Dark elves and the new handweapon/shield rules.

Benji · Post by **Benji** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:39 pm

one of the new rules, and probably one of my favorites, is the fact that the +1 save for using hand weapon and shield can only be used when fighting to your front. it is also something i haven't noticed mentioned online

To me this is huge! we don't often use hand weapon and shield so we don't see much of the downside. warriors suffer but nothing else in the army has this ability. What we do excel at is creating flanking opportunities. dark riders now get a massive boost when flanking 4+ save infanty, going from 1 in 3 saving to only 1 in 6!!

what does everyone else think about this?

thanks,
ben.

Cat-the-odd · Post by **Cat-the-odd** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:03 pm

Well, since our DE are mosly flanking other units, we will profit from this slight change. So the dwarfen Clanwarriors with ha,hw,shd are now a lesser thraet. And all these light armour+shield troops out there will have no save at all against flanking DR spears.
I am a fan of this change, because this rule was quite strong for mass troops like skaven. Now you only have to set up a flank charge, as you would have done in the 6th ed. anyways.

Mornedhel · Post by **Mornedhel** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:06 pm

Cat-the-Odd wrote: And all these light armour+shield troops out there will have no save at all against flanking DR spears.

I´m sorry if I´m overlooking something here, but light armour and shield still gives them a 5+AS, modified to 6+ by the DR´s S4 on the charge. Or does the rule say shields cannot be used at all if flank-charged?

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:10 pm

you can use shields you just dont get the bonus for hand weapon and shield. I think cat-the-odd just did the math wrong

Cat-the-odd · Post by **Cat-the-odd** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:23 pm

shame on me...
Of course there is still a 6+ save left.
I has been a long day...

The liger · Post by **The liger** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:27 pm

This should be pretty good! Loss of save vs flanking and rear charging is really helpful, for Mantis and COKs etc, it helps stop those pesky occasional 6+ saves, and otherwise it lowers their save from a 5+ to a 6+. This is definitely very helpful, and makes flanking even more useful.

Ayeril · Post by **Ayeril** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:58 am

This is one of the good changes. My warriors seldom use the shield+hand weapon combination, so this is a huge gain for the dark elves

Alkkrision · Post by **Alkkrision** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:25 pm

This just came up in my game against Lizardmen today (Solid Victory to the Druchii...mwahahaha). The Lizardmen had their spawning for an extra save, but thanks to my carefully laid trap (involving a lot of flank and rear charges), I was smashing into huge units of Saurus warriors, and thanks to the lack of the hand weapon+shield combo, I was tearing them apart (Alkkrision himself running down the final model on the table).

Believe me the best laid plan of flanking and rear charging is so much more worth pulling off for the Dark Elves now.

The great beaver · Post by **The great beaver** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:19 am

so, Im curious...

none of you seem to use the warriors with sheild and sword right..

why is that and what do you do to make up for the lack of them

also, what about warriors with sheild and spear...if this is a more popular choice for DE then shouldnt we then think about losing the sheild bonus for them...

I have little experience and would love to have your perspectives..

Sybarite · Post by **Sybarite** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:53 am

I guess the reason would be that most people only have a few units of Warriors with spears and shields. I personally like Corsairs, and use Repeater Crossbow Warriors, and only use shields if I can't think of what else to spend points on. :S

We have other units instead of shield and sword units.

R4v3n · Post by **R4v3n** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:24 am

and the spears dont get the +1 save as well. unless thats changed in 7thed.

Fleshcollector · Post by **Fleshcollector** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:16 am

I use hand weapon and shields on DE warriors only when facing low strength opponents but I always take shields for the option.

The great beaver · Post by **The great beaver** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:52 am

R4V3N wrote:and the spears dont get the +1 save as well. unless thats changed in 7thed.

so taking sheild with spears is in case you want the versatility of using the sheild and sword or the spear?

it that it

Fleshcollector · Post by **Fleshcollector** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:49 pm

@ the great beaver: Yes, that is exactly it. Against strength3 opponents I opt for the 4+ armour save, while vs strength 6 opponents I opt for more attacks. This could also change depending on the armour of the opponent, outnumbering ratio, or weapon skill difference. Sometimes, one is better than the other and I like the option.

