Spite + Hatred vs ASF

Scareypete · Post by **Scareypete** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:24 pm

@ Monkeylord You like being the wet blanket don't you. Of ocurse GW is currently discussinf Hatred as our AWR... but hold out some level of hope man. I only knew about this forum when I was readying the Druchii Revisited section on the GW website. That itself is Proof that what we say and debate here matters. People suggetsed things that restored some of the balance to Druchii in last addition and the Devs made it Law... SO now that we have Dwarves, Empire, Orcs and High Elves out with new Army Books... we can see the Power Creep rearing up and we have played these armies new and old and knwo how thta creep effects us. You sourself WANT a better AWR than hatred.. so why rain on peoples parades when it has bene proven that people on this forum have th epower to effect the Dev's minds. The Point of these debatess isn't to sit back and moan or whine about what *might* Happen in a year. It is to suggest better Idea's that we have tried out or pieced together in our heads.

The important thing when suggesting improvements to individual units or an Army wide rule is to remember Balance. People often suggest things that garauntee victories against their chosen rivals. I usually Tie my opponents when I play any of my armies unless it is against the skaven. They kick my ass avery time. Fo between Slight defeat to Narrow victory is my range with our current rules... A Balanced rule would keep it that way. The Smashing victories come form Amazing army composition, brilliant tactical mastery and lucky as hell dice rolling. As long as a pair of Stoned Monkeys can pair off with 2 armies and result in a tie they are balanced.

Some lists can easily be made unbalanced vs specific opponents yet weak against others. and all cavalry DE force is awesoem.. till it runs into a Horde of Skaven who bog them down into prolonged close combat. Or get shot to peices by Cannons.

Spite as an AWR might drive up our points value a little... but it adds balance to the High Elves.. and doesn't upset our current balance against other armies... We *should* be strieing them first anyways so spite doesn't create a disgusting advantage against Chaos or Orcs, and simply Speeds up the slaughter against our Hated rivals.

And I still insist that spite IS fluffy.

I also would still rathe rhave Armor piercing.

Here's some individual unit change Ideas...

Warriors Fight in 3 ranks.

RXB's Either Range 30" or STR4, or Armor Piercing, or Lose the -1 penalty ofr multiple shots

Corsairs - Allow Shields as an option.

Dark Riders - Champion Not only +1 BS but also +1 Attk

Witch elves - Spite,

Cold One Knights - Allow Sea Dragon Cloaks as an option.

Executioners - Ignore Armor Saves.

Harpies - S4, T4

Black Guard - Allow Sea Dragon Cloak as an Option.

Assassins - Allow RXB's as an equipment option.

But thats a lot of wishfull thinking and I don't have the Dev's ear. Otherwise we would have Slaves as a troop choice. (see my post int he everything slave topic on how I would do slaves)

Mandavar bloodlust · Post by **Mandavar bloodlust** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:34 pm

The RXBs need really an update shooting with them is at the moment like throwing eggs against a wall to the most enemy formations... Also the Assassins i dont see them so often anymore in games even i still like to use them for a nostalgic reason. But i think your suggestions sound good to me, would make a sense. Exept the slaves the DEs should not degenerate to a horde army like skaven.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:48 am

Mandavar Bloodlust wrote:The RXBs need really an update shooting with them is at the moment like throwing eggs against a wall to the most enemy formations...

But it must be a subtle change. You don't want to make them so good that enemies have to face hordes of dark riders and shades plunking away and then fleeing all game.

I could see shades being able to buy poision for theirs to harrass large monsters but mainly, armour piercing or increased accuracy would be enough, I think.

