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Spite + Hatred vs ASF 

Given the indiciations that we *are* getting Hatred as an AWR, would the addition of spite offset the caveats of hatred, and be a proper counter to ASF?
Yes, Spite + Hatred would be a reasonable compromise 54%  54%  [ 33 ]
No, I would prefer something other than spite 38%  38%  [ 23 ]
No, Hatred by itself will suffice 8%  8%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 61

Spite + Hatred vs ASF 
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Malekith's Best Friend
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the question is not whether Spite is enough to counter SoA, but whether it is a proper counter.

to me, it still feels that this is not a good one. I suppose that if we are to get some psychology-related rule against asur only, then it should be 'cause fear'
but I think that eternal hetred is enough (given that we also get boosts to individual units)


Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:10 am
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Lakissov said:
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still, the example with executioners is not correct. if they get to ignore armour, they will just not be meant to be used against other infantry - they will be cavalry busters. even if they charge the front of a cavalry unit, they will very likely win (even if the opposing cavalry has ASF). charging the flank, they win even more likely. ergo, the opponent will be reluctant to open his cavalry units to charges from executioners.

No. When you are able to charge a heavy cavalry unit with your exec´s, then is your opponent in most cases bad. Sorry, but in most cases you are the guy, who is charged by an enemy (cavalry vs your infantery), if you cannot´t prevent the unit with your bate units. Therefore helps Spite, because without you have the dead ones at your side. Your example shows, that the executioner work with spite very well for the role, you supposed them. With spite the opponent think twice, if he charges you.
On the other hand, i don´t think too linear, the Executioners would work not only against cavalry with the no armour boost, they can handle heavy armour troops or units with high T also (Chaos, dwarfs, orks,....).
Elite units are specialised, obviously, but in no that small corridor you think perhaps.
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but do you really think that all our elites should be like that? I don't

I don´t think so too. The spite don´t change the roles of our units, this is another thread. The changes in the units makes them different and special, not a AWR IMO.
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the question is not whether Spite is enough to counter SoA, but whether it is a proper counter.

From the options, that are now going from rumour-board to rumour-board, it´s not the worst one. It´s a more proper counter than AWH (in tabula rasa view without any other unit changes of course).


Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:05 pm
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This is just a though but wouldnt a good counter to SoA be to just make the dark elves faster then the HE. I mean if there initiative is lower then their rule is like void.

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Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:06 pm
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Only if you also have strike first. Otherwise a higher initiative is worthless. Besides, the initiaive is good. We are afterall elves. I for one am awaiting the final testemant to this argument. What rules we recieve is entirly up to GW.

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Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:21 pm
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Mr. Anderson wrote:
Sulla wrote:
No argument there. 'Spite' is pretty much just ASF-lite. It's worse in that it doesn't reward the DE player for bfinging foot heroes and champions like ASF does but it still fosters exactly the same tactics


what is your point? that is exactly what i said, just with an explanation and different phrasing.

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Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:30 pm
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whoops :oops: sorry, i got the "No argument there" as: "there is no argument - you don´t say anything with sense"
sorry for that.

HUZZAH!

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Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:57 am
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Lakissov wrote:
and I will be glad if the people who think that it is not possible to play DE without some funky army-wide special rule will drop the army - that would help to keep its reputation as a general's, not whiner's army.

Amen. This whinefest is a shame over the whole of Naggaroth.

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Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:34 pm
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scactha wrote:
Lakissov wrote:
and I will be glad if the people who think that it is not possible to play DE without some funky army-wide special rule will drop the army - that would help to keep its reputation as a general's, not whiner's army.

Amen. This whinefest is a shame over the whole of Naggaroth.


It must be me, as I really don't see a "whinefest" anywhere on this forum. Just people discussing pro's and cons of things.

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Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:25 pm
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Lakissov wrote:
the question is not whether Spite is enough to counter SoA, but whether it is a proper counter.

to me, it still feels that this is not a good one. I suppose that if we are to get some psychology-related rule against asur only, then it should be 'cause fear'
but I think that eternal hetred is enough (given that we also get boosts to individual units)


Cause fear? Wow, what are you thinking? The Asur aren't afraid of the Druchii.


Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:35 pm
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Quote:
Amen. This whinefest is a shame over the whole of Naggaroth.


Yeah, people on warseer has been saying that druchii players are as whiny as High elves of the past.

Personally, I do not like spite as a rule. I find it uncreative and it does not penalize druchii players for bad game play. I expect to see more units of executioners since they can outfight most warhammer units even if the druchii lose models first.

Personally I find the armor piercing rule quite a good one. Druchii has been known to be able to deliver lots of attacks (rxbs, corsairs, witch elves) but these has often amount to nothing due to the boost in toughness and armor of units in the game. armor piercing sounds a good way to improve effectiveness(only for melee weapons though as ap1 rxb are too good). Our rxbs can have poison as an alternatives (rxbs in real world fire poison bolts too)

As for the issue of High Elf pwnage. Personally I do not see a power creep in vampire counts, s7 but 1 wound super expensive knights, non skirmishing ghouls and a weaker lore has convince me that warhammer is not going through the power creep. High Elves are an exception and a abomination. I do not mind having a serious disadvantage vs high elves as long as our army book is balanced against other warhammer armies.

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Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:45 pm
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Quote:
Cause fear? Wow, what are you thinking? The Asur aren't afraid of the Druchii.
If GW were to decide that this is a good and balanced rule to have, it would be no problem to create background for justifying that. Like, "the raiders of Naggaroth have been terrorizing the populace of Ulthuan for millenia, and have displayed such cruelty that a single notice of the druchii sends a wave of fear through the souls of asur". Really, this is not about the fluff (hey, SoA is not fluffy, but it is a great rule, which works well with asur army), but about how armies work. To me, it seems like a rule which would be very balanced for Druchii to have against asur. (though I still think that this is not necessary - eternal hatred wil do, given that we have changes to individual units)


Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:59 pm
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It would conflict in background terms with courage of ages. Not a good rule at all.

Looks like hatred/eternal hatred with tweaks to units. If we get something else, great, if we dont I suppose well just have to suck it and see.


Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:02 pm
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Venkh wrote:
It would conflict in background terms with courage of ages. Not a good rule at all.

Looks like hatred/eternal hatred with tweaks to units. If we get something else, great, if we dont I suppose well just have to suck it and see.


Background can be changed easily enough to justify game balance. Is anyone complaining that SoA doesn't fit the background of the HE? It's not like there is any real fluff reason that HE should be supernaturally quicker than either DE or WE...


Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:15 am
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actually, there's no contradiction. to me, the Courage of Ages more symbolizes the arrogance that Asur have and their stubborn determination never to show their fear in the face of their hated enemy. Which doesn't mean that they aren't afraid of the descendents of the people who once populated Nagarythe - the kindgdom, people of which had always been feared by the rest of Ulthuan, from the times of Aenarion himself - a fear reinforced by millenia of constant raids and plunder. Yes, you can tell to yourself that you are strong and fearless, and this inner determination wil initially help you out, when your regiment suffers the hail of crossbow bolts or when your feared enemy charges you, but the time will come, and you will lose your nerve. When the enemies that had always been known through your land as the most cruel of all elves and that are known to torture their captives to death in the grim land of Naggaroth, better you in combat, and are ready to take you captive, you just throw away your mask of calmness and run for your life.


Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:39 am
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The courage rule is brand new, I doubt theyd override a race specific rule so soon. The high elves are used to our terror tactics and arent intimidated by them. Personally i dont think they would fear, death, capture or slavery if it meant saving their comrades.

Trying to claim that they are only pretending not to be scared is pushing things a little.

Besides the rule would be almost useless anyway. Firstly the get to reroll all fear tests at min ld 8. Thats a 90% + pass rate. secondly ASF goes a long way to ensuring that they dont lose combats.

This sounds too much like my joke syggestion of reroll arour saves for S5 or greater. Sounds fine intill you look at the context.


Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:03 am
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My view is.....

I understand the concern Druchii players have with regards to what special rules we should have in consideration of HE ASF, but there are so many differing opinions from Druchii players that we are unlikely to have a real impact on the final decision. It might be different if Druchii.net as a whole took a majority vote on a particular rule or rules.

