Dragon army principles

Agifem · Post by **Agifem** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:18 am

I'm trying to get straight the dragon army composition straight. Essentially, the great outlines the army must have in order to properly use the dragon's strengh. For example, i know i need lots of close combat units, even better with MSU/MSE, no magic and little shooting in order to properly use the cauldron. What are the guidelines for a dragon army ?

Ehakir · Post by **Ehakir** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:40 am

You have two versions; the mobile dragon army, and the defensive dragon army.
In the mobile army the dragon plays a bigger role than in the defensive. In the defensive army you take it as support, besides 4 RBT, some units of crossbowmen, and static blocks of infantery.
In the mobile army, you can decide to take a Beast Army (Dragon, Manticore, harpies, two War Hydras, some chariots or something), or a non-beast army. This includes the Dragon as hardhitter together with sometimes a manticore, and very much DR's. More than you have ever fielded. Such as 1 Dragon, 1 Manticore, and 10 units of Dark Riders. This way you have a very mobile army, and can handle with anything.

Hawillis · Post by **Hawillis** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:39 am

I use a manticore not a dragon, so some of the stuff I will say might not be the best. ie. Im far more scared of missile fire than a dragon would be!

But I prefer a more defenecive stance, so I pack in some shooting. COC help counter charge. I like to keep my general need my troops if possible, but I keep him on a flank to threaten a US5 large target, flying charge. If often forces my opponont to bunch his troops together and this helps my fast cav get around his flanks.

Opera of death · Post by **Opera of death** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:47 am

A Dragon is a huge threat and an enormusly powerful support unit. Most of the time, it is better as a threat rather than when it is actually fighting because as a threat it has the potential to do a great many things, when fighting, the options are more limited. AFAIAC, the 'trick' is to know when to convert from threat to fight, usually at the critical time and critical location, which you have set with the rest of your army.

Agifem · Post by **Agifem** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:26 pm

So, basically, just a huge support unit ? So it can go with pretty much any army ?

Fenix · Post by **Fenix** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:53 pm

Indeed

Allthough he is a bit pricey and screaming shoot me. Which is good for the rest of your army offcourse. As Opera sed, the problem is to use it correctly.

Opera of death · Post by **Opera of death** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:23 pm

While it can go in any army, some armies will be better than others. If the dragon is the only threat, it is likely to be shot to bits, so while it is dying bravely, your army had better be getting some advantage.

I think that the Dragon needs to be supported by other flyers; heroes and/or another flying character such as a noble on DP. I think that a Dragon works better in a mobile army rather than in a static army. Although it is a support unit, it needs to have the right units to support. If you look in battle reports, you can look at my 'extreme' dragon armies and look at what Dyvim Tvar has to say on the subject. I aggree with nearly everything he says on the subject (so he MUST be right

)

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:29 pm

Yeah, you gotta support the Dragon no matter what role you want it to fulfil 'cos if he's alone, the enemy will be swarming all over it. I agree wholeheartedly with OoD's comment of its function as a threat instead of a fighter, and that's why I advocate a defensive set-up for the HB on top.

Some take only the Enchanted Shield, believing it is most cost-effective (parts of it have to be the sweet Monster Reaction table and its US6). Others advise the full defensive set-up (AoES + CoBI/MSoL + lance).

I played it in a mobile army - the Dragon-DarkRider combo is too sweet

I often feel the Manticore is too vulnerable to be on the attack with the Dragon. The fact that the MantiBM and the Dragonlord take up all slots combined also strikes me as awkward. Ironically, I opted for a Peggy Noble as support - waaay cheaper and they can cause Terror with Deathmask if you really want it.

And seconded: believe what Dyvim Tvar says.

Hawillis · Post by **Hawillis** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:30 pm

Am I correct in syaing that a dragon can only pivot once in its movement?

this means that unless at the start of my turn I happen to be facing the correct direction I cannot:

a) pivot to face the side of an enemy unit
b) fly to the enemy units side.

c)breathe fire over them and threaten a flank charge next turn?

