Phoenix guard?

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Krystalice2020
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Phoenix guard?

Post by Krystalice2020 »

One quick question:

Are phoenix guard only 13 points/model. THey are way better than black guard, and they cause fear...

Theres no wa they cost 3 points less than black guard...
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Re: Phoenix guard?

Post by Loki »

KrystalIce2020 wrote:One quick question:

Are phoenix guard only 13 points/model. THey are way better than black guard, and they cause fear...

Theres no wa they cost 3 points less than black guard...


This would be answered in the High Elf book. It's probably best you check there. And it's no good comparing unit to unit with the High Elves. It just ends up with a lot of complaining and nothing accomplished.
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Post by Bad beast »

i don't know how you consider them way better then black guard when IICR they have the exact same stat line, and equipment, the only difference between them is black guard are stubborn and have eternal hatred, while PG cause fear......personally i think black guard are the better unit
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Post by Lordofthenight »

I think his point was Phoenix guard are thee points cheaper, for nigh-on identical models.
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Post by Rasputinii »

Given that Phenoix Guard are alost universally reguarded as the worst unit in the game I find it hard to believe they are better then BG.

They are pooh for several reasons. They cause fear, yes, but they are the only unit bar the dragon that does in the HE army, so getting an autobreak is never going to happen, because PG are still too expensive to make massive units. They break real easy because they are just elves with a 5+ save and don't hit very hard because they are just elves with a halberd.

Conversely BG hit really hard because of eternal hatred and are stubborn so they aren't going any where. This means you can use smaller units and do jobs that normal elven infanty can't. You will also notice their magic banner limit is especially set so they can cause fear. Making them even harder to shift and more likely to autobreak thanks to the abundance of fear causers in the rest of the army.

BG may not be liked by all, but I have yet to find any one (bar you) that has sung the praises of PG. They really are pooh.
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

RasputinII got it, fear is next to useless on a unit like PG, it is really hard to come up with a worse unit in this game. BG are at least stubborn. They definitely don't shine as one of the most cost-effective units but are still way ahead of something like Phoenix Guard.
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Post by Archangel »

uh.... aint phoenix guard 16 points not 13, thats swordmasters your thinking. PGand BG are evenly matched till the new HE book drops in, the real Q is executioners and swordmasters who is better represented by the rules and points? eh... answer me this one

Edit: ahh.... 15 points thanks for the reminder (i did have the book near me but i trust my crappy memory too much) the reason i think they are even is the PG have fear and are cheaper, BG have to pay for fear and higher point cost for bonuses in rules. set a point limit and duel them out, see how comes out tops?
Last edited by Archangel on Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

Archangel wrote:uh.... aint phoenix guard 16 points not 13, thats swordmasters your thinking. PGand BG are evenly matched till the new HE book drops in, the real Q is executioners and swordmasters who is better represented by the rules and points? eh... answer me this one


Actually Phoenix Guard's 15 pts a piece.

Regarding your question: Against High Elves Executioners are better, otherwise Swordmasters. Universally, they both suck.
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Post by Rasputinii »

Archangel wrote:PGand BG are evenly matched till the new HE book drops in


Uh. Not really. A properly invested in unit of BG will trounce a properly invested in unit of PG any day. And then there is the fact that 10 BG are actually a good and interesting unit to use. 10 PG are, umm, crap. Just as crap as a fully tolled up unit. Lovely models. Awful rules. They are just dire. And them causing fear makes no sense. They should be unbreakable in my mind, or something like that.
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Post by Khel »

being speechless wouldn't make me fearful, and i wonder if they would die with a scream. Either way, BG, get more attacks in, and are not really ever gonna flee, for if we get more attacks that means more death, meaning more CR, and they PG, dont have a chance, for if they win, it's only coz they cause fear, thats why they break the enemy useally on charge.
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Post by Rol'ec »

PG can't do enything but cause fear thats why they have got it ,BG, are way better by far
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Post by Loki »

Rol'ec wrote:PG can't do enything but cause fear thats why they have got it ,BG, are way better by far

That doesn't make any sense at all. But seeing as BG have an option to cause fear, they obviously have the upper hand.
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Post by Ninsaneja »

@Archangel: For the record, swordmasters aren't that cheap either, they're hella expensive. Executioners are better because they are massively cheaper than swordmasters, forget KB. You can afford a ranked unit of executioners.
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Re: Phoenix guard?

Post by Lord anathir »

KrystalIce2020 wrote:One quick question:

Are phoenix guard only 13 points/model. THey are way better than black guard, and they cause fear...

Theres no wa they cost 3 points less than black guard...


pheonix guard are not 13 pts / model. They are 15. And yes, Id take black guard over the pheonix guard any day. Stubborn is always there, fear can be negated by a leadership test. Also, for fear to be useful you need a lot of them and at that price its hard to warrant buying 20. Finally, the black guard get the hatred bonus. which is nice. it means that from 6 attacks you are usually hitting with 5 or all 6 every round. st4 is not bad either for a tarpit unit...a unit that doesnt have to win combat to be effective. Pheonix guard do.