The great beaver · Post by **The great beaver** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:04 pm

interesting...

if theyre going to negate your saves anyways, might as well get the 2nd rank fighting along with you for more attacks

but if theyre not going to kill your armour save, but theyll outnumber you like mad (goblins) you might want to forgo survivability and try and kill as many as possible, so again the spears

also, if you simply cannot hurt your opponent (too high armour save or weapon skill) then you should try and hold so you might be able to flank them... so sheild and hand weapon?

is that what you meant?

Fleshcollector · Post by **Fleshcollector** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:00 pm

Yes.

For example, against my empire buddy my block of 20 warriors can't hurt his knighly orders because of the +1 save. With their Str3 attacks I use weapon and shield for the 4+ save to reduce my casualties and beat him in combat resolution.

But against his inner circle white wolf knights, I use spears because my armour save is virtually negated anyway. Since I am consistently winning those combats, I would say it works well and I recommend it but remember that all our combats need a flank or rear or both charge. Winning through kills is a tall order and I'd say unreliable.

I am reluctant to be too ridged in this philosophy though because I think each situation is vastly different according to troops, terrain, support, etc.

In general, I'd say at least have the option (for 1pt/ model) and skimp on points elswhere.

Master of assissins · Post by **Master of assissins** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:51 am

im sorry im not sure i totally understand, so say i had a shield and spear thats a 5+ save but if i have shield and hand weapon thats a 4+ right?

so a unit of dwarf warriors shields and heavy armor have a 3+ or a 4+?
also when flank charging them do they lose the bonus +1 or for shield and hand weapon or the actual shield save as well down to a 5+?

if some one could understand, and answer that it would be great. :shock:

Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:52 am

wade wrote:im sorry im not sure i totally understand, so say i had a shield and spear thats a 5+ save but if i have shield and hand weapon thats a 4+ right?

so a unit of dwarf warriors shields and heavy armor have a 3+ or a 4+?
also when flank charging them do they lose the bonus +1 or for shield and hand weapon or the actual shield save as well down to a 5+?

sure it is easy. if you use a shield you gain an extra point of armour save regardless of what weapon you are using. But if you use a Hand Weapon (the regular non magical hand weapon) then you gain an extra point of armour save when attacking enemies to your front.

so a unit of dwarves with shields, hand weapon and heavy armour does have 3+ armour save to the front. If you flank them they drop to a 4+ as they loose the one extra point of save that you get from the hand weapon and shield rule.

Fenix · Post by **Fenix** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:26 pm

And for shooting they dont benefit from it either.
The hand weap + shield combo only gives the extra armour save in btb combat.

Fleshcollector · Post by **Fleshcollector** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:11 pm

My question is: Would the bonus be negated from just the flanking unit OR both the flanking unit and the front unit?

Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:38 am

fleshcollector: just the unit flanking them

Rasputinii · Post by **Rasputinii** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:24 am

I always used the Hand Weapon and Shield combo. Only use my spears against S6+ stuff basically. Elven warriors don't kill things. Although interestingly going 5 wide now means that with spears we have a great deal more potential killing power, so perhaps I will use my spears more often. I would still rather have a block of 16 warriors with hand weapons and shields.

*grumble*

Mornedhel · Post by **Mornedhel** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:36 am

I know this is kinda off topic, but I will definitely use spears wherever possible (ie, mainly in defense, as I rarely plan on a combat I initiated to last more than one round), because imo a 6-wide spearelves unit with full ranks and command can actually hold a charge. That it did even in 6th ed, but I guess we´re going to see larger infantry units in general now, so more people might actually use this.

As to the new rule for HW&S, I do think it will benefit us, mostly. The only instance where I use HW&S regularly is rxbwarriors, and if my units get flanked, I will have almost certainly lost the game anyway. On the other hand, I rarely charge (only) from the front, so units like dwarven infantry suddenly get a lot easier to tackle. Okay, those are still a tough nut, but in general units with HW&S will be easier for us to crush, while our units that use it will rarely have a problem with the new rule.

Viper · Post by **Viper** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:55 am

also remember that you cant use 2nd rank of spears on a unit which is in your flank or rear.

The armor bonus when using a "hand weapon" and a shield while on foot is called a parry bonus. And can only be used on saves caused by opponents to your front.

Duke daedric · Post by **Duke daedric** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:32 am

Well, how 'bout that rumour that only WS4 units will be able to use parry bonus?

Don't really know where I got this one...