Attempted diagram:
START

OOOO OOOO OOOO Ois enemy (in uinits)
D is dragon and line is direction
he is facing

i
D

END

D- OOOO OOOO OOOO

Opera of death · Post by **Opera of death** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:46 pm

I don't have my book with me, but I believe that it can pivot many times in its move. Only when it charges is it's ability to pivot limited.

The_everchosen · Post by **The_everchosen** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:05 pm

If you give your highborn a ward save, it is conferred onto the dragon, so use the 4+WS item!

Druchii1988 · Post by **Druchii1988** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:19 pm

The_Everchosen wrote:If you give your highborn a ward save, it is conferred onto the dragon, so use the 4+WS item!

I don't think so Everchosen (unless I am wrong about what 'to confer' means).

The_everchosen · Post by **The_everchosen** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:30 pm

I didn't believe it either. Someone did it to me at the GT. A ref was called and he sided with my opponent. Later at a seminar with Alessio Cavatore someone else who was on the wrong end of the rule asked him what Games Dev was playing at, and he basically said that it was a mistake on their part, but they had no intention of rectifying it.

And no the magic item was not the tzeentch one that specifically states it affects the mount.

Lowcash · Post by **Lowcash** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:51 pm

I have been playing as thought the ward save only affects the character, seems kind of cheesey if it word on the dragon as well. If it truly does protect dragon and rider I would be using it in all my lists.

Casual malevolence · Post by **Casual malevolence** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:55 pm

I've used the Dragon/Manti combo to great effect; anything that both of them charge simultaneously, is destroyed (through combat rez). It's forced my usual opponents (Tzeentch and Ogres) to adopt a different army; my best friend who runs Ogres is now packing three units of five leadbelchers, just to keep the flying monsters on my side of the table.

However, the previous discussion about the vulnerability of the Manti is I fear valid; for the first time, next game I'm going to leave it at home and try to position the dragon for a charge timed w/ the CoC or CoK.

The_everchosen · Post by **The_everchosen** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:57 pm

Its not a way to make friends, its real rules lawyering - because on one page it says something to the effect of 'the rider and mount count as a single model' and something in the WS rule. Suffice to say unless there's a ref I wouldn't try it because although it is to the letter of the rule, its not in the spirit of the rules.

A lot of people were very annoyed. (Then someone asked about the fact that it is impossibe to get the fighting up a hill bonus with the hills provided at the GT because the troops are 'on the same level'

) Therew were several, very angry WH players at that seminar.

Agifem · Post by **Agifem** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:27 am

Thanks everyone for the great additions on the topic

I'm considering using a dragon rider, or a sorceress on manticore (yes, i've read the fatastic topic on that matter), and i wanted to know the kind of army that they would be best used with.

Opera of Death, do you have links to those topics you and Dyvim Tvar agree about ? I've browsed through a few dragon army lists, but i never saw any comments that could be used as generic rules for the kind of army around it.

Opera of death · Post by **Opera of death** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:15 am

I'll look for them. I remember them as comments to other dragon lists.

Hawillis · Post by **Hawillis** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:57 am

What would you do if you were playing a monesterous flying thing against beastmen? With all their skirmishers, its hard to flank them!

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:22 pm

Charge/reap the skirmishers with Dark Riders. Don't forget the Dragon is not alone in this (at least it shouldn't be.)

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:34 pm

Here are my general principles regarding an army featuring a Dragon:

1) Have multiple combat threats.

This is so that your enemy can't just focus on taking down the dragon without being punished for it. And if the dragon is taken down, it's not the end of the world for your army. Because they are so cheap in comparison to the damage they can deal, I highly recommend chariots to present combat threats to the enemy. I am currently using 4 chariots in my dragon-based army, and I think you need at least 2.

2) Have multiple units capable of hunting enemy war machines.

Since things like cannon, bolt throwers and stone throwers are probably the biggest threat to a dragon, you need the capability to take them down and/or tie them up. And you need the ability to deal with multiple war machines. Harpies are absolutely necessary for this role, and multiplt units of Dark Riders as well. I have had good success using a noble on a dark pegasus in addition to my dragon since he can perform multiple roles -- hunting war machines and mages, and serving as a march-blocker, as well as dealing with enemy light cavalry and other similar elements.

