems like orcs with animosity are dirt cheap. Cold one knights are a rare exception in that they have something much like animosity (actually worse!) but are extra expensive.
It's as simple as that. Like I said, imagine if your chaos warriors had a 1in 6 chance of not charging. Or if your chaos warriors could only have light armor and great weapons.

You wrote:
"Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 5:19 am Post subject: Frothing Daemon things

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

scuddman wrote:
What's wrong with bloodletters? They're strength 5 two attacks right? Witch elves have problems against high toughness/armor save stuff. Bloodletters are less so. I think you should still give them a try. Would you rather have 3 strength 3 or 2 strength 5 for the same weapon skill? Don't forget that witch elves can't have a hero in the unit. I'd honestly rather have witch elves because blood letters are UGLY, but that's besides the point.



Bloodletters can only have a hero who can be singled out by shooting... (unless the chalice of chaos gets involved).

If faced with bloodletters, I would perfer to take WE -

They should get the charge against Bloodletters
They have more attacks
And Bloodletters have a very poor save.

And you can make bloodletters explode...

And even if you have to go into a second round of combat, you have the higher I..."

That's not the point. You don't get witch elves. You want a frenzy troop, you have to use bloodletters (or khorne I guess, but I meant as a unit). And you too easily dismiss them. Don't forget that witchelves have no armor save, and you get a 6+ plus the 5+ demon ward save.
And strength 5. Head to head bloodletters will lose to witchelves, maybe, depends on who charges who, and witche elves are faster. But against dwarves, cavalry, chaos knights, chaos warriors...anything high toughness high armor..the treeman, the giant...
Bloodletters will do better.

I mean look at this:
"Short ranged, yes, but for a combat army that shouldn't be a big problem. I expect you keep your sorceresses on foot within 5" of one your units, correct?"

That shows a lack of understanding. Dark elves can't do the hide in a woods and blast with heavens. In a defensive list this cripples a sorceress, because she can't run forward. In an offensive list, you have to take significantly more risk. On top of that, she's vulnerable to flyers, and on the first turn and second turn you often can't cast anything because nothing's in range. It's brainless to play a high elf or wood elf mage, it takes a lot more work with dark magic. The short range hampers a mage quite a bit, but nobody every considers that when they talk of dark elf sorceresses. They just say her magic's good. Well, not as good as heaven's that's for sure.

As for the assasin, he will lose to the chaos lord every time. All the chaos lord needs is the armor of damnation and a ward save.
WIth touch of death and dark venom extra hand weapon, I have 4 poisoned attacks at strength 4. If I'm lucky, 3 will hit, but I have to reroll those, so 2 will hit. Out of 2 hits I need to roll a 6! And you have to fail your ward save...Right....
The lord with 5 attacks, half hit, anything but a 1 wounds, no armor save....dead assasin.

It's harsh, but only a moron would fear the assasin with a chaos lord. The odds are in your favor. Hell, the exalted champion could spank the assasin in hand to hand. <shakes head> I would view that as free victory points! He has to roll a jackpot and you have to fail your ward/regen save for your chaos lord to die.

I know, the next time you play, pick out your most expensive chaos warrior unit and all chariots. Those units are now stupid. Just pretend that they're all wearing the crown of many eyes. Now, no rerolling it with the undivided mark or taking immune to psychology, because we can't do that. The chariots and the one unit can cause fear if you like for free. Tell your opponent it's an experiment on the dark elf problem.
On top of that, for specials, you have to take chaos trolls. You only need to take one unit, but the more the better. Otherwise, you can do whatever you like. Play about 10 games, and tell us how you did. You want to know what elite, stupid, and unreliable is like? I don't think you know. So give it a try. Leave battlereports as you go...it'll be a great experiment. And post the armylist and your thoughts. At the very least it'll be entertaining.
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Post by Pokeme »

Question: do ratling guns take tests based on the units Ld, or their own? Because Black Horror could be useful if it doesn't...


They take tests on the parent unit's leadership?

