Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:59 am



Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Spite + Hatred vs ASF 

Given the indiciations that we *are* getting Hatred as an AWR, would the addition of spite offset the caveats of hatred, and be a proper counter to ASF?
Yes, Spite + Hatred would be a reasonable compromise 54%  54%  [ 33 ]
No, I would prefer something other than spite 38%  38%  [ 23 ]
No, Hatred by itself will suffice 8%  8%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 61

Spite + Hatred vs ASF 
Author Message
Assassin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:40 pm
Posts: 526
Location: Charlotte, NC (USA)
Ok, so we all know that it's very likely that DEs will get universal hatred... Now, we've all argued into we're blue in the face as to why that's a good/bad thing, and that's not what this thread is about. As far as we know, for better or for worse, we are very likely to get it.

But I think we can all agree that hatred is still not comparable to ASF, which doesn't sit well with anybody. (except HE players. :P)

So just for shizz and giggles, I crunched a few numbers to see what a mock combat would be like if Druchii had both Spite & Hatred, and how it would compare to ASF.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Setup: A unit of basic human militia are charging a unit of elves... We're assuming both units are in a 2x5 formation, so the front rank has 5 attacks. We're also assuming both units are equipped with light armor for a 6+ save. I think this is a fair representation of each race at a baseline level.

Human Militia Charge a Unit of High Elven Archers
Archer Attack First:
5 Attacks
Average Hits: 3.33
Average Wounds: 1.67
Wounds Inflicated After Saves: 1.39

Human Militia Attacks Second:
3.61 Attacks
Average Hits: 1.81
Average Wounds: 0.90
Wounds Inflicated After Saves: 0.75

Difference: 0.64

As we can see, while both units are likely to inflict at least one wound in this scenario, the High Elves still have a much greater chance of doing so, with a difference of 0.64 wounds after saves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Human Militia Charge a Unit of Dark Elven Warriors
Human Militia Attacks First:
5 Attacks
Average Hits: 2.5
Average Wounds: 1.25
Wounds Inflicated After Saves: 1.04

Dark Elf Warriors Attack Second:
5 Attacks
Average Hits: 4.4
Average Wounds: 2.22
Wounds Inflicated After Saves: 1.85

Difference: 0.81

Here, things look dramatically different. With hatred and spite, the Dark Elves fair much better. While the human militia are likely to cause at least 1 wound, the dark elves are likely to inflict at least 1, maybe even 2 wounds. The average difference being 0.81! Not too shabby. In this scenario, it's a bit scarier charging a unit of dark elves than high elves, even with the latter having ASF.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

In subsequent rounds of combat, the dark elves would usually be striking first due to initiative, and the effects of hatred would be gone... therefore, they would have probabilities mirroring their high elven kin thereafter. But on that initial round, Druchii would have an obvious edge.

And any edge should come at a price. For High Elves, ASF is counter-balanced by their higher points cost per unit. 15 points for a T3 foot trooper is pretty steep, but not unbearable. (and for Swordmasters, a bargain. ;))

For Dark Elves, that edge in the first round of combat is offset by the fact that we must always pursue broken units, which can be a tactical liability.

Let's also keep in mind that HE's get ASF all the time, period, no matter which round of combat we're in. Dark Elves only get their hatred (against most foes) on the first round of a combat... So we'd be trading a steady, reliable advantage for a slightly larger advantage in the first round. There after, we simply fight with spite.

So given all of that: Would hatred be acceptable if it came packaged with Spite? Would the boons outweigh the banes?

Discuss!

_________________
Project Log on Warseer.com: Host of the Golden Spires of Immutable Anguish


Last edited by Monkeylord on Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:03 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:35 am
Posts: 1119
Location: The Netherlands
Post 
From a pure gameplay perspective, yes I think it would outweight the forced pursue, and be equal to ASF. Ofcourse ASF still is better against fragile units that hit really hard (wardancers, witch elves etc.) and generally anything that hits very hard. However from a lore perspective spite fits perfectly, but hatred against all races does not.

another example,

20 High Elf spear warriors vs a 6 strong bretonnian lance with 6+ blessing;

High elves kill 0.74 models
5.26 knight attacks + champ strike back, doing 2.19 wounds
Horses do 0.71 wounds

Total outcome 0.74 for the high elves and 2.90 for the knights.
Difference: 2.16 wounds

Now 20 Dark Elf spearwarriors (with spite and hatred) vs a 6 strong lance with blessing:

Bretonnians kill 2.5 warriors
Horses kill a further 0.83
Total kills 3.33

11 Spear warrior attack back, doing 0.67 wounds (with hatred)

Difference: 2.66 wounds

Here the High Elves win clearly, although both don't fare well anyway.

