Dragon army principles

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Dyvim tvar
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

I try to get one unit on a hill in 2 ranks and put the scroll-caddy there. The second generally strings out to maximize shooting. Both units will re-form into 3 ranks if it looks like they are needed in combat. But if charged by something really nasty, I'll flee rather than give up the banner by losing combat.

If I have o hills available, I will generally deploy both units 10-wide with 5 in the back rank.
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Post by Agifem »

I'm noticing a total lack of big static blocks of troops (20 spearelves with standard and musician, for example). Is this a necessity of a dragon army, or simply an MSU/MSE choice ?

If i haven't already said it, thanks again for the replies, this is helping me immensly :D
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Post by Mutator »

Agifem wrote:I'm noticing a total lack of big static blocks of troops (20 spearelves with standard and musician, for example). Is this a necessity of a dragon army, or simply an MSU/MSE choice ?


I've used static CR blocks in conjunction with a dragon. Classic hammer and anvil strategy. I'm not saying it is ideal, just that I've tried it and seen it work. Sufficient ranged attacks force the enemy to close with the blocks, whilst the dragon and dark riders do their thing.
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Post by Opera of death »

I don't have enough room in my 2000/2250 point army lists for static CR blocks when I put everything else in my army. I use shooting to support my attacks and to peel away enemy support, and I cannot have both enough shooting and enough blocks.
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Post by Mutator »

To have enough shooting and blocks you'll find that you wont have anything else hard hitting except the dragon. No chariots, no CoKs, nothing. Like I said, it isnt ideal, and certainly doesnt possess redundancy.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Agifem wrote:I'm noticing a total lack of big static blocks of troops (20 spearelves with standard and musician, for example). Is this a necessity of a dragon army, or simply an MSU/MSE choice ?


It's not a necessity. Sometimes I go without my crossbowmen and take units of 20 spearmen with command instead. They are relatively cheap units for what they do, so they can be good in a dragon-based army. But as others have points out, when you have a 500+ point model in your army, it forces you into some hard choices -- you can't have everything.
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Post by Dancingpigeon »

I've found this thread interesting, especially considering I am going to take a Dragon army to GT this June/July (whenever it is).

I was already considering taking a Noble on Peggy, but its a tough choice between him and just the traditional Dark Steed. March blocked, yes, but I've found in 1000pt game at least it really doesn't interfere with him killing Skirmishers/Fast Cav/War machines on the second turn. And the risk of having his mount shot out from under him really makes me question the choice.

Question- is a Caddy really necessary in a list where we're already tight with points?

Also- what would be the ideal equipment configuration now that SoC and Albion items are out for the majority of us? Lance, Shield, Blood Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Crown of Black Iron? Lifetaker? Probably best saving the 30pts.

I must say, Dyvim, I really, really like that list. You wouldn't mind if I borrow some principles from it? I like the 2 RXB Blocks, I'd probably switch the Dark Riders around a little (2 w/ RXB, 1 w/o) and perhaps change 2 Chariots for a unit of 6 Cold One Knights.
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Post by Agifem »

DancingPigeon wrote:Also- what would be the ideal equipment configuration now that SoC and Albion items are out for the majority of us? Lance, Shield, Blood Armour, Sea Dragon Cloak, Crown of Black Iron? Lifetaker? Probably best saving the 30pts.


An excellent topic on that matter here.

Thanks everyone for the answers. I'll consider it all for my next dragon army.
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Vampire Counts : Victories : 11. Draw : 2. Defeats : 5.
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Gnoblars : Victories : 1. Draw : 0. Defeats : 1.

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Post by Dyvim tvar »

DancingPigeon wrote:I was already considering taking a Noble on Peggy, but its a tough choice between him and just the traditional Dark Steed. March blocked, yes, but I've found in 1000pt game at least it really doesn't interfere with him killing Skirmishers/Fast Cav/War machines on the second turn. And the risk of having his mount shot out from under him really makes me question the choice.


In smaller games, the Dark Steed is a fine mount for a noble. You have more space to move around in. But in larger games, the enemy has more stuff to throw in your path and block access to war machines. The pegasus can hop right over that stuff. Also, since the pegasus is not a large target, you can keep the mount alive by using harpies as a screen. I find that frequently my opponent shoots my harpies, and that just serves to open up the charge path for the pegasus behind. But if he doesn't shoot the harpies, they can fly in and do the job on a war machine themselves.

Question- is a Caddy really necessary in a list where we're already tight with points?


Yes. The ability to shut down a key spells at critical times is definitely worth it -- at least if you are building a tournament army. I have seen a fair number of tournament dragon-armies without scrolls, but I have never seen them do well.

I must say, Dyvim, I really, really like that list. You wouldn't mind if I borrow some principles from it?


Go for it -- that's why I posted it. I've run it a couple times with knights instead of 2 of the chariots (I only had 2 painted at the time), and it still worked well.
Last edited by Dyvim tvar on Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dancingpigeon »

Cheers for the answers to my questions.

I'll get right on modeling up a peggy Noble asap. Your reasoning makes sense and I'll be sure to try it out. What about kit? Enchanted Shield and Seal of Ghrond? or Blade of Ruin? Lifetaker & Blood Armour? The first one stands out as being the most efficient, but the others are quite useful in other circumstances.