Better make sure you break them


Thats a very decisive statement.

But you don't need to. Panic can really spoil their day.


My whole point is magic isn't a solution.

If your entire army gets away from your baseline, the beastmen are going to have trouble.


I don't get you on this. I only know you are gonna have hell of a trouble when he gets behind you.

Ummm...I hate to point this out to you, but DR are far superior to marauder horsemen. Your crossbows have a longer range and more shots than marauder cav (who only have a 5+ save at best). They shouldn't really be that much of a problem to you.


And hey, they come cheaper! And their core usually outnumbers you.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

scuddman wrote: As for dark elves being an elite army, I don't think they're that elite. Corsairs and warriors aren't on the whole better than say...beastmen troopers, chaos marauders, or empire swordsman. In a one up fight corsairs won't dominate, despite the point difference. It's pretty much true for every unit the dark elves have, that's why it looks like an underpowered list.
If you want elite, look at elite hand to hand: chaos warriors or saurus warriors. Or Bretonnian knights. Or swordmasters. Dark elves can't compare.
If you want elite in a different way, look at elite shooting: Dwarves, empire, wood elves...dark elves don't really measure up.
The real strength of the dark elves is somewhere inbetween.
I don't think it's fair that dark elves have elite troops that are specialized/unreliable and that other armies with elite troops have improved variants of their normal trooper.


I couldn't have said it better myself. What exactly do we do well again? :lol:
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Re: Question

Post by Farke »

Rork wrote:Question: do ratling guns take tests based on the units Ld, or their own? Because Black Horror could be useful if it doesn't...


Ratling Guns take all Ld tests on the Ld of their parent unit (ie 8), and they can't be singled out as a Shooting Target.

Rork wrote:Cold one knights are too unreliable with Ld8...
...but Skaven are too reliable with Ld8...
Hmmm.


You don't see Clanrats costing 29 pts apiece do you? You don't see Clanrats being Stupid, du you?
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Post by Srovex »

Never seen this much quotes in one thread. !eek!
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Post by Srovex »

Why everyone is posting so many times? cant they just put it all in one post?
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A matter of swings and roundabouts

Post by Rork »

scuddman wrote:How much does a clanrat cost?
If you give them spears, 6 points each.
How much does a warrior cost? With shields, 10 points each.
What's the leadership on my warrior? That's right, 8. And I pay a lot more.


Fair point. but DE have Ld8 all the time, and have a fairly pathetic WS4.

scuddman wrote:Dark elves pay more points for cold one knights than any other cavalry except chaos knights.


Granted. but you do have S4 mounts and cause fear. The effect of stupidity can be reduced.

scuddman wrote:Skaven pay less points for clanrats than any other trooper except beastmen and goblins.


...at the moment I believe Beastmen to be somewhat broken, in the same way that the annual daemon list was. Goblins are just trash, though.

scuddman wrote:Skaven troopers are not stupid.


You have 1 stupid unit. That can have a high Ld.

scuddman wrote:Skaven trooper can have shooting add-ons.


Your crossbowmen can have shields. OK, so they aren't great because of it, but it means they are a little less likely to run away. Slightly perpendicular comment, but there you go.

scuddman wrote:That had to be the most biased argument you ever threw out there! It doesn't make any sense!


Not really, I was just making the point that 8=8.

scuddman wrote:It's not even like skaven troopers have animosity for their cost.


No, the army relies on the fact that nothing is flank charging it. Once that happens their reliability is nonexistent.

scuddman wrote:Look, everything with problematic problems like orcs with animosity are dirt cheap. Cold one knights are a rare exception in that they have something much like animosity (actually worse!) but are extra expensive.


But they can offset it. Skaven can't offset the fact that they have something in the flank and their Ld is now very, very poor.

scuddman wrote:
It's as simple as that. Like I said, imagine if your chaos warriors had a 1in 6 chance of not charging. Or if your chaos warriors could only have light armor and great weapons.