_________________
Now it's been ten thousand years. Man has cried a billion tears.
For what he never knew, now man's reign is through.

But through eternal night. The twinkling of starlight.
So very far away. Maybe it's only yesterday.


Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:40 pm
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:52 pm
Posts: 380
Location: portsmouth NH
Post 
@ Tareq That just displays the Cheese to High Elf Spearmen fighting in 3 ranks.

I honestly would be happy with just the spite. In my own numbers crunching and play testing I have found that the coolest rules that both had good fluffability and gave us a decent trade off compared to ASF was "Spite" and either of my ideas for "Precision Strike" Either Armor Piercing or rerolling to wound.

Spite without Hatred works just fine vs humans and goblins. But falls short against T4 troops and anything with save 4 or better since we lack can openers.

Armour piercing suddenly meade the RXP a weapon of amazing power and I could stand to pay an additional point per model for it... Also made T3 troops more viable against anything with armor on. Only things liek the giant does this not help... but there is always that one unit in an army where you're benifits pose no advantage... thats why this is a strategy game.

Rerolling Wounds Gave me the best results against everything across the board except HE... Spite smoked them bu that is spite + Hatred (although hatred only netted me 1 additional wound and I still won combat by 2 without hatred) But against Things like Orcs or Rank in File Dwarves, Chaos troops this brought a new dimension to play and I broke most of them on the charge.

Now the question is which is most balanced? I think retaining our racial Hatred vs High elves is all it takes ot balance out the difference between whatever AWR they pick and Armour piercing or Spite will provide similar resulst vs other troops as ASF does.

Fluff wise.... the High Elves always win in the End. Just as the Empire always throws back the Hordes of Chaos, The Beastmen, The Greenkins, The Skaven and the Vampire Counts. (man Karl Franz manages to piss everyone off) So whatever they do to us We shouldn't be able to beat them Man to man... we should always have to actually beat them purely on skill and Luck. (now the Empire troops rarely match their fluff vs racial enamies unless the field 2 cannons and a Stank and some Knights with a Handgun line and a ton of wizards)

So I like Spite without Hatred... Prefer my Idea for Precision Strike and use Armor piercing bonus of 1 across the board... (except Beasts and non elf units). I will learn to adapt and overcome Hatred's drawback as most opponents aren't capable or crafty enough to bait pursuing troops into traps without me still haveing something to throw at their flank.


Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:48 pm
Profile WWW
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:44 pm
Posts: 75
Location: Poland
Post 
I think Spite vs HE and +1Attack on charge vs everybody would be good. For me both ideas are very fluffy- Spite- "I will kill him even if it is the last think in my life!" +1AoC: during every of our Invasions we were wining at the begining (first round with additional attack).

_________________
www.myspace.com/polskicukier


Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:30 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:35 am
Posts: 1119
Location: The Netherlands
Post 
I'd prefer to have just spite, and hatred (or even eternal hatred) just against High Elves.
Any other changes I would like to see in the units themselves, not special rules. :)

_________________
Now it's been ten thousand years. Man has cried a billion tears.
For what he never knew, now man's reign is through.

But through eternal night. The twinkling of starlight.
So very far away. Maybe it's only yesterday.


Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:14 pm
Profile
Assassin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:40 pm
Posts: 526
Location: Charlotte, NC (USA)
Post 
Lord Tareq wrote:
However from a lore perspective spite fits perfectly, but hatred against all races does not.


To be perfectly fair, that's a hugely subjective statement. Perfectly sound arguments could be made that the lore doesn't support spite, either. In fact, from a purely logical standpoint, I would say that the lore supports spite as we've defined it even less than it does universal hatred. (do note, this doesn't mean that GW shouldn't have creative license to update the lore, or that I wouldn't want Spite. :P)


But this is missing the point: It's fairly certain that we ARE getting hatred, so preferring spite OVER hatred is of little consequence, and we need to get past that. For the purposes of this thread, we should assume that we are getting Hatred, and that's that.

