Battle Standard Bearer Discussion

[Gwvsjohn]

What are people's thoughts on the Dark Elf BSB? Is he a crucial part of a winning force? Is he too limited in his equipment options? What sort of character setups does the BSB fit in?

I was thinking HB, BSB, BM on a Manti with my first focus being eliminating enemy mages

or HB, BSB, Sorc, Sorc, give the Wand to the BSB

Both are at 2000

[The_everchosen]

I don't normally bother with a BSB, if my elves are in combats they're going to lose, its only because I am using the unit as a sacrifice (spearmen etc.). I generally find that if my elves are in a combat where a win is not automatic then I am losing the battle! so the reroll is largely irrelevant.

[Rasputinii]

The BSB is an interesting little character. He divides opinion too, when and if discussion about him pops up. The thing is that because most druchii armies do not fight a straightforward bash it out in lines type of battle, and frequently only use infantry to limited roles the need for the BSB re-roll is diminished and thus not chosen given its cost and the limitation it puts on the noble carrying it.

The most common useage is of course the BSB on a CO with the Hydra banner in a unit of knights.

However following Ash's lead there have been an increasing number of floating BSBs in lists on this site. Thats usually a BSB ona horse with the Sword of Might and often the seal of Ghrond. This floating guy is great. He can put the re-roll into places you can't with amore static BSB, which does open up new possibilities in holding charges, especially with spearelves. He is also very useful now in 7th that the BSB stacks with unit banners. So he can move around and add +1 CR as well as three S5 attacks. Very respectable.

When I was playing more regularly I began to se the BSB alot. I had a BSB on a horse with the Hydra banner, and he would swap around, joining different units that would need him. Cutting between the two Knight units I had and Dark Rider units, which would shock an opponent - a DR unit with 12 S3 attacks and 14 S4 attacks on the charge can do quite alot, especially with +1 or 2 for banners. I was really pleased with how that work. The BSB re-roll was defo handy with my spears and even on my knights.

However the list I was testing last, that I never published, and still won't, included a noble on a CO with the Big Banner in a small units of knights. Now that was surprise factor. Worked very well in the one or two games I got to test the list. Huge amount of potential in that. Around the same time Kel had been testing an infantry list with the big banner that he assured me had been working a real treat. I think too many people are put off by its price tag and don't think enough about how superb a piece of kit is, if you know what you are doing.

Hope that is of some help to you.

[Ninsaneja]

The only downside to the Hydra Banner (Aside from the cost) is that it leaves you with only the mounted+heavy armor+SDC armor, and no magic items. Your expensive model is extremely unsafe. That said, how do you kill him in a unit of Hydra-CoK?

[Shakra sharktooth]

The most common useage is of course the BSB on a CO with the Hydra banner in a unit of knights.

i dont think you can choose a BSB on a CO, you can only choose him/she on a dark pegasi

[Dyvim tvar]

Although not in my current army, I have frequently used a BSB in a chariot with the Warbanner. Lots of impact hits and +2 combat resolution means that he can break a lot of stuff on the charge as well as providing break-test re-rolls to those around him.

A BSB is really a must in any army including Black Guard since it makes them even harder to break. I like to keep the BSB near the unit of Black Guard rather than in it.

[D'jihurccen]

@ shakra: I believe that the codex says you cant take the following:
mundane items other then armor
dark pegasus

at least that how its seems to me, although it is worded awkwardly.

im a fan of the hydra banner with cold ones as well, on the charge thats 2 s5 and 2 s4 attacks per model... yummy

[Dyvim tvar]

D'jihurccen is right -- a BSB: (1) cannot ride a pegasus, (2)cannot take any mundane weapons aside from the hand weapon he comes with; and (3) cannot carry a shield.

It is poorly worded, I must admit. And note that since he cannot carry a mundane sheild, a BSB also cannot carry a magic shield.

[Patrizzo]

I would think it through more than once before I took a BSB in 7th ed. and especially before commiting him to combat. It's a great bonus with two banners, but there's a much overlooked downside. If the BSB is broken, he loses his banner. If he loses his banner, not only does he lose the effect of a magic banner, but also the abilities to reroll breaktests and added combat bonus. Those abilities are in the banner (according to the rulebook, p.82-83). Unless the bearer is unbreakable, or if I was sure (and I mean real sure) to win the combat, I wouldn't risk it.

