No cold ones in an army? can it function?

[Ardude]

exactly what I had in mind, wel uhm......
but you do got a point! compared to most other armys dark elves lack alot.
personally I don't relaly see how people can be so found of cold one knights when the silverhelms are core, have a 1 more movement and cost less.
sure they are good, just not that good compared to the other races.
the whole reason I started dark elves becouse it was supose to be a challange, but you don't gain anything from it.
it's not like they are harder to play then other races, but beter when you play them really well.

I just hope the new book looks good
I heared some rumours on warseer.com and they looked nice.
probably not true as it is still very early but they alwais start play tasting a long time before the book comes out.

anyway, there was a guy there who's brother ( I fought) had connections with gw.

the rumours where:
dark riders can be upgraded ( not sure how tough)
the reaper x-bows could get poision shots for 1 or 2 extra points.
and the most fun one:

all hand to hand dark elf weapons get armor piercing.

it sounds very unlikly but with the last book they also tried it out at test days but it didn't come trough.
and it sounds very dark elf like.

( sorry for my bad English and please don't say stuf like no way those are true etc, cous I am just the "messenger")

[Victor simic]

Agree with many of the arguments against Dark Elves.

Still think you can get more out of them than many people suggest.

There is strong arguments against all WFB armies if you take the time.

I think the COK`s Ld. of 9 compensates somewhat for the Stupidity. I don`t think they are among the weakest Heavy Cavalry in WFB at all, based on their performance in my experience. Heavy Cav with lower Ld. are more likely to run in every case.

I still don`t think sweeping statements about the Druchii being `definately the weakest army` are correct. Never will.

You just can get 4 special unit, so, please, how will you make them "Redundant"?

I`m not going to explain about Redundancy in detail. If you take the time, there are excellent threads discussing it in Tactics, with contributions by far more eloquent people than myself. Believe it or not, it IS possible even with only 3 Core choices and 4 Special limit in 2000 pt. armies.

BTW. I'm also an Historical wargamer, and I laught when I hear current WH dudes talking about "Strategy and Tactic"

I`m an historical wargamer too mate. Great isn`t it ? The thing about WFB that appeals to many historical gamers is the absence of mountains of rules. Mountains of rules can be fun if your in the mood, but the simplicity of WFB is the key to its success. Strategy and Tactics are intrinsic to WFB. You don`t get bogged down in detail, and concentrate ON the S & T. Remember that Chess is probably the ultimate Strategy game and the rules fit on half a page. There`s been countless books on the subject of Chess Strategy though.

Cold One Knights do well in the right hands. They get smashed at times like all units. They still rock.

[Rasputinii]

I love stupidity. I play with a very stupid army. I have a pair of chariots and a pair of Knight units, and Bar my Hydra I rely heavily on stupidity. Don't have a problem, its just personal preference. You need a certain attitude to play with lots of stupidity, but then I have always insisted its all or nothing with stupid units, best way to deal with the problem of stupidity is to take lots of stupid units ...

Ras

[Archdukechocula]

The thing to consider is that, while Cold one Chariots are stupid, they cost only 97 points, Can hit with up to 6 str 5 and 4 str 4, and a minimum of 2 str 5 attacks, have a 14" charge range, a respectable armour save, 5 toughness, 4 wounds, can pivot on the spot, and cause fear. That is a lot of power for 97 points and 1/2 a special slot.

[Victor simic]

You need a certain attitude to play with lots of stupidity

That`s probably what I should have said all along Ras.

The argument for and against Stupidity, COK`s, and the power (or lack therof) of the Dark Elf army, is an endless and bitter one. I definately got carried away in this thread. Apologies if anyone thought my comments too strong.

best way to deal with the problem of stupidity is to take lots of stupid units

That is the simplest way to describe redundancy. Once again, you have stated your point simply, and well. I`m more long winded in my explanations, and as a result, annoy people.

I also take 2 of each, COK`s and COC`s, and find their impact on the enemy outweighs their liability of going Stupid generally. My Hydra makes a regular appearance as well.

There`s something about Druchii and Beasts that I find too tempting to resist. Mabye because it`s the Beasts that sets them apart from the Asur and other more conventional armies.

I just can`t help defending the Druchii when they get slagged off, especially COK`s.

Long live the Witch King, and Praises be to Khaine !

(now where DID I put my Orc Hide saddle and long tined Goad ?)

[Weirdmaster]

With Doom and Darkness and that Lore of Shadow spell (fear into terror), Cold One Knights could be quite the fun unit to use.

But, back on topic, Cold One Knights are somewhat iconic in Dark Elf armies as they are one of two armies that can take them (the other being Lizardmen and Saurus Cavalry are more pricy then ours). But are they a must have? No, probably not. What constitutes a 'must have' unit in my book is a unit, or units, that fit a player's individual style of play. Still, in fantasy, it's amlomst essential to have a big scary fear or terror causer present on the battlefield and since a manticore doesn't have an armour save, this means that most either opt for Cold One Knights, Chariots, Hydras, or Dragons. Used right, such a unit could, theoretically break the back of an army (Dragons are capable of such a feat). But, in the long run, a unit of 10 Cold One Knights with Full Command will still run you less than a Highborn on Dragon (445 points before adding stuff like armour).