It's called frenzy and gratuitous use of fast cavalry :cry:

scuddman wrote:You wrote:
"Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 5:19 am Post subject: Frothing Daemon things

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If faced with bloodletters, I would perfer to take WE -

They should get the charge against Bloodletters
They have more attacks
And Bloodletters have a very poor save.

And you can make bloodletters explode...

And even if you have to go into a second round of combat, you have the higher I..."

That's not the point. You don't get witch elves. You want a frenzy troop, you have to use bloodletters (or khorne I guess, but I meant as a unit). And you too easily dismiss them. Don't forget that witchelves have no armor save, and you get a 6+ plus the 5+ demon ward save.
And strength 5. Head to head bloodletters will lose to witchelves, maybe, depends on who charges who, and witche elves are faster. But against dwarves, cavalry, chaos knights, chaos warriors...anything high toughness high armor..the treeman, the giant...
Bloodletters will do better.


Bloodletters are still only T3 and you have poisoned attacks. I would say witch elves are very good against Giants, by the way - it has no armour and you auto-wound it on 6's to hit. Even against high armour units, you can have 17 attacks in the front rank - that is nothing to sniff at.

scuddman wrote:I mean look at this:
"Short ranged, yes, but for a combat army that shouldn't be a big problem. I expect you keep your sorceresses on foot within 5" of one your units, correct?"

That shows a lack of understanding. Dark elves can't do the hide in a woods and blast with heavens. In a defensive list this cripples a sorceress, because she can't run forward. In an offensive list, you have to take significantly more risk. On top of that, she's vulnerable to flyers, and on the first turn and second turn you often can't cast anything because nothing's in range. It's brainless to play a high elf or wood elf mage, it takes a lot more work with dark magic. The short range hampers a mage quite a bit, but nobody every considers that when they talk of dark elf sorceresses. They just say her magic's good. Well, not as good as heaven's that's for sure.


Notice, that at no point did I say "hide your sorceresses in woods". Keep them between units in the same way that ratling guns hide.

scuddman wrote:As for the assasin, he will lose to the chaos lord every time. All the chaos lord needs is the armor of damnation and a ward save.
WIth touch of death and dark venom extra hand weapon, I have 4 poisoned attacks at strength 4. If I'm lucky, 3 will hit, but I have to reroll those, so 2 will hit. Out of 2 hits I need to roll a 6! And you have to fail your ward save...Right....
The lord with 5 attacks, half hit, anything but a 1 wounds, no armor save....dead assasin.


Not everyone takes the armour of damnation. I would normally take gaze of gods to ward off any killing blows - but you have to have some confidence in the assassin ability to do anything...

scuddman wrote:It's harsh, but only a moron would fear the assasin with a chaos lord. The odds are in your favor. Hell, the exalted champion could spank the assasin in hand to hand. <shakes head> I would view that as free victory points! He has to roll a jackpot and you have to fail your ward/regen save for your chaos lord to die.


You can't regen KB. And in a campaign situation (such as I am at the moment), access to magic items is somewhat limited.


scuddman wrote:I know, the next time you play, pick out your most expensive chaos warrior unit and all chariots. Those units are now stupid. Just pretend that they're all wearing the crown of many eyes. Now, no rerolling it with the undivided mark or taking immune to psychology, because we can't do that. The chariots and the one unit can cause fear if you like for free. Tell your opponent it's an experiment on the dark elf problem.
On top of that, for specials, you have to take chaos trolls. You only need to take one unit, but the more the better. Otherwise, you can do whatever you like. Play about 10 games, and tell us how you did. You want to know what elite, stupid, and unreliable is like? I don't think you know. So give it a try. Leave battlereports as you go...it'll be a great experiment. And post the armylist and your thoughts. At the very least it'll be entertaining.


You know what? Under ravening hordes I did take a unit of chaos trolls (I converted the models too). Now I don't think I managed to use them entirely right all the time - but they key was to keep them near my general (that didn't last long due to his preponderence to go straight through units with the knights) and stay in support. I used high Ld to offset the inherent problems associated with trolls.