[Dark Alliance]

Interesting point Patrizzo raises there. I have never seen that interpretation employed in a game once a BSB rallies. Methinks I will have to check that one out when I get home.

[Bloodtemplar]

Patrizzo's right, the BSB is more vulnerable now than ever before. You really have to use his CR bonus more as an overkill to an already won fight, risking him to an uncertain combat is asking for trouble.

I think the new rules only emphasize the old use of BSB in hard hammer units (mainly CO knights) with the Hydra Banner.

[Patrizzo]

@Dark Alliance: It's new for 7th. In 6th a BSB couldn't lose his banner, and still be alive so it was never an issue before. I just realized it when I played against a Bretonnian player, who broke with one of his lances (after a flank charge combined with the Spasm) and his BSB was in the same unit. We were curious and checked it in the rulebook. And there it was. Actually I think it's rather ok, with the quite cheap cost of 35points.

I would say however, that this make the Banner of Nagarythe better. It gives you the same safety as in 6th ed. but at a rather steep price of course.

[Tizsht]

Although not in my current army, I have frequently used a BSB in a chariot with the Warbanner. Lots of impact hits and +2 combat resolution means that he can break a lot of stuff on the charge as well as providing break-test re-rolls to those around him.

A BSB is really a must in any army including Black Guard since it makes them even harder to break. I like to keep the BSB near the unit of Black Guard rather than in it.

I have used bsb in chariot, works great, also, don't really need warbanner, instead I take seal of ghrond and a small cheap magical weapon (Great vs pesky banshees, dryads and others )

Also, to the post starter, a bsb can't ride on a manti...but a dark pegasus is an option....

[Dyvim tvar]

Actually, a Dark Pegasus is not an option. Only a cold-one or a dark steed.

I do agree that the Warbanner isn't always needed for a BSB in a chariot. Sword of Might and Blood Armor can be a good combo for a BSB in a chariot.

Also, Standard of Slaughter on him can allow the BSB to break some pretty tough opponents on the charge, although there is some luck involved.

[Tizsht]

Oh, true true Dyvim. Well, doesn't matter, I only use him in chariots or very rarely in CoK units.

I like to use the biting blade, cheap and gets the extra -1 to armour, always handy. And he doesn't have to cost super much.

Oh yes...But I rather go with warbanner in that case, getting the +1 in every combat is a far better deal in my opinion.

[Skulls for khaine]

As a few have already stated a BSB with t he hydar banner in a unit of CO is ace. This is the only way I have ever fielded one and it has never failed to desimate the enemy.

[Phierlihy]

Two points I do not see brought up (and I'm surprised) are having your BSB carry the Banner of Naggeroth and the assassin. First stick your BSB on a cold one - the unit he joins now causes fear and does not suffer stupidity because the banner makes them immune to psychology. Put an assassin in the unit and anytime someone gets within striking distance, he can appear right next to the BSB like a bodyguard and (hopefully) wipe out any potential attacks the BSB might face. This is just about the PERFECT use of an assassin.

Imagine this scenario - a block of 60 Dark Elf Warriors (13 wide) with your BSB. They cause fear and are unbreakable. Now as the enemy piles his troops into you trying to kill your block, you add a some of your own units into his flanks. Because of the poor wording of the banner, eveyr unit you add to their combat gives you +1 combat res. Couple of chariots, some shades, a lone character etc and suddenly your combat res destroys him. And as long as you keep the unit in combat, he can't shoot it! The next time I run this kind of army, I'll write a battle report to help demonstrate.

[Patrizzo]

the unit he joins now causes fear and does not suffer stupidity because the banner makes them immune to psychology.

Being Immune to Psychology doesn't help you against Stupidity. The rules changed in 7th edition.

[Lord tareq]

Two points I do not see brought up (and I'm surprised) are having your BSB carry the Banner of Naggeroth and the assassin. First stick your BSB on a cold one - the unit he joins now causes fear and does not suffer stupidity because the banner makes them immune to psychology. Put an assassin in the unit and anytime someone gets within striking distance, he can appear right next to the BSB like a bodyguard and (hopefully) wipe out any potential attacks the BSB might face. This is just about the PERFECT use of an assassin.