My advice is wait and see what happens. I think that enough has been said on this topic and in the end what will be will be. I am sure that the author(s) of the 7th edition DE AB will be sensible in their final decisions.

The army books seem to be getting better and better. I am sure that ours will be no exception.


Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:18 am
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I thinks you are too pessimistic about Speed of Asurian, Venkh. I wouldn't say it guarantees that we never win combats against Asur. It just means that we can't afford to charge the front in most cases (though in some we actually can).

As for causing fear against asur, I don't think that we really need that. But it would be nice to have it, seeing as the efficiency of our units in CC against HE has been reduced somewhat, and the victories are going to be more marginal so auto-breaking would be nice. Oh and the chance to pass a test at Ld 8 with reroll is 92.28%, which means that almost every tenth time their ASF would be dampened by hitting us on 6-s. The rule wouldn't be overpowered, but it would be helpful.

As for the fluff thing, I didn't mean that Asur just pretend to be courageous. Mo way - they truly are. I meant that they kind of try to cheer themselves up, not wanting to display a hint of fear to themselves. Not pretending before others, but trying to persuade themselves that they don't fear. But, you know, even in the asur book it says that Naggarythe of Aenarion's time was the most feared kingdom of Ulthuan (feared by elves themselves).


Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:18 am
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Quote:
I thinks you are too pessimistic about Speed of Asurian, Venkh. I wouldn't say it guarantees that we never win combats against Asur. It just means that we can't afford to charge the front in most cases (though in some we actually can).


I said that it goes a long way to ensuring that they dont lose combats, not that it guarantees victory. We can indeed win combats by hitting flanks, using witches with wider frontage or allowing our spearmen to be charged (this works well vs high elf spearmen) and then theres always the luck of the dice.

Personally i dont find my opponents meekly offering me the flanks of their units to attack. If you need to hit the flanks of a roughly equal sized or slightly smaller force to win combats then something is wrong.

We cant have too many rules cluttering up the book. Personally i think that eternal hatered is a given vs high elves if we end up hating everyone. IMO that only leaves room for one army wide rule. If we get one at all I want it to be something that gives us a real advantage in a phase of the game.


Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:58 am
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Venkh wrote:
We cant have too many rules cluttering up the book. Personally i think that eternal hatered is a given vs high elves if we end up hating everyone. IMO that only leaves room for one army wide rule. If we get one at all I want it to be something that gives us a real advantage in a phase of the game.


I just hope they don't make the book a rule-strosity like the WE book where you spend more time flicking between unit rules, army entries, magic items and spites than playing the damn game. But it does go to show, elves are tricky things to get right without that level of detail or something as powerful as SoA.


Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:15 pm
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Actually Sulla, I think the Wood Elf book is one of the nicest books GW have done lately. I'd love it if Druchii were done like that.

Individual special rules are always much more fun than army-wide ones.

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Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:48 pm
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From a fluffy point of view, Dark Elves are not near as Elite as High Elves. The main bulk of the Dark Elf armies are made by foot sloggers from the army. Spearmen, RxB warriors and Corsairs a-plenty! There's also less empathy among Druchii than among Asuryans. We treat anyone of lower ranks as slaves and like to plot against those of equal or higher ranks. If I had my way, I'd include something that represented this. If the High Elves got 6 Special slots and 4 rare, the Dark Elf emphasize would be on cheap expendable soldiers that the lords and generals don't care much for. Dark Elves is also (as far as I know) a growing race compared to the Asur. Thus, having bigger armies of less training makes fluff sense to me.

And if the new list is a Khaine-themed as rumours have it, maybe we can see Executioners or Witch Elves become core with a Highborn is leading the army? Stuff like that can really put flavour to any Druchii army.

As for an army-wide rule, hatred is both fluffy and decently balanced. I'd love it from a fluff perspective, but it would be hard to learn how to operate the new army when you are forced for pursue fleeing enemies. Whenever you charge you must be watchful for the event of the enemy breaking. You might pursue into a bad position...