But is hatred alone enough to counter ASF? Most here would agree that it doesn't.

So: would Spite + Hatred be reasonable counter-part to ASF?

_________________
Project Log on Warseer.com: Host of the Golden Spires of Immutable Anguish


Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:46 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:39 pm
Posts: 1975
Location: Returned from the East
Post 
The answer to this question really depands on what you expect the dark elves will become.

If the dark elves are to regain their status as the "combat elves" then fair enough. Spite + Hatred balances ASF. HE still have the courage rule though and that effectively negates all of the low US fear/terror causers in the list. More work is required.

If however GW decide that high elves are the new "combat elves" then we need to look in a completely different direction. Perhaps a powerful magic special rule.

We might end up as a horde army with slaves filling out the ranks, making us a kind of elite version of the skaven.

Perhaps we will just have to accept not being very good against the high elves. The fluff certainly supports it and lets face it, every army in the game has a nemesis army that it has trouble with.

We will just have to wait and see. (hopefully GW will see sense and abandon AWH)


Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:08 pm
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:52 pm
Posts: 380
Location: portsmouth NH
Post 
/Agree with Venkh

We focus too much on Fighting the High Elves... The Lore says We may win the battle but we consistantly lose the War with our Foofoo Kin to the south.

I have said it many times in my short time on the forum... I met these new high elves in battle and I only lost by 200 VP... Not due to their ASF because I was creative with how I managed them. I lost simply becuase of Poor Deployment.

An army wide rule is no cure for Poor Generalship. I hear so many people say "with this new Rule I won first round everytime" and so on and so forth. That is not being a good general. That is having an overpowered army. Suddenly everyone is playing Dark Elves... and the Power creep continues. If we got AWR's that ensured CC victories against current books... do you really want to face Chaos when they come out After us with even MORE power creep.

Even with ASF HE and DE balance out Nicely with us losing by only a slight margin. Eternal Hatred wouldn't change that significantly. Spite + our Racial hatred would make a beautifull Close combat phase with elves light and dark dying in the dozens. looking at how Spite + Hatred balances against other armies.. it is too much.

As far as arguments that Spite Isn't fluffy... This is a Civilitation of Trained Killers who practice Day and night, Knights who cover their bodies in Numbing Goop that prevents their steeds from eating them. Witches who take performance enhancing drugs and work themselves into a killing frenzy... Sure we look down Upon the Ignorant Northmen, the cowardly Goblins, the dim witted Ogres, The clumsy Orcs, the filthy Skaven, The Prancing Wood elves, the Decayed ones and the self Righteous Humans. The only Respect I hold for another race on the table is Dwarves... and that is a respect hard won through many battles where those few grim little men held off and smashed my crazed advance.

Being an Elitist doesn't mean you HATE everything... it just means you realize it is below you and usually not worth your bother, but if it dares to rise up you must smack it back into place.

Now as for Fluff on Spite... A Knight who feels niether Pain nor Pleasure should be able to Pull himself further down the blade and gouge his opponents eyes out with his thumbs and crush them in his mouth crush them and make his enamies stare in horror as the Virtea Oozes down his chin as he dies. Witch Elves Crazed with the lust of Battle wouldn't simply fall backward when recieving a debilatating wound... they would leap forward with the last of their strength and lodge that blade into their opponents throat before falling at his feet to have their dying Body Showered in his blood so they can rest at Khaines Feet Annointed properly by the blood of the unfaithfull. These 2 Units at the very least shoudl have Spite. What about the Crew of a Cold one chariot or any Character who can be involved with Cold ones? They are probably doused with that crap before battle too... That unit of spearment forced to deploy next to Hungry Cold Ones... probably coated in numbing goop.

The Orgies, the drugs and drinking and feasting, the torture and delights that the druchii feel at either the worship of Khaine or the secret worship of slanesh could be excess that they put themselves through just to have soem sort of physical sensation and experience a release especially for anyone serivng int he military or working with Cold ones who regularly has to treat their bodies with the goo.


Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:31 pm
Profile WWW
Trademaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 3170
Location: Ontario, Canada
Post 
Is this to match the striking first new rule that HE got?