3) In a list of less than 3000 points, avoid other expensive units choices -- specifically Black Guard, Hydras, a Beastmaster on a Manticore, and the Cauldron of Blood. Using these choices just takes up far too many precious points when you already have a 500+ point model in your army.

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:53 pm

Dyvim Tvar wrote:I am currently using 4 chariots in my dragon-based army

And I did so too, last time (thanks Dyvim!). The word 'Redundancy' sprang to mind in bright, neon letters - and my opponent ended up being more concerned with guessing which COCs were gonna pass their Stupidity test than me. That felt nice!

Opera of death · Post by **Opera of death** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:22 pm

I found the chariots very useful in my two dragon 3000 point army (see Battle Reports).

HB on dragon, ha, sdc, DoDP, ES, CoBI 555pts
HB on dragon, BA, LT, lance, sdc, shield 558pts
Noble on peg, lance, shield, ha, sdc, SoG 166pts
Caddy with 2 scrolls 140pts

10 rxbelves with shields 125pts
10 rxbelves with shields 125pts
10 rxbelves with shields 125pts
6 DRs, rxb, mus, 151pts
5 DRs, mus, 97pts
5 DRs, mus, 97pts

6 harpies, 78pts
CoC spears 97pts
CoC spears 97pts
CoC spears 97pts
CoC spears 97pts

rbt 100pts
rbt 100pts
rbt 100pts
rbt 100pts

2998pts
76 models
4DD+2 scrolls
72rxb shots + 24 rbt shots + lifetaker

You now have it from Dyvim Tvar, the master himself.

The list needs to be built around the Dragon with flying character and harpies, themselves supported by DR.

Here's my last 2250 point Dragon list. It's a bit extreme. It worked very well.

HB on dragon, ha, sdc, l, ES, CoBI, 510pts
Noble on peg, SoM, Seal, shield, ha, sdc, 182pts
Caddy with 2 scrolls 140pts

10 rxbelves with shields, mus 125pts
10 rxbelves with shields, mus 125pts
10 rxbelves with shields, mus 125pts
5 DRs, rxb, mus, 127pts
5 DRs, mus, 97pts
5 DRs, mus, 97pts

6 harpies, 78pts
CoC spears 97pts
CoC spears 97pts
6 COK SSS 242pts

rbt 100pts
rbt 100pts

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:49 pm

Right -- one more thing after reading back through this thread:

You don't need to sacrifice shooting in a dragon-based army. But if you are playing a 2000 to 2250 point list, I do think you need to sacrifice either magic OR shooting. You just can't really afford both. You can either take a couple level 2 mages (and maybe crossbows on your dar riders), or you can take RBTs and crossbow elves.

It's buried somewhere in the army-list forum, and I don't want to find it to link to it, so as an example here's my current 2250 list pasted directly into this post:

Characters

Dark Elf Highborn 511pts
Lance; Armour of Darkness; Crown of Black Iron
Mount: Black Dragon

Sorceress 140pts
Dispel Scroll(x2)

Dark Elf Noble 174pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Enchanted Shield; Seal of Ghrond
Mount: Dark Pegasus

Core Units

15 x Dark Elf Warriors 195pts
Shield; Repeater crossbow; Musician; Standard Bearer

15 x Dark Elf Warriors 195pts
Shield; Repeater crossbow; Musician; Standard Bearer

5 x Dark Riders 127pts
Repeater crossbow; Musician

5 x Dark Riders 127pts
Repeater crossbow; Musician

5 x Dark Riders 127pts
Repeater crossbow; Musician

Special Units

5 x Harpies 65pts

2 x Cold One Chariot 194pts
Spear

2 x Cold One Chariot 194pts
Spear

Rare Units

2 x Reaper Bolt Thrower 200pts

Sometimes I do run a dragon list without a lot of shooting. In that case, I will take this list and substitute 2 big blocks of spearmen for the crossbows, and will drop the 2 bolt throwers for a unit of Cold One Knights with a champion and the War Banner.

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:36 am

Dyvim, how do you deploy the rxbs?