Imagine this scenario - a block of 60 Dark Elf Warriors (13 wide) with your BSB. They cause fear and are unbreakable. Now as the enemy piles his troops into you trying to kill your block, you add a some of your own units into his flanks. Because of the poor wording of the banner, eveyr unit you add to their combat gives you +1 combat res. Couple of chariots, some shades, a lone character etc and suddenly your combat res destroys him. And as long as you keep the unit in combat, he can't shoot it! The next time I run this kind of army, I'll write a battle report to help demonstrate.

Actually, it would really surprise me if that would work. Your said combo costs almost 1000 points. Thats close to 1000 points in 1 mega-unit with 2 characters in it. It might work once if you can surprise a not so experienced opponent, but in every veteran player a small light should begin to light when you deploy a 60-elf strong unit on the table and put a BSB in it.
In addition, the BSB will still be extremely vulnerable for a model that costs 281 points. things like a chaos lord or a bretonnian lance formation can still obliterate him in 1 round, and no assassin can stop that from happening.
As a second note, putting the cold one in that unit will not make the unit cause fear. Enemies only have to test for fear if they come in base to base with the BSB, and when you beat a unit they will not autobreak (unless only 1 US1 model is left)


On a more general note, I've never been a fan of the BSB in an elf army, but that was basically because my elf armies were always harassement armies with little ranked units.
Currently I'm working on an infantry army, and I can see the BSB being really useful there. Especially black guard shine when you have a BSB in your army, as it makes them really reliable to hold their ground. I'd never give him a magical banner though, far better to give him a few nice magic items so he lasts a bit longer.

[Drek]

I've wondered about putting a BSB on a CO in unit of COK. Give him the St. of Slaughter, give the COK std bearer the warbanner, and you're somewhere between +4 and +6 CR. Not too shabby, and then toss a few wounds in and you should be in good shape...it's expensive, but on a small unit it could be a very nasty surprise.

[D'jihurccen]

Standard of slaughter is a waste on a BSB for two reasons:
1. standard of slaughter is one use only and only the first time you charge, so its pretty much a waste of points on any standard bearer
2. Having a magical standard means no magical armor for the BSB, therefore making him for vulnerable

A unit of cold one knights charging will hopefully not need the huge boost to their CR, unless your dice go horribly wrong. Also the war banner is still unique, so putting in the cold one knights means you cant put it in say a unit of corsairs or BG which could use it to help their staying power

[Sulla]

If I am gonna put a noble in a unit of CoK, I usually upgrade him to BSB. The reason being that for one point less armour, I get a guaranteed point of CR. The re-rolls are nice and all, so are the magic banner options, but that point of cr is the main bonus to me. It just takes a little randomness out of including a noble and makes him a little more reliable.

For equipment, I either give the the blade of ruin for cracking knights, or the sword of might and either ring of hotek or seal of ghrond.

[Lakissov]

It just takes a little randomness out of including a noble and makes him a little more reliable.

Well, the thing about this +1 CR being guaranteed is not exactly correct. If your BSB is killed, you don't get the +1 for CR, and with less armor he is worse at surviving.

[Dancingpigeon]

As a second note, putting the cold one in that unit will not make the unit cause fear. Enemies only have to test for fear if they come in base to base with the BSB, and when you beat a unit they will not autobreak (unless only 1 US1 model is left)

Wrong- the unit does cause fear as far as any unit wishing to charge is concerned. As for him being killed, an assassin is a bit of a gamble, tis true, especially if you're charged by a lord of chaos or some such other combat monster. I don't really endorse any tactic that involves a 60 strong unit of Elves... but it sure would be fun to plonk on the battlefield, if only for the "what the fu..." comment that is bound to be uttered by your opponent.

With a thousand or so points left over the rest of the army you'd want a few Dark Rider units to prevent you being lead around by Fast Cavalry. You'd probably also want 2 Reapers and 2-3 Chariots and the obligatory harpies. Obviously not something you'd take to GT, but good for a laugh.

Opera (if you're out there), I dare you to give it a go in your next battle against the Brettonian kid.

[Patrizzo]

As a second note, putting the cold one in that unit will not make the unit cause fear. Enemies only have to test for fear if they come in base to base with the BSB, and when you beat a unit they will not autobreak (unless only 1 US1 model is left)

Wrong- the unit does cause fear as far as any unit wishing to charge is concerned.

Incorrect. P.78 clearly state that Lord Tareq is correct.