Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:03 pm



Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
MSU and 7th Edition Rules 
Author Message
The Ancient One
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:23 am
Posts: 1624
Location: Not eating a bacon sandwich, near Brighton, Britain
I was wondering what analysis had been done on the impact of the 7th ed on an MSU army. This came about when I had to reassess my other army and realized it did cause some rethinking.

The area I was looking at is the ranking. With a change to five wide to gain rank bonus I wonder how this affects us.

For example, you could easily field a unit of 12 warriors/whatever and get a small, effective unit and still put them in three ranks. Now you are going to have to choose between a unit of 10 in 2 ranks or 15 in three (or keep the 12 and put them in two ranks). This is going to have an impact on either your rank bonus or the number of units you can field.

[Side note - I know we often use DEs 5 wide anyway, but that tended to produce units of 10 in two ranks.]

So? When converting your 6th ed MSU list to 7th ed, what impact have you found?

cheers
Sha'a'alaar


Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:25 am
Profile
M-A-D
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 5178
Location: Melbourne Oz
Post 
Purebred MSU was neve about ranks, so thats not really a problem. To be honest I only see advantages. The new fleeing charges rules makes baiting and all that more effective. Crossfire is again an advantage, and the fact that everything is now 5 wide means that our units can always go 7 wide and be sure to get every one fighting. 7-3 becomes a perfectly vallid ure killy formation, especially for witches where that generates 21 attacks without a champion.

Other then that I don't see MSU really being changed. The principle remains the same nd is in no way dilluted or boosted by the new rules. Aside from the minor things pointed out I don't see any need to change your MSU lists to any significant level...

Ras

_________________
Pleased to be back


Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:38 am
Profile WWW
Death Jester
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:09 am
Posts: 2335
Location: Sydney, Australia
Post 
I think that units of 12 will still be common as they could be fielded 6x2, although units of 14 (7x2) will probably become a lot more common than they used to be. MSU shouldn't be affected too bad, and, after a while, it may even appear to work better.

Sean

_________________
http://warhammerworld.11.forumer.com/index.php


Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:42 am
Profile WWW
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Post 
I agree with Ras.

MSU becomes more viable for 2 reasons:

1) It costs more to field units with rank bonus, meaning that you have a greater points-based incentive to go MSU and you are likely to face fewer enemy units if your opponent likes ranked units.

2) Getting rid of the "redirect" rule from 6th Edition makes it easier to bait-and-fleee and to control where your opponent ends up.

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:16 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Personal Guard
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:09 am
Posts: 834
Post 
As mentioned by Tvar and Ras, the "pursuit into fresh enemy" rules dont make up for the lack of redirect rule, Plus the new fleeing rules make baiting a lot better.

Fleeing got a huge boost in 7th edition, and MSU armies are the best to take advantage of it. And elven MSU armies even more with our great leadership.


Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:06 pm
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:42 pm
Posts: 383
Post 
In 6th ed which i didnt play to much if a unit charged and the enemy unit fleed they can redirect the charge to another unit in range right? But in 7th ed they have to fallow the unit that fleeing center to center right?


Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:32 pm
Profile
Assassin

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:13 am
Posts: 547
Location: MA
Post 
frankthetank wrote:
In 6th ed which i didnt play to much if a unit charged and the enemy unit fleed they can redirect the charge to another unit in range right? But in 7th ed they have to fallow the unit that fleeing center to center right?


Correct: redirecting the charge is no longer an option, which is why tactics that relied on 'bait' units (such as MSU) are now much easier to execute: you no longer have to worry about having the follow-up units just far enough away so they can't be charged on the redirect.


Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:10 pm
Profile
Renegade Reaver
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:21 pm
Posts: 1612
Location: Regina,Saskatchewan,Canada
Post 
I hate to say this...but to me I think MSU has been nerfed...

The reason I say this is that you can actually use small units to your opponents disadvantage now. Any small archer unit or elite unit can easily be smashed by a good charge. This will usually lead to some sort of overrun charge...which can end up with a another round of combat in the SAME turn!!!

I use this to great effect with my Shadowblade(I don't take offensive magic) I put him in a unit of 10 archers that is sitting next to another small unit or Fast CAvalry unit...bamn...two units gone in the first turn.....it sucks for my opponent so bad...because after that it can happen again...

Anyways that is an example of how I pick on puny MSU armies....

The main reasons I do not think they work are...

-Ranks of 5 required
-Overkill and overrunn rule
-It is useless unless you have the Empire Detatchment rule
-It is easier to panic small units causing a chain reaction
-The Crossfire Rule....that one really kills MSU...
-Fast Calvary are too good at picking off small units now

Now I think it would be blunt to say that it can't work...really...for some armies I can see it still happenning..like Dwarves and Wood Elves....for some reasons I can see it being nothing other than a huge mistake once Close Combat is begun and units begin fleeing.

That is my opinion. IT works for some armies and not others.