Spite, hatred? Link plix.

_________________
Trading Forum


Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:26 am
Profile ICQ WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:31 pm
Posts: 1180
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Post 
I voted for "something other than spite"

There are two reasons:
1. I don't like us to have a rule that is designed solely for the purpose of negating the rule of the asur. I still think that we should have a rule against the asur, but it should be a characterful one, not a one designed with the intention of cancelling the benefit they get from SoA. I think, eternal hatred woud be characterful.
Oh, and on a side note, I don't think that SoA is overpowered, so please don't complain about it, it just sounds silly when people go "oh, they got new shiny stuff, I want it to be taken away from them and if I can't take it away from them, I want something for myself that lets me ignore it".

2. The "other thing" that I would like to have for our army is small but efficient tweaks to all of our units; for example 'raiders' for corsairs, 'ignore armor' for executioners, 'never lose frenzy' for witches, ItP for BG, 'hide in enemy units' for assassins and other stuff like this. We need those little tweaks in all individual units, not some lame army-wide rule.


Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:21 am
Profile ICQ WWW
Highborn
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 6:02 pm
Posts: 672
Location: Europe
Post 
sry Lakissov - i completly disagree here...

its just a joke that an army can make a large part of another army useless!
corsairs, witches, executioners, spearelves, black guard and even harpies are more or less useless now thx to ASF...
there is no other army out there which makes you throw away 2/3 of your army. i am forced to use massive shooting with magic and chariots - yes i massacred HEs this way and they are very unhappy with it - because i am forced to use this armytype to play vs asur and they are forced to play fast units again... this rule was a very bad idea IMO and eternal hatred won't change anything because my normal units are slaughtered before they can deal some damage.


back to the topic: 'maybe' hate AND spite is a bit too much? against asur it might work - against the rest its too much... elves should be weak and vulnerable (of course they should be able to inflict some damage) - spite negates this as well as ASF... thats why i don't like this rule at all!

_________________
At last, we will have revenge...


Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:02 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:35 am
Posts: 1119
Location: The Netherlands
Post 
They are still vulnerable, its still mainly T3 5+ save models. They just can strike even when killed, nothing un-elfish about that.

Monkeylord wrote:
To be perfectly fair, that's a hugely subjective statement. Perfectly sound arguments could be made that the lore doesn't support spite, either. In fact, from a purely logical standpoint, I would say that the lore supports spite as we've defined it even less than it does universal hatred.


The difference is that although nothing in the fluff supports spite, nothing hints against it either. (in fact, pretty much everyone agrees Dark Elves are very malicious)
Universal Hatred on the other hand is contrasting with the fluff, as Dark Elves see other races as inferior/cattle while they only hate their eternal enemies, the Asur. They might despise other races and/or feel great contempt for them, but hatred should be something exclusively against the Asur.

_________________
Now it's been ten thousand years. Man has cried a billion tears.
For what he never knew, now man's reign is through.

But through eternal night. The twinkling of starlight.
So very far away. Maybe it's only yesterday.


Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:32 am
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 234
Post 
There's not really anything in the fluff to support Speed of Asuryan.

"teamwork and training" is a pretty weak justification for an Archer being fast enough to strike before a charging cavalryman.

What happened to Dark Elves and Wood Elves in that sense, did they simply forget how to move that fast?

Despite it not being an official rule, Spite feels right with the current army list in that it means we can sensibly engage our ancestral enemy with the passion (and the hatred) that we're supposed to have.

Sorry about the rant...

_________________
<Sirist> As Malus's hateful hate-juice hit his hateful opponents, each one exploded into a bloodmist, while Malus hatefully screamed, "Blood and skulls for Khorne -- I mean, Khaine!"


Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:52 pm
Profile
Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:24 pm
Posts: 65
Location: Testing the new RXBow at the shooting Range.
Post 
Thats what I definately mean Sorceress!!!!!!!!!!! You are 200% right. Especially the Druchii famous for beeing the best warriors of the elves are in skills so far behind the High Elves and there is no reason why. Wich unit of the Druchii has Strength 4? The HEs have. Wich Druchii unit can strike always first (except the hidden Assassin)? The list goes on and on and as I wrote in a another topic I hope GW will do the right things in the new DE book. It becomes more and more ridicioulus. In 5 years the HEs have instead of an army a big red (of course Magic) button they have to push so the enemy dies instantly. What a rubbish.