In short: Can Cold One Knight-less lists work? Most likely, yes. It all depends on you, the player

[Banshee]

Just a note on the usefullness of CoK. They have what very few other heavy cav have: They cause fear (what is not THAT great concerning their low numbers) and therefor are IMMUNE to fear (now that is great! No more worries about a failed fear test or being auto-broken by ranked skellies.).

[Druchii1988]

I agree with Lud Von Pupper. Against heavy armoured troups DE really need CoC or CoK because besides Execs they are the only unit with a lot of punch (not taking into account monsters of course). I really hate Executioners because they are soooo depending on the dice rolls on the charge that they are less reliable than stupid cold ones. Putting a noble on a CoC or keeping them near your highborn is obviously a good idea. I do hope they change the rule in the new druchii book to never go stupid when charging.

If you really don't want to use Cold Ones, you could try MSU with hydra and a dragon.

can you name one unit that doesn't rely on dice rolls??? I think what people are forgetting is that the Executioners WS5 so the dice rolls in combat are a little more forgiving. Yeah the COK have the same WS but their S5 attack drops to s3 while the Executioners keep going ...

My Executioners have actually mowed through troops even though they striked last. Is it because I luck out a lot with AS with them ... most likely.

I think CoK and CoC are less dependent on dice rolls than Execs. For CoC see Archdukechocula's post. For CoK: they have more attacks (their mounts) + a better armour save. This means that even if they don't do more wounds with more attacks, they are still less likely to die when the enemy strikes back. That is what I meant to say with being more dependent on dice rolls. Execs' second round of combat is not that impressive either because they are vulnerable and usually strike last.

[The skaerkrow]

That's a real shame, because that's pretty much the only thing that works with dark elves

I understand that you have a lot more experience with Druchii than I do. That's why it makes me sad to see you perpetuate this stereotype. MSU is a good option for Druchii armies, but it is not the only option.

[Darkspear]

LIke Ras, I feel that we just have to put up with stupidity. In fact stupidity is wad makes cold one knights so attractive fluffwise, a elegant knights contrasting with a powerful yet brute beast. cold one knights are not so bad, look at it this way, when asur silver helms charge us, they need to make a fear test at Ld8 but our stupidty tests for knights r LD9

Anyway tactical wise, I understand some people feel that the best way to negate stupidity is to simply take more units. This I disagree as it seems that you simply pump in more things to ensure an unpredictable part of the army to work(and when all elements work..its an overkill).

On the contary I feel that the best way to negate stupidity is to simply take it into account in all your calculations and manuveurs such that you will not lose when ur cold ones screw up. This saves you a lot more points.

The most stable S5 units in our army, monsters and execs, suffer from vulerabilities such as low armor(dun think too highly of the hydra t5 mind you...the 6's do come when they come) which make cold one troops so crucial to our army. We can choose not to use them but we cannot deny the fact that even with stupidity, they are our best troops.

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

cold one knights are not so bad, look at it this way, when asur silver helms charge us, they need to make a fear test at Ld8 but our stupidty tests for knights r LD9

True, but we need to take a LD9 test EVERY round. They only need to take their LD8 test when charging Fear-causers (much less often). Thus, in the end, we fail more tests due to having to take so many more. We might fail to charge something as puny as Goblins...

Anyway tactical wise, I understand some people feel that the best way to negate stupidity is to simply take more units. This I disagree as it seems that you simply pump in more things to ensure an unpredictable part of the army to work(and when all elements work..its an overkill).

On the contary I feel that the best way to negate stupidity is to simply take it into account in all your calculations and manuveurs such that you will not lose when ur cold ones screw up. This saves you a lot more points.

It is simply impossible to take into account Stupidity in all your maneuvers to not have it affect your plan, unless you don't rely on the unit to do anything, in which case why bother to have it? This is especially true when you don't create redundancy as you mentioned above. If you only have 1 unit of Cold Ones, what do you do if they do go Stupid? There is no way to mitigate the problem. On the other hand, having other units to pick up the slack if one of the units goes Stupid makes it less of a blow to your plans.

The most stable S5 units in our army, monsters and execs, suffer from vulerabilities such as low armor(dun think too highly of the hydra t5 mind you...the 6's do come when they come)

Using this logic, the 6's will come when making your Stupidity checks. How is it any different? They Hydra is quite resilient...

[Darkspear]

darkspear said:
cold one knights are not so bad, look at it this way, when asur silver helms charge us, they need to make a fear test at Ld8 but our stupidty tests for knights r LD9




True, but we need to take a LD9 test EVERY round. They only need to take their LD8 test when charging Fear-causers (much less often). Thus, in the end, we fail more tests due to having to take so many more. We might fail to charge something as puny as Goblins...

I do not disagree abt that point but i just want to show the cok isn't always dat bad. there are some situation where it helps.

darkspear said:
The most stable S5 units in our army, monsters and execs, suffer from vulerabilities such as low armor(dun think too highly of the hydra t5 mind you...the 6's do come when they come)




Using this logic, the 6's will come when making your Stupidity checks. How is it any different? They Hydra is quite resilient...
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actually i am thinking more about shooting over here. hydras get wounded very fast when being shot by say 20s3 shots a turn, of coz you can tok about counterbatteryfire, hiding and stuff but that is bringing in too many factors into play.