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:08 am

sulla wrote:I could see shades being able to buy poision for theirs to harass large monsters but mainly, armour piercing or increased accuracy would be enough, I think

increased accuracy would make our units better at shooting than WE are currently - and they are supposed to be the shooty ones, aren´t they ???

armour piercing would be mad against units with t3 and a 2+ save - everyone would scream cheese. and how do you think a bolt from a repeater crossbow is going to be better at piercing armor than a bolt from a regular crossbow - it just doesn´t fit.

hatred + spite would be hardcore - and it would completely overrun the idea of ASF: you kill your opponents because you don´t want them to kill you and that is the reason you kill them as quickly as possible. there is no point killing them, if they kill you even after you killed them (that job is left to zombies). this means that the bonus HE have gotten from ASF is mostly negated - they kill us, and then, as if nothing happened we still kill them. the best example would be executioners: you kill them, because they strike after you. but you killed them and they then kill you. ASF doesn´t change anything in this case - you would have struck first anyway and along come dark elves and don´t care whether they are dead or not.
what is my point?
easy: against ASF, Spite would take almost 100% of the bonus HE get away - the only thing that remains is that they killed a few of our troops. but i heard people argue about the fact that ASF makes movement largely pointless for HE (and thus, it takes the biggest part of tactics from this army away because the system or warhammer relies on movement) and now everyone likes spite, which is almost as bad as ASF - whether a charging opponent killed you or not doesn´t matter - you still attack (it doesn´t take as much tactics away as ASF though - where ASF takes at leas 75% away, spite only takes about 50%) of the tactics away. this is my point.

HUZZAH!

Saithis · Post by **Saithis** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:29 am

you have a point here Anderson - but spite would only against the asur. if you have to face them now there is no tactics involved anyway - just shooting magic und let them come to run them down with your chariots.
this rule would allow us to use our normal units again - and thats the most important point

besides i don't like spite and ASF

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:46 am

well, against current asur it doesn't boil down to just chariots and shoting. remember, their attacks are just S3 (except elite infantry). when charged in the flank, most asur units will be pretty much doomed, because, except elite infantry, what the flanker will face is just 2-3 S3 attacks. Even dark riders won't lose more than one casualty to that. the only trick that this ASF did is that now, instead of simply charging, you should strive to charge into the flank. well, in fact, that has always been the goal for me anyway - be it asur with ASF or not, what I ultimately try to achieve is a charge with my cavalry in the flank and with my chariots and infantry in the front. so please stop repeating how broken ASF on asur is and how it fundamentally changes the way we have to play the game against them, and instead just play the game.

Mandavar bloodlust · Post by **Mandavar bloodlust** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:24 am

Then you are in the wrong topic Lakissov, this is about ASF and Spite, Hatred and whatever.

And you are rigth you have to flank them out. But unfortunately its not that easy, I played against HE with the ASF and I tried it but even against their formations with spears its pretty heavy to win. Usually I ignore their spearmen because they give not many VPs in comparsion to their Elite units but those are even worse especially the White Lions were the death to my COKs and Executioners.

Im really forced in the next game to use mor chariots, more shooting and magic and drop most of the normal CC units. Just annoying way to play.

Scareypete · Post by **Scareypete** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:59 am

More over than that, The way we tailor our armies to face off against High Elves will cripple us against a Horde army. And a CHariot Heavy list is a cannoners Dream opponent.

So more importantly countering ASF weakens our ability in Tournaments. Our local club does tournaments every 2-3 months. $5 entry and Pretty nice Prizes on the line. Now I'm not gonna say I'm all about winning because I have never placed First in a tournament. But our last tournament there were 3-4 Armies that could easily be the menace to a DE force. An Empire Gun Line, A Lizardman force with a ton of Salamanders and kroxigors. A High Elf army with the Dragon mage and a couple lion chariots and a HUGE skaven Horde.

If you showed up with 3 chariots and 2 RBT's that only leaves you with Core and characters for the rest of your army. Your good March blocking shades or harpies are gone, your heavy hitting executioners and cavalry are gone, your bane of all infantry witch elves are gone. In tournaments you either bring a flexible list and get stuck facing the high elves or you bring a Shooty chariot list to deal with the high elves and end up with 300 points worth of dead chariots by round 2 and cavalry and war machine hunters taking care of your RXB's and RBT's.

Spite Balances us with the High Elves without tipping the scales too drastically against other armies that we would most likely be striking first.

@ Mr. Anderson you are correct and I didn't see it on the executioners who normally strike last in other rounds of combat. they would suddenly be brutal to face... becuase even if you survive round one an dkill the front rank of them in round 2... they will Kill you as they die. For 6 years I have hear dpeople crying that executioners weren't a good unit and they needed a little something. Now with Spite they could have just that. 2 rounds of garaunteed killing with them. Just as old swordmasters sucked, now everyone is afraid of them becuase there really isn't an easy way to beat them in close combat other than outnumbering them with Terror or fear in the flank and rear. We would have amazing balance... just charge their Swordmasters with our executioners and watch both units die in 2 rounds.