As for your list, do you think the Chariots really are that much better then the Knights? I've found, mainly due to poor planning on my own part, that my Chariots can sometimes flee through my own lines. Also, having to test on only leadership 8 most of the time will be a pain- CoK's seem better when your general is playing away from the front line. CoC's give you more threats for your dollar, but a small injection of reliability may be a bit more beneficial in the list, not to mention the ability to have a standard and warbanner for some always useful static combat res.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Since points tend to be tight, I go with Seal of Ghrond and Enchanted shield on the pegasus noble. I would really love to give him Lifetaker, but don't know what I would drop to get it. Blade of ruin is a nice item, but even with it charging a unit of nights is no sure thing, so I don't take it on a pegasus noble.

The 2 extra chariots versus knights is a bit a toss-up. You can get a unit of 5 knights with the Warbanner for 6 points less and I think it is about equally effective as the 2 chariots. The two chariots do give you one more unit in deployment, but that can be both a good thing and a bad thing since your opponent can end up getting the +1 for first turn.

People tend to be a lot more afraid if they see 4 chariots on the table, and that can distract some attention from the dragon.

It also gets me called a cheesy bastard.
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Post by Dancingpigeon »

It also gets me called a cheesy bastard.

Haha

Alright, I only ask because I currently only have 2 Chariots :P

I'll play around with somethings and let you know how it goes, cheers for the help.

EDIT: I'll just throw in here, what you said is actually an important point for a tournament army. You might get better comp scores with the CoK's then the CoC's simply because when people see 4 of the same unit they just assume its cheese.
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Post by Mutator »

I think you are now getting into a chariot vs cavalry comparison.

It is always going to depend upon your own preference.

Anyways, you've considered some of the main points. Also consider that for every wound those T3, 2+ save cavalry suffer, you are down that number of attacks (and unit strength). Conversely, your T5 4+(?) save chariot has to lose all its wounds before being rendered effective. Admittedly a moot point where S7 is concerned...;)

Also consider marching vs not marching. Wide frontage vs narrow frontage. Wheel vs pivot. Charge/pursue through terrain/obstacles vs rather not :) Joined by mounted characters vs can never be joined. Assuming similar expenditure, one deployment vs two. The list goes on...
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Post by Dancingpigeon »

I didn't intend on going into further depth on it, and it was merely a question in reference to building a list focusing around a Dragon rider- more specifically the example list Dyvim posted.

I think we're all aware of the many advantages and disadvantages relating to CoC's vs CoK's. The point about army composition points is a valid one in reference to tournament armies, though.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

As a bit of a side note, the big (94 players) Indy GT Tournament my local gaming group is running is coming up in April -- the Quake City Rumble in San Francisco, California. Army lists were due last week, and I am one of the people charged with reviewing the legality of the lists submitted.

Of the lists submitted (there are a few people who are late) there are 5 Dark Elf players (including me). Those 5 armies include 1 Cult of Slaanesh list, 1 list led by a High Sorceress, and 3 lists with Dragons!!!

They really seem to be proliferating these days. I hope I'm not to blame . . .

Also -- I linked to this thread from the Hall of Fame. I think we have some good content going here and it's a topic that a lot of future visitors to the site will probably be interested in.
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Post by Dancingpigeon »

Just realised the list you posted is 2250, so I'll need to trim some fat somehow. As much as I love them, it may require a reworking of the core choices, and possibly a reduction to 3 Chariots (so no CoK's :(). I can't see the characters changing, and the reapers are useful if nothing else.

This is probably something for a different thread though :P
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Post by Rasputinii »

This mistake lots of people make when it comes to Dragons is narrow mindedness. Dragons don't restrict you to doing anything in particular. You just have to bear in mind that 500-600 pts of your army is going in to them. I played a list for a little while that had a Dragon, and was otherwise a quasi-defensive list. It had Reaper, Spear Elves, RXB elves, a pair of casters and some chariots. It was a succesful little list. I didn't really like it mind. The point is you can do more then you think with the Dragon. It completely depends on you, the player, and what you want to do with both your dragon and your army list. The Dragon is such a powerful, tough and fast little bit o' nasty that it can be the boost to many different sorts of list.

The only thing I would suggest is to maximise threats within your list. If your Dragon is the only worth shooting at then its going to be shot, and thats of no use to you if its drawing of fire power is not helping something more fragile survive, which is often why the Dragon lends itself better to the offensive type list. This is why things like 4 Chariots, or Hydras or plenty of harrasment troops are very handy. Its all up to you though. Dragons are bloody tough, and lots of lists just don't have a way of bringing them down, especially around the 2k mark. This means you can effectively use them with imppunity in whatever list you want. Something like a woody list or something like a bret all cav army has very little to pull that dragon down, so using one in conjunction with an infantry legion can be very effective.

As with everything it all relies on the context and environment in which you play and the sort of game you as an individual likes to play.

Hope that helps.

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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

Welcome back, Ras. A dragon forces your opponent 2 ways to try and deal with it which gives you a lot of varying options. I use a Quasi-Defensive Dragon list and it gives your opponent an option to try and take the dragon in a favourable position whilst your opponent concentrates on the rest of the army or visa versa.

Combat support is the most vital support and me and Lichar were having a discussion and 2 chariots and 5 CoK’s with a Std/Warbanner is the best option.

cheers rob
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Post by Haplo »

RasputinII wrote: Something like a woody list or something like a bret all cav army has very little to pull that dragon down, so using one in conjunction with an infantry legion can be very effective.
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It's a bit of topic but when facing brets with a dragon always have in mind that he can have the horn that prevents flying for a turn. Using this he can trap your dragon on the ground and you won't be able to charge over his unit that has now turned to face your dragon that won't even be able to run away with only M6 :(
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Post by Mutator »

In a vaccuum, sure. Bret player has to consider what *else* he'll be exposing his flank to if he turns to face that dragon.
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