~ Nag

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Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:40 pm
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Nagathi wrote:
From a fluffy point of view, Dark Elves are not near as Elite as High Elves. The main bulk of the Dark Elf armies are made by foot sloggers from the army. Spearmen, RxB warriors and Corsairs a-plenty! There's also less empathy among Druchii than among Asuryans. We treat anyone of lower ranks as slaves and like to plot against those of equal or higher ranks. If I had my way, I'd include something that represented this. If the High Elves got 6 Special slots and 4 rare, the Dark Elf emphasize would be on cheap expendable soldiers that the lords and generals don't care much for. Dark Elves is also (as far as I know) a growing race compared to the Asur. Thus, having bigger armies of less training makes fluff sense to me.

And if the new list is a Khaine-themed as rumours have it, maybe we can see Executioners or Witch Elves become core with a Highborn is leading the army? Stuff like that can really put flavour to any Druchii army.

As for an army-wide rule, hatred is both fluffy and decently balanced. I'd love it from a fluff perspective, but it would be hard to learn how to operate the new army when you are forced for pursue fleeing enemies. Whenever you charge you must be watchful for the event of the enemy breaking. You might pursue into a bad position...

~ Nag


From a purely fluff standpoint:
1. The Dark Elf population isn't nearly as large as that of the high elves. The bulk of the Druchii's ancestors originated from Nagarythe, only one of the many states of Ulthuan.

2. Compunding that, Druchii society is fraught with murderous skullduggery. It culls the weak, the witless, and the unskilled. And let us not forget that Druchii are killed in alarming numbers in the temples of Khaine as sacrifices (not just slaves and captives). Therefore, the Druchii population simply cannot grow (or more aptly, decline less quickly) than their kin in Ulthuane.

By #2 alone, natural selection would simply make the average Dark Elf more skilled, cunning, and viscious than your average bear. If the High Elves are an army of elites because of their longevity, discipline, and martial prowess, Dark Elves should be equally so considering the forces of natural selection present in the society in which they must survive.

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Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:00 pm
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Yeah I'm sure the Shadow Warriors and Alith Anar, as well as Eltharion's army assaulting Naggaroth and Naggarond are all AFRAID, petrified of the Druchii.

No, Causes Fear against High Elves is just not possible.
Cold One Knights & Chariots as well as all the big monsters already cause Fear/Terror.


Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:13 pm
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Quote:
voted for "something other than spite"

There are two reasons:
1. I don't like us to have a rule that is designed solely for the purpose of negating the rule of the asur. I still think that we should have a rule against the asur, but it should be a characterful one, not a one designed with the intention of cancelling the benefit they get from SoA. I think, eternal hatred woud be characterful.
Oh, and on a side note, I don't think that SoA is overpowered, so please don't complain about it, it just sounds silly when people go "oh, they got new shiny stuff, I want it to be taken away from them and if I can't take it away from them, I want something for myself that lets me ignore it".

2. The "other thing" that I would like to have for our army is small but efficient tweaks to all of our units; for example 'raiders' for corsairs, 'ignore armor' for executioners, 'never lose frenzy' for witches, ItP for BG, 'hide in enemy units' for assassins and other stuff like this. We need those little tweaks in all individual units, not some lame army-wide rule.
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I would much rather GW came up with a new rule for our Dark Elves that allowed it to fight all armies, not just HE. Maybe more Monsters, or a better ability to maniputlate them, with stronger BM. Maybe a stronger magic phase. Anything but a direct answer to HE abilities.


Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:29 pm
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Ideally i would like to see a fast, fragile but absolutely deadly dark elf list, as dangerous in attack as the high elves are in defence.

We should fold like tissue paper if we get charged or shot at (as we do now) but if we hit the enemy ourselves they should really know about it.

Of all the kindreds the dark elves are the most dedicated to warfare and strife and spend the most time in armed service. If any of the three should be the most deadly in combat it should be the dark elves.

I dont buy into this idea of a dark elf horde army at all. A general may not particularly care about the warriors in his command but if he fails to use them intelligently he will find himself in hot water.

The drawbacks of hatred have been widely discussed and will be familiar to most posters. Personally I think that Nagathi is correct about the drawback but i dont agree that it is fluffy.


Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:35 pm
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