One issue I see with Spite is banner capturing. In my favorite scenarios the deadly frightening Swordmasters face executioners or Witch elves... in most of thos escenarios they might have won victory and carried our banner away form a pile of pretty corpses... but with spite suddenly they may have won.... but thye are all comepletely dead as well. So no capture dbanner for either side imo... can't capture anything if the victors are slain under the corpses of the vanquished.

Also @ Mr. Anderson Armor piercing RXB''s isn't that brutal against heavily armored troops... its still a S3 weapon. Shooting as some T4 SV 1 Chaos knights negating one point of armor save doesn't amount to much. I only suggest one single improvement to the RXB.. not all of them... if they suddenly became Range 30, S4, Armor piercing without a penalty for multiple shots they would cost 7 points per model as upgrades to Warriors and probably 10 for shades and dark riders. (and probably be worth it) Nope just one of the above so I don't have to roll 20 dice to hit... 10 dice to wound an dwatch my opponent pass both armor saves that they end up taking.

I still don't think we need Hatred against other races though. Spite alone would balance us as we are vs the HE and wouldn't unbalance us against the empire or orcs etc....

My ideas for a slave unit would REQUIRE us to take Beast masters for every 1-2 units of slaves... so it would make a new variant of the DE army... not turn us into a horde army. Many players wouldn't want to spend their hero choices on pitifull beast masters just to take a unit or 2 of slow moving, dim witted weak clumsy and frail chumps. But it would allow you the flexibility to create a slave variant list in adition to our cavalry lists, magic lists, Big monster lists... and give us a possible greater balanced list for tourney's.

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:09 pm

Mandavar Bloodlust wrote:Then you are in the wrong topic Lakissov, this is about ASF and Spite, Hatred and whatever.

There were several people who base their arguments for spite on the perceived impossibility of fighting against new asur with our current list without specifically tailoring it. I refuted this argument, nothing more, nothing less.

Sorceress · Post by **Sorceress** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:24 pm

Mandavar Bloodlust wrote:Thats what I definately mean Sorceress!!!!!!!!!!! You are 200% right. Especially the Druchii famous for beeing the best warriors of the elves are in skills so far behind the High Elves and there is no reason why. Wich unit of the Druchii has Strength 4? The HEs have. Wich Druchii unit can strike always first (except the hidden Assassin)? The list goes on and on and as I wrote in a another topic I hope GW will do the right things in the new DE book. It becomes more and more ridicioulus. In 5 years the HEs have instead of an army a big red (of course Magic) button they have to push so the enemy dies instantly. What a rubbish.

I would sooner there be no fundamental (not to mention outright unnecessary) disparity between what are members of the same race. To make significant physical distinctions between High Elves, Wood Elves and (of course) Dark Elves feels like something out of a Dungeons and Dragons campaign setting.

Let the Asur keep their silly special rule, soon the Dark Elves will rule all of Faerûn! I mean Ulthuan.... Yes!

Post by **Rork** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:50 pm

Dark Elves and High Elves should not have rules that (effectively) cancel each other out - That would be daft.

Hatred did not cancel out stoic (or its successor) - they represent the attitude of each other in the face of one another. In effect, their existing characteristics become exaggerated. A dark elf getting a broadsword through his neck is highly unlikely to be able to take down the swordmaster who dealt the blow in an act of spite.

So if anything, I'd expect hatred to be boosted vs High Elves, or something similar.

GW could always bring back obedience tests...they were characterful

.

Post by **Layne** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:12 pm

Fair point that. The Big M does all he can to keep his subjects cold and heartless. He doesn't want us hating the world anymore than he wants us loving it(ugh). And you can't hve either of those without the other!

He doesn't want his troops being swayed by his emotions, but in the case of HE, not even the Witch King himself can hold us back. Because, you see, we hate those arrogant jerks of Ulthuan so much. The jerks. They stole our land, then they SUNK it, the sons of b*atches. And we'll get them for it. The jerks.