_________________
- Its not allowed to feed your Cold One with more than three High Elfes per day, (remember all the itzy bitzy things on their clothes, hair, and skin) to avoid sickness of your Cold One.
- Druchii Cold One Field Manual Chapter 3, Page 73.


Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:34 pm
Profile
Slave (off the Altar)
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 8:29 pm
Posts: 13
Location: abandoned asylum
Post 
Lord Tareq wrote:
I'd prefer to have just spite, and hatred (or even eternal hatred) just against High Elves.
Any other changes I would like to see in the units themselves, not special rules. :)


Almost nothing to add here :)

Spite in general and hate the same way it is now.
One thing that really starts to bother me is all those people trying to find something "equal to ASF".
I don't want to have an army wide rule as lame and cheesy as ASF, and I don't need it. It absorbs the disadvantages you deserve for being a really bad general (fitting for those weakish Asur). We Druchii don't need to strike first when charged because we are not charged if we don't want to be. All I want is a way to fight the asur back, and nothing else. Spite does the job, so no need for anything else.

_________________
Disclaimer:
If it sounds sarcastic don't take it seriously.
If it sounds dangerous do not try this at home or at all.
And if it offends you: just don't listen to it.


Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:00 pm
Profile
Assassin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:40 pm
Posts: 526
Location: Charlotte, NC (USA)
Post 
iKaRuS wrote:
Lord Tareq wrote:
I'd prefer to have just spite, and hatred (or even eternal hatred) just against High Elves.
Any other changes I would like to see in the units themselves, not special rules. :)


Almost nothing to add here :)

Spite in general and hate the same way it is now.
One thing that really starts to bother me is all those people trying to find something "equal to ASF".
I don't want to have an army wide rule as lame and cheesy as ASF, and I don't need it. It absorbs the disadvantages you deserve for being a really bad general (fitting for those weakish Asur). We Druchii don't need to strike first when charged because we are not charged if we don't want to be. All I want is a way to fight the asur back, and nothing else. Spite does the job, so no need for anything else.


Don't get me wrong, I actually do agree with your sentiment 100%. But as far as we know, that's entirely immaterial; given what we know right now, we're not getting spite. What we're getting is hatred, and I think we all agree that hatred, even eternal hatred, is *not* a sufficient counter to ASF.

If I had to choose between one or the other, I would choose spite. But, like I said, that isn't the situation we are being presented.

_________________
Project Log on Warseer.com: Host of the Golden Spires of Immutable Anguish


Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:39 pm
Profile
Slave (off the Altar)
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 8:29 pm
Posts: 13
Location: abandoned asylum
Post 
MonkeyLord wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I actually do agree with your sentiment 100%. But as far as we know, that's entirely immaterial; given what we know right now, we're not getting spite. What we're getting is hatred, and I think we all agree that hatred, even eternal hatred, is *not* a sufficient counter to ASF.

If I had to choose between one or the other, I would choose spite. But, like I said, that isn't the situation we are being presented.


I don't know. The book is still a year away. Looking at the polls almost nobody likes army wide hatred. And it would not work anyway. Maybe GW picks the idea up, since it is really fitting and popular (according to the polls) while still not that overpowered.
I mean if we give up the hopes for a sound army book we actually like, what's the point in playing anyway? I am pretty sure more than one player would simply drop the Druchii if he was disappointed in this book since the last one was so crappy. Only a hardcore fan would play an army with rules he doesn't like for that long...

_________________
Disclaimer:
If it sounds sarcastic don't take it seriously.
If it sounds dangerous do not try this at home or at all.
And if it offends you: just don't listen to it.


Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:00 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:31 pm
Posts: 1180
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Post 
let the weak ones be sorted out
i am sure they will do the job correctly, and you know why? because they did the job well with asur - they gave them a rule which fits them well and which is in no way overpowering.


Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:24 am
Profile ICQ WWW
Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:24 pm
Posts: 65
Location: Testing the new RXBow at the shooting Range.
Post 
Its not about weak ones get sorted out Lakissov, I play from the first Edition and DE where never a easy army to play and this is good!