_________________
The Ark of Exile-Lord Katan's Renegade Reavers 2k


Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:01 pm
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:51 pm
Posts: 188
Post 
re-read the MSU basics then, msu has strenghts in a different way, since for example you charge and kill(and most good msu generals just flee) and turn after you are double/flankcharged


Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:08 pm
Profile
Renegade Reaver
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:21 pm
Posts: 1612
Location: Regina,Saskatchewan,Canada
Post 
Well I tend to think I am an alright general...

I think it can work and it can't...there are hundreads of variables of course. It is also affected greatly by the terrain and table size.

If was I gonna play someone using MSU and I knew they were likely gonna use the flee and bait technique I could easily find ways around those units to catch them in a crossfire with my Harpies and Dark Riders. I coudl also shoot those 2-3 units down and throw in Shadowblade to just make a mess of it...

I like the idea of using units with ranks of 7. Most players are bearing down and sticking with the ranks of 5. A unit of say 14 Witch Elves with Full Command, MAnbane and the STandard of Slaughter is quite able to take out a unit of 20-25 core infantry troops simply because of the devastating amount of attacks. But is it reliable? Not really. You pretty much have to play perfect to get a unit like that to hit solid.

I am not really trying to argue...just pointing out some weaknesses of the idea...there are good sides and bad sides...

_________________
The Ark of Exile-Lord Katan's Renegade Reavers 2k


Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:16 pm
Profile
Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 168
Location: U K
Post 
Quote:
-Ranks of 5 required
-Overkill and overrunn rule
-It is useless unless you have the Empire Detatchment rule
-It is easier to panic small units causing a chain reaction
-The Crossfire Rule....that one really kills MSU...
-Fast Calvary are too good at picking off small units now


I can only see ranks of 5 as an advantage. Big CR blocks will cost even more now, and thus they will have (even)less units to ours.

Overkill and overrun rule is less of a problem for MSU! I mean most units are worth 90-150 pts. You wont lose THAT much from it, unlike when you do it to the opponents big blocks.

3rd point is pretty crap. *EDIT* Oh and you contradict yourself by saying dwarves and other armies say it after saying that its useless without dettachments.

Although it is easier to panic little blocks, it has a smaller reaction on the table compared to a big 300+ point unit pannicking.

The crossfire rule does not kill MSU at all! If anything it makes MSU so much more of a viable option. We''ll have many more units and therefore will be able to use it more.

Fast cavalry can be dealt with by our own, or in other similiar ways. They really wont effect MSU that much.

Most bad things about MSU are equalled by the good things. So its just as viable in 7th ed. (perhaps more!).

_________________
"Once i felt the tenderness and love of a warm, caring family, but they are gone. Whether they still live or not is of no importance, for emotion is a luxury that has long since been lost to me."


Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:20 pm
Profile ICQ
Malekith's Personal Guard
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:09 am
Posts: 834
Post 
You don't get a free round of combat with your shadowblade, unless you have a second unit already lined up to fight their second unit, but they have not fought their round of combat yet.

If an MSU army allows you to get harpies or DR behind their lines they have really messed up. Exspeically if it is a Dark Elf list. I can't imagine someone succeding in such a maneuover agaisnt Druchii, we do MSU better then anyone.

Then if the do succed i loose 10% of my army at most, and the unit i baited is probably worth more.


Last edited by Zeth on Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:19 pm
Profile
M-A-D
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 5178
Location: Melbourne Oz
Post 
Agrees with Grogs's point and Zeb's rule clarification. MSU only gets better, infact so much better I am looking into Saurii MSU for some gits and shigges.

Ras

_________________
Pleased to be back


Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:22 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 1135
Location: USA
Post 
Ras, that's not Grogs even though it's his avatar.

For 7th edition MSU, should one go with warriors or corsairs? I'm thinking warriors are still a better option because they're cheaper, but maybe I'm wrong.

_________________
The artist formerly known as Maedhros.

|/^^^^^^^^^^^^^\ |______
|The Pimpmobile runs | |||'""|'"\___,
|over Bunny and Birdyl l||__|__|__|)
|(@)(@)"""""""""""""(@) (@)--------(@)


Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:21 am
Profile
Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 168
Location: U K
Post 
Hey forgive me(im a shade, reason enough).

On the point about warriors and corsairs, I think corsairs are a really good unit for MSU. They can always kill things in 7 wide form better than warriors can, but warriors are important for fire power and cheap baiting, flanking units. They pretty much have a different role in MSU, as they do in a normal dark elf list.

_________________
"Once i felt the tenderness and love of a warm, caring family, but they are gone. Whether they still live or not is of no importance, for emotion is a luxury that has long since been lost to me."


Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:37 pm
Profile ICQ
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Post 
I think you should use corsairs since they are more killy. Good bait also needs to pose a theat of some sort to the enemy in order to entice the enemy to take the bait. Small units of warriors don't really fit that description.

I don't not think small warrior units really belong in an MSU army--unless they are small units of crossbowmen if you want a little bit of missile support.

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:30 pm
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 16 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software