An upgraded army wide rule would certainly help, but I would rather each unit be more individually viable, I mean there are so many options in the Dark Elf book, between the Dark Art, the Temple of Khaine, and all those other magic items that pretty much NEVER get used. Which is the real problem with the DE army at the moment.

We have so many tricks up our sleeve, but they are mostly so incredibly unlikely to come off, that we all just give up on them, things like the Rubric, or the Ring of Hotek, which ought to be fun, but just don't happen.

Ok, now I need to take a breath.

A. Arthur Layne, Esq.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:17 am

Mr. Anderson wrote:
sulla wrote:I could see shades being able to buy poision for theirs to harass large monsters but mainly, armour piercing or increased accuracy would be enough, I think

increased accuracy would make our units better at shooting than WE are currently - and they are supposed to be the shooty ones, aren´t they ???

Increased accuracy as in no penalty for moving and shooting or no penalty for multiple shot. This would mean, yes, they are more damaging at close range than WE archers, but since in practice, DE often only get one volley at close range per game, so what?

armour piercing would be mad against units with t3 and a 2+ save - everyone would scream cheese. and how do you think a bolt from a repeater crossbow is going to be better at piercing armor than a bolt from a regular crossbow - it just doesn´t fit.

for the first part, I can't see how.each hit would have about one in six chance of killing those models you mentioned. and each elf is already hitting much less than all the time. For the second part, just make up some fluff to justify it. After all, why do HE strike first? Why don't WE suffer movement penalties for shooting cumbersome longbows? Why do dwarf guns get +1 to hit? This is a game. The fluff comes afterwards to justify the rule in many cases.

now everyone likes spite, which is almost as bad as ASF - whether a charging opponent killed you or not doesn´t matter - you still attack (it doesn´t take as much tactics away as ASF though - where ASF takes at leas 75% away, spite only takes about 50%) of the tactics away. this is my point.

HUZZAH!

No argument there. 'Spite' is pretty much just ASF-lite. It's worse in that it doesn't reward the DE player for bringing foot heroes and champions like ASF does but it still fosters exactly the same tactics.

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:37 am

@Sulla:

1) no penalty for moving and shooting is a WE rule. we are not going to get it. no penalty for multiple shots would be similar to +1 BS, and that means we are better at shooting than WE. and that would mean that we would basically be better at shooting than anyone else.

2) ok. maybe not cheesy, but the point about real crossbows and ours still stands. GW still tries to be realistic, after all. and as i said: our crossbows are not as good at penetrating armor as guns are.

Sulla wrote:No argument there. 'Spite' is pretty much just ASF-lite. It's worse in that it doesn't reward the DE player for bfinging foot heroes and champions like ASF does but it still fosters exactly the same tactics

what is your point? that is exactly what i said, just with an explanation and different phrasing.

HUZZAH!

Ikarus · Post by **Ikarus** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:23 am

The whole point in the discussion about spite is that when fighting the Asur 75% of my troops become worthless. I do not really want spite, I just want my units back in some kind of usefull shape.
I know that there are some out there who feel different. But well, it just does not work for me. There are no Spearmen to charge in the flank to maybe win 'cause those s3 attacks are not that evil.
What I am facing is 2x10 Archers and loads of small White Lions and Phoenix Guard units.
My opponent plays MSU, and his list is just so much better than what I have, he owns me. Darn, even his scouts need to be charged by some really fat unit.
If I had wanted to play static games using a gunline I'd have started dwarves. For me, my army just does not work in the way witch made me choose it in the first place anymore.

Sorry 'bout the rambling, but it really drives me insane...

Saithis · Post by **Saithis** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:49 am

you are right ikarus...

and it sounds kinda funny to me if someone says: outmanoeuvre him...

sure no problem against an army which is basically at same speed - but has faster heavy cav. and chariots - oh these are reliable...

i don't know what HE armies you guys are facing - but my friend still plays some cav. and chariots (in addition to his small elite infantry). and if i am able to get some DR to a point where i can charge him there is a good chance that his shooting and/or magic is redirected to these poor guys until they are no threat anymore...

thats why i field massive shooting and magic + chariots against HE. works perfectly against T3 units and even T4 chariots...
we are playing this game for more than 10 years now - he knows how to move his units and he knows better than to run after a bait-unit

last week he played vs a lizzi-player... both had a larger group of spears (elves vs saurus) - and no one wanted to charge. strangest thing i saw for some time now... :shock:

Venkh · Post by **Venkh** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:49 am

So if anything, I'd expect hatred to be boosted vs High Elves, or something similar.