But GW puts more and more such rules in the new books instead of balancing all armys out. In 40k its even worse but think about one thing: what do you mean what the next updated books include? I dont want even overpowered DEs but to make them equal they have to invent something no matter its hatred, spite whatever and in the end you are equal to the HEs but overpowered to other armys untill they get their update. And their update will overpower you. Its just annoying the way it is.

_________________
- Its not allowed to feed your Cold One with more than three High Elfes per day, (remember all the itzy bitzy things on their clothes, hair, and skin) to avoid sickness of your Cold One.
- Druchii Cold One Field Manual Chapter 3, Page 73.


Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:12 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:31 pm
Posts: 1180
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Post 
once again, GW don't need to invent a rule like spite for us for making the army competitive, instead they need to make tweaks to individual units.

and I will be glad if the people who think that it is not possible to play DE without some funky army-wide special rule will drop the army - that would help to keep its reputation as a general's, not whiner's army.


Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:18 am
Profile ICQ WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:39 pm
Posts: 1975
Location: Returned from the East
Post 
Quote:
and I will be glad if the people who think that it is not possible to play DE without some funky army-wide special rule will drop the army - that would help to keep its reputation as a general's, not whiner's army.


At the moment the army has a reputation for both.

Why not just state your opinion an let it stand on its merit rather than trying to establish some sort of moral superiority?

Balance, internal and external, is all most players are looking for along with character.

Mind and Heart. Thats why this is so contentious.


Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:05 am
Profile
Highborn
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 6:02 pm
Posts: 672
Location: Europe
Post 
when i have a look on the skaven i think individual armyrules can be fluffy and don't affect the ballancing too much.
but the ASF rule IS broken... there were many discussions in this forum and there is no need to repeat it again - but when i think of the asur and 3attack S7 vampirecavalry i am afraid Mandavar is absolutely right! several armybooks will need much more time than ours (for release) and creating this 'ballancegap' is unfair and especially unnecessary

_________________
At last, we will have revenge...


Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:11 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:39 pm
Posts: 1975
Location: Returned from the East
Post 
ASF broken? Bit of a sweeping statement there.

Its insanely good against our elite infantry but we are due a redo which should hopefully restore balance.


Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:40 am
Profile
Arnold Layne
Arnold Layne
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:44 am
Posts: 3398
Location: On Her Majesty Morathi's Secret Service
Post 
I'd like to make point about AWR's generally. They impose a certain character on the army, which is, in my opinion, both a blessing and a curse. One of the beauties of the Dark Elf army at the present is we have a great deal of freedom in the matter of deciding the character of our own armies for ourselves. If we get an AWR like spite or hatred - or both -then we have to write that into our army background.

Without an AWR, we all get to decide how our Druchii think, and design our Army Lists around that. People who say the Druchii hate can take WE and CoB, and hate-hatey-hate-hate everyone, and people who say they are dispassionate psychopaths can make sure to take plenty of Execs/Assassins, and people who say they they think of the other races as cheap labour or fertilizer, can take Corsairs, and we'll all take lots of DR and Shades and live murderously ever after. O what joy and huge sentence.

A. Arthur Layne Esq.

_________________
Layne
Global Moderator. Everything but the weather.


Caveat Numptor.


Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite


Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:13 am
Profile
Slave (off the Altar)
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 8:29 pm
Posts: 13
Location: abandoned asylum
Post 
Lakissov wrote:
... I will be glad if the people who think that it is not possible to play DE without some funky army-wide special rule will drop the army - that would help to keep its reputation as a general's, not whiner's army.


Who exactly said the guys hoping for an AWR would be the ones droping the Druchii? Perhaps it will be just the other way round?
All I was trying to say is that GW pretty damn well knows there are issues right now and have been even more so before the Update to our book. All in all one could come to the conclusion that GW actually IS concerned about the Druchii players and probably reading our posts right now :-). Because they want to sell us things. My company tries to find out what a customer might like before (re-)designing a product. GW damn sure does as well.
Therefore it is not useless to write your opinion.

cheers

iKaRuS

_________________
Disclaimer:
If it sounds sarcastic don't take it seriously.
If it sounds dangerous do not try this at home or at all.
And if it offends you: just don't listen to it.


Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:37 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 81 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software