The main reason I don't take them now is that they were dropped so I could keep all my knight and warrior units at approximately the same unit strength.

Can I have Ld10 lords too? :)
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Post by Srovex »

It's really annoying.
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Re: Curiosity of the week

Post by Yeurl »

Rork wrote:Well, I wasn't actually trying to compare units. I was merely pointing out that the dice rolls are exactly the same in each case. People have been saying that skaven are reliable...

I was just making the point that Ld8 is either reliable or it isn't. And considering that heavy cavalry is a good place for a character, higher Ld often accompanies COK's.


Not true. The fact that skaven get +X (up to three) for just taking more models, something they'd anyway because they need the ranks to counter their oterhwise "poor" Ld (before they added the rank bonus Ld)
is something that is given for free. tell me how much have the models been increased in points is order to take this into account. To add insult to injury, also consider weapons with S4 and -2 AS that can be added to the unit, benefit from the "added Ld rank bonus", and in all aspects count as characters. You see? Not true.

About COKs having a character accompanying them, well, how many special units in your chaos army do you field with your lord inside of them? I'll tell you, none. Because special are daemons, beastmen, etc. Your cavalry and chariots are core. I won't dare place a character in a DE core unit, too risky due to poor AS. Even for sorceresses, that is risky, even more so than leaving them on their own.

Also, ocnsider this. Even if your cavalry was special instead of core, would you place your most expensive character in a unit that may (or may not) decide to charge at the most critical moment? (The odds don't count, we all know that statistics are there to show that they'll never match ;) ). I guess not. I've never seen trolls accompanied by orc warbosses, for example. No, they'll ride a warboar and be in the reliable hard hitting warboar unit. Do you still this is balanced?

Also, consider that the other hard hitting unit we have that we can rely on, the Witch Elves, for some stupid reason is not allowed to have characters other than assasins inside, so we can't protect as we should (and all chaos players do, for what matters) our sorceresses, while you'll always find the chaos mages inside hvy cavalry or hvy infantry units. Not us, we are doomed to rely on the DR, or take advantage of the "within 5" rule for characters", something that beastmen can take care now with ease.

Clanrats can make a big difference though. OK, it's not as devastating as losing a unit of knights, but if you can punch a clanrat unit-sized hole in their line, you are doing something right.


Whenever you lose 200 points, it sure counts. The problem is, you don't have to field clanrats, slaves will do just as well! And they're HALF the points cost of clanrats! What about a unit of 40 slaves for just 80 points? Come on! sure slaves have WS2, but I wouldn't care less, since I'll still hit on 3+, and you'll hit me back on 4+, unless I'm WS5, not the standard, even for elves. See? And it is not even necessary to resort to special rules to realise tha something's wrong with this.

That still means panic tests for the local skaven units, and whether they fail or not, it is still another notch towards victory.


Which also have Ld8, so what's the point here? I'll be in the same problem if my COKs flee, since I'm also Ld8, only worse because since they're cavalry, and my troops are so expensive (between double and quadruple!!), every time I fail the same test as skaven player does, I'll be losing between 2 and 4 times more points than the skaven player. and we haven't even talked about skaven characters, with higher Ld than 5, which would boost the Ld of skaven even more.

Why do you say three (I assume you are talking about rat ogres)?


I meant three because I was referring to the number of times my enemy will be making fear test during a standard battle, whether it is my COKs who charge or he who charges my COKs. The other 3 turns will be spend wheeling, manoeuvering, or otherwise regrouping/changing formation, most of the time. So it is udsually 3 tests of the enemy against my 6 tests per battle of 6 turns.
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Re: Question

Post by Rork »

farke wrote:You don't see Clanrats costing 29 pts apiece do you? You don't see Clanrats being Stupid, du you?


Well, M7 and multiple (11 without a hero/lord) S4+ attacks on the charge do help to boost up the points.

2+ save is nice too ;)
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