Like eternal hatred - personally i think its a given that if we end up hating everyone we will still hate high elves that little bit more.

Doesnt even start to balance the the high elf rules though, If this happens i we would need improvements to units or a reduction in points value.

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:53 am

@Saithis
You are right, it is not so easy to autmanoeuvre an army that has the same, and sometimes even higher, movement than you. However, the chariots and cavalry in HE book didn't really receive much of a boost from SoA. SoA doesn't really change the way in which you treat asur chariots and cavalry, it changes the way in which you treat asur infantry. And as for that one - they do indeed have les movement than your cavalry and chariots, so you can still outmanpeuvre them.

Which leads to the conclusion that if you were playing a CC-based list against the asur before, then you can keep doing just that also now. SoA doesn't forec you to drastically hange your army composition, which means that it would be stupid to introduce to a dark elf army a special rule specifically for the purpose of negating the special rule that the asur have.

Personally I am already sure that we will have hatred against everyone and eternal hatred against asur. I also hope that we will receive little miice tweaks to the units: raiding corsairs (same cost or 11), armor-ignoring execs with no KB (for 13-14 pts), never losing frenzy witches (for 13-14 pts), itp BG with some more tweaks (for 15 pts), 2A M8 cold ones (then stupidity isn't that bad for same price of cok, and coc can even be priced at 105 with spears), cityguard for 9/elf with shields, usual spears as now, crossbows for 3 pts on warriors and 4 pts on dr, assassin as is but can hide in enemy units, more agressive dark magic, reworked magic items. To me, it seems, that changes like that are much more needed to our army than a plain army wide rule. If we do get the required changes to units, you will see yourself how the all-hated universal hatred will start working in our favor (because, in essence, hatred means that you kill 33%-50% more in first round of CC than without hatred)

Darathel · Post by **Darathel** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:52 pm

Rork said:

A dark elf getting a broadsword through his neck is highly unlikely to be able to take down the swordmaster who dealt the blow in an act of spite.

A High elf archer is IMO definitly unable to strike against a charging Blood Dragon, Chaos Lord, Black Guard,.... but he can.

Lakissov said:

You are right, it is not so easy to autmanoeuvre an army that has the same, and sometimes even higher, movement than you. However, the chariots and cavalry in HE book didn't really receive much of a boost from SoA. SoA doesn't really change the way in which you treat asur chariots and cavalry, it changes the way in which you treat asur infantry. And as for that one - they do indeed have les movement than your cavalry and chariots, so you can still outmanpeuvre them.

Well, it works, when your opponent plays with a lot of infanterie. I think, the most Asur-player still take some cavalry and chariots with them, so its in most cases balanced in movement cases. It depends on the players, but its not so easy as you try to show.

To the point of the thread:
It´s a fact, that we need some things to balance the Asur (and other armies) - what are the possibilities?
- changes in every unit - i hope so, characterful for every unit of us
We don´t get first strike, so how can we deal with it? The Asur have this big advantage, how we can survive in a balanced way?
- T4 - no way for elves
- super heavy armour - i don´t think, we will get some
- big pointdecrease - not my favorite, we should be an elite army
- more movement options - when we get a boost in movement in which way ever it would cool, but every opponent will call "cheeese"
- some changes in shooting - we are not WE, we should be aggressive (IMO)
- eternal hatred (without anything in addition) - what use have my dead executioners with the option to reroll hits?
- spite: as Rork mentioned, in some cases not realistic and fluffy, but it would solve a lot of problems with the asur and against other armies (like bretonia). It is more fair than ASF, because your charging enemy have the opportunity for strike, they still suffer from their charge. In the most cases we are the charging guys, so it would not be very overpowerd and solve some ASF questions.
If you find another solve for the problem which provides a balanced game, with the option to take all of our units for a battle again, than post it please, iam interested in.