Both or absolutely sweet models though. Im contemplating buying 40 pheonix guard and converting them to high elf spearmen.
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Post by The liger »

Maybe KrystalIce2020 meant Swordmasters, but I think he did mean Phoenix Guard. Assuming that I disagree, IMO Phoenix Guard are one of the worst units in the game, and are certainly worse than Black Guard. Stubborn + Eternal Hatred is far better than Fear, which really isn't worth much on a model that costs so much because you can't get a high enough unit strength for the autobreak without having an extremely expensive unit.
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Post by Slerac fellblade »

The real question is how often do you actually see a veteran High Elf Player use Phoenix Guard. I haven't even see newbies bother with them. That tells you something when not even newbs will touch that crap with a ten foot pole.

However conversely I have seen more Dark Elf lists using Black Guard. Which tells you something. It tells you that black guard are useful. A unit of 20 of them with full command is in the high 300's but why would you do that silly mortal.
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Post by Minsc »

And them causing fear makes no sense. They should be unbreakable in my mind, or something like that.


So true!

Clanrat 1#: By the Horned Rat, damn what those halberd carrying Elves are quiet!
Clanrat 2#: Yeah! I'm scared!
Clanrat 1#: Me too! Let's not attack them, lets run!
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Post by Slerac fellblade »

I think it is the eerie aura that would kinda cause. Think about it unless it is undead vs undead battle fields would be loud places. Nobles, Sergeants, Princes, Tyrants, Waaagh Bosses Thanes and Kings screaming orders, musicians relaying the orders by flute, drum or stringed instrument. Add in the screaming of the dying and the wounded and the clash of swords.

Then all of a sudden advancing on your position is these quiet as the grave warriors. You fire into their numbers not even a scream of pain as they fall. The only sound is their amour and their blades cutting through you. Once you are up close as you kill them and they kill you there is not a single sound emanating from them. Thats unnerving as hell. I understand fear I just don't understand why they aren't immune to psychology and unbreakable.
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

Slerac Fellblade wrote:Then all of a sudden advancing on your position is these quiet as the grave warriors. You fire into their numbers not even a scream of pain as they fall. The only sound is their amour and their blades cutting through you. Once you are up close as you kill them and they kill you there is not a single sound emanating from them. Thats unnerving as hell.


So how do they spell 'Run away!!'? Hand signals?

I can just imagine it. You fire into the numbers of these quiet as grave warriors and the only sound you hear is the tapping of their feet as they turn their tail in a silent panic.

So yeah, Fear alone as a special rule is just dumb.
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Post by Rork »

BloodTemplar wrote:I can just imagine it. You fire into the numbers of these quiet as grave warriors and the only sound you hear is the tapping of their feet as they turn their tail in a silent panic.


"Halt friend! What's the password?"
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Elves shouldn't really have unbreakable units - standing there and getting slaughtered on a grand scale isn't very elven, particularly not for one of their most elite units.
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Slerac fellblade
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Post by Slerac fellblade »

Yeah if anything i would imagine Phoenix Guard as being Immune to psychology and able to cause fear.
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Post by Khel »

I find fear, is just right fo the Pg, for it can help alot against ORc and GOblins. For one time, in a tourny, My friend was playing High elves, and he had alot of PG, for he was facing Grom the Paunch's Horde. They luckily killed grom the Paunch, and the fear causing PG, just ran amok through the whole army, causing fear test's all over the board.

High elf 1: "We're outnumbered 10 to 1 sir, plus we're surrounded, and need i mention that we're Bottled Necked? We only have one unit of Phoenix Guard. Please, Keeper of the flame! what do we do?"

Phoenix Guard Champion:"......"

High elf 1:"Cant you gesture or something?"

Phoenix Guard Champion:"......."

High elf 2: Here comes the Cold one Chariots, sir, hundreds of them!

High elf 1: C'MON YOU SILENT GIT, TELL US WHAT TO DO!!!!!

Cold one chaiots whizz by

Phoenix Guard:*Cough cough*(from dust from chariot)

Whole unit of Phoenix guard: TRAITOR!!! KILL THE TRAITOR!

Looking at each other, the Phoenix guard all murdered them selves :P

(Sorry for Off topic, just couldn't help myself.
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Post by Bloodtemplar »

Khelmor Blackspine, that's quite probably the weakest argument ever.

Elves cause fear on Goblins anyway and Fear doesn't even cause any fleeing unless you're outnumbering which is pretty damn unlikely against an O&G horde.
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Post by Rasputinii »

BloodTemplar wrote:Khelmor Blackspine, that's quite probably the weakest argument ever.

Elves cause fear on Goblins anyway and Fear doesn't even cause any fleeing unless you're outnumbering which is pretty damn unlikely against an O&G horde.


Amen to that brother.
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Post by Danceman »

Worst.Unit.In.The.Game... I mean really.

We have weak elves with little armour, not strong. No rule or anything to help them out in combat or anything really. Low number of attacks and of course they´re elves so wont wound much anyways.
The only thing they got going for themselves are a good WS and I value but as above sadly ruined by a weak close combat punch.

Then we have fear... huzzah. If you bring a big unit of these to fully benefit from the Fear special rule your opponent will just think to himself "YES! Free victory points!".

Basicly, you DE players should be damn happy with your BG which actually fill a purpose and of course being the best looking unit in the game IMO.

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