scuddman wrote:How much does a clanrat cost?
If you give them spears, 6 points each.
How much does a warrior cost? With shields, 10 points each.
What's the leadership on my warrior? That's right, 8. And I pay a lot more.
Fair point. but DE have Ld8 all the time, and have a fairly pathetic WS4.
scuddman wrote:Dark elves pay more points for cold one knights than any other cavalry except chaos knights.
Granted. but you do have S4 mounts and cause fear. The effect of stupidity can be reduced.
scuddman wrote:Skaven pay less points for clanrats than any other trooper except beastmen and goblins.
...at the moment I believe Beastmen to be somewhat broken, in the same way that the annual daemon list was. Goblins are just trash, though.
scuddman wrote:Skaven troopers are not stupid.
You have 1 stupid unit. That can have a high Ld.
scuddman wrote:Skaven trooper can have shooting add-ons.
Your crossbowmen can have shields. OK, so they aren't great because of it, but it means they are a little less likely to run away. Slightly perpendicular comment, but there you go.
scuddman wrote:That had to be the most biased argument you ever threw out there! It doesn't make any sense!
Not really, I was just making the point that 8=8.
scuddman wrote:It's not even like skaven troopers have animosity for their cost.
No, the army relies on the fact that nothing is flank charging it. Once that happens their reliability is nonexistent.
scuddman wrote:Look, everything with problematic problems like orcs with animosity are dirt cheap. Cold one knights are a rare exception in that they have something much like animosity (actually worse!) but are extra expensive.
But they can offset it. Skaven can't offset the fact that they have something in the flank and their Ld is now very, very poor.
scuddman wrote:
It's as simple as that. Like I said, imagine if your chaos warriors had a 1in 6 chance of not charging. Or if your chaos warriors could only have light armor and great weapons.
It's called frenzy and gratuitous use of fast cavalry
scuddman wrote:You wrote:
"Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 5:19 am Post subject: Frothing Daemon things
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If faced with bloodletters, I would perfer to take WE -
They should get the charge against Bloodletters
They have more attacks
And Bloodletters have a very poor save.
And you can make bloodletters explode...
And even if you have to go into a second round of combat, you have the higher I..."
That's not the point. You don't get witch elves. You want a frenzy troop, you have to use bloodletters (or khorne I guess, but I meant as a unit). And you too easily dismiss them. Don't forget that witchelves have no armor save, and you get a 6+ plus the 5+ demon ward save.
And strength 5. Head to head bloodletters will lose to witchelves, maybe, depends on who charges who, and witche elves are faster. But against dwarves, cavalry, chaos knights, chaos warriors...anything high toughness high armor..the treeman, the giant...
Bloodletters will do better.
Bloodletters are still only T3 and you have poisoned attacks. I would say witch elves are very good against Giants, by the way - it has no armour and you auto-wound it on 6's to hit. Even against high armour units, you can have 17 attacks in the front rank - that is nothing to sniff at.
scuddman wrote:I mean look at this:
"Short ranged, yes, but for a combat army that shouldn't be a big problem. I expect you keep your sorceresses on foot within 5" of one your units, correct?"
That shows a lack of understanding. Dark elves can't do the hide in a woods and blast with heavens. In a defensive list this cripples a sorceress, because she can't run forward. In an offensive list, you have to take significantly more risk. On top of that, she's vulnerable to flyers, and on the first turn and second turn you often can't cast anything because nothing's in range. It's brainless to play a high elf or wood elf mage, it takes a lot more work with dark magic. The short range hampers a mage quite a bit, but nobody every considers that when they talk of dark elf sorceresses. They just say her magic's good. Well, not as good as heaven's that's for sure.
Notice, that at no point did I say "hide your sorceresses in woods". Keep them between units in the same way that ratling guns hide.
scuddman wrote:As for the assasin, he will lose to the chaos lord every time. All the chaos lord needs is the armor of damnation and a ward save.
WIth touch of death and dark venom extra hand weapon, I have 4 poisoned attacks at strength 4. If I'm lucky, 3 will hit, but I have to reroll those, so 2 will hit. Out of 2 hits I need to roll a 6! And you have to fail your ward save...Right....
The lord with 5 attacks, half hit, anything but a 1 wounds, no armor save....dead assasin.
Not everyone takes the armour of damnation. I would normally take gaze of gods to ward off any killing blows - but you have to have some confidence in the assassin ability to do anything...
scuddman wrote:It's harsh, but only a moron would fear the assasin with a chaos lord. The odds are in your favor. Hell, the exalted champion could spank the assasin in hand to hand. <shakes head> I would view that as free victory points! He has to roll a jackpot and you have to fail your ward/regen save for your chaos lord to die.
You can't regen KB. And in a campaign situation (such as I am at the moment), access to magic items is somewhat limited.
scuddman wrote:I know, the next time you play, pick out your most expensive chaos warrior unit and all chariots. Those units are now stupid. Just pretend that they're all wearing the crown of many eyes. Now, no rerolling it with the undivided mark or taking immune to psychology, because we can't do that. The chariots and the one unit can cause fear if you like for free. Tell your opponent it's an experiment on the dark elf problem.
On top of that, for specials, you have to take chaos trolls. You only need to take one unit, but the more the better. Otherwise, you can do whatever you like. Play about 10 games, and tell us how you did. You want to know what elite, stupid, and unreliable is like? I don't think you know. So give it a try. Leave battlereports as you go...it'll be a great experiment. And post the armylist and your thoughts. At the very least it'll be entertaining.
You know what? Under ravening hordes I did take a unit of chaos trolls (I converted the models too). Now I don't think I managed to use them entirely right all the time - but they key was to keep them near my general (that didn't last long due to his preponderence to go straight through units with the knights) and stay in support. I used high Ld to offset the inherent problems associated with trolls.
The main reason I don't take them now is that they were dropped so I could keep all my knight and warrior units at approximately the same unit strength.
Can I have Ld10 lords too?