Mandavar bloodlust · Post by **Mandavar bloodlust** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:10 pm

I would suggest cityguard formations again, warriors plus 1 Strength in attack.

RXBs armor piercing and no -1 on large distances.

DRs, dont know so far... they are good as they are IMO.

Shades, nothing wen the RXBs changes like above or Ballistic skill 5 like they had before.

Witch Elves, dont know so far... maybe a 5+ Save Roll ( dont know how its named in english i hope you know what i mean)

Executioners, strength 4 or a second attack but this is maybe too evil.

COKs, Strenght 4 or an impact damage.

COCs, nothing IMO good like they are

BG, same as Executioners

OK before i get stabed and my corpse thrown to the cold ones :badh:

i know something is wishful thinking and with all of those suggestions i made the DEs would be overpowered, i just wrote down what is on my mind.

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:23 pm

@ Darathiel:
you are exaggeratign a bit when you are listing options and trying to make them look like they are really not an option. I would say, that most of the options are indeed viable.

- T4 - no way for elves

You really think so? What about the fact that we already have a T5 AS4+ chariot? What if our COK became a monstrous cavalry unit which, like pegasus knights, uses the mount's T4? What if we get more monsters, all of which have high T>4? You see, all those options are rather effective at combating against asur infantry

- super heavy armour - i don´t think, we will get some
- big pointdecrease - not my favorite, we should be an elite army

agree on those ones

- more movement options - when we get a boost in movement in which way ever it would cool, but every opponent will call "cheeese"

well, we are already quite ok with movement, as we have core Ld9 M9 fast cavalry. in addition, I do think that we will get a boost. i simply think that corsairs will definitely skirmish, and that would indeed mean a boost to our movement phase - core skirmishers which are ok in combat. and if they were also able to rank up like beastmen raiders, that would be superb!

- some changes in shooting - we are not WE, we should be aggressive (IMO)

correct. but who says ther should be very much shooting? if just the price of a crossbow were reduced to 3 for warriors and 4 for dark riders, thoat would be a good boost. if warriors could assume cityguard formation, that would also be a good boost. neither of these too boosts would make DE overly shooty - definitely not nearing the asrai in their shooting capability. however, it would definitely make DE a bit more competitive.

- eternal hatred (without anything in addition) - what use have my dead executioners with the option to reroll hits?

well, that's the problem - "without anything in addition". the point is, there should be additions, but they don't have to be army-wide rules. about execs - think how the situation would change if they became good can openers (for example, by getting to ignore armour instead of having KB); you would then use them to protect you flanks against heavy cavalry instead of charging them head on against infantry. and i guarantee you, no cavalry would ever show their flank to execs, because they would know, that these guys would be devastating. and for charging the front of infantry, just use something more survivable, like COK, chariots or monsters.

on the notion of spite:
you see, the problem is that it is only really looking good against asur. otherwise, it encourages a defensive style of playing, and, in addition, it doesn't help many of the druchii units. what good would spearmen get out of it? almost nothing. the ones who benefit would be the hard-hitters. and although I do agree that our hard hitters need to be improved, I would very much prefer each unit to be looked at and fixed. also, spite doesn't helpo against many armies. for example, it's useless against undead, bretonnia, skaven, empire, chaos and dwarfs. why would you ever want a rule like that?

Ikarus · Post by **Ikarus** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:48 pm

Well I could perfectly live with having spite only as a special rule when facing the asur.

Darathel · Post by **Darathel** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:48 pm

Lakissov said:

you are exaggeratign a bit

i know

T4: i would be surprised, but hey, when it comes, i take it baby.

well, we are already quite ok with movement, as we have core Ld9 M9 fast cavalry

i hope, that the DR still be core in the new book

Changes and boosts in the units are more welcome to me as AWR´s, but we are facing an AWR IMO. When Executioners will get ignoring armour, than i dance and drink some beers. All improvements are good, but i take the focus on only Asur now: ignoring armour is useless, when my nice guys are dead, they hit last, no hatred helps me here. The benefits are with the Asur. I don´t want a crazy rule, which breaks all records for gamewinning, but a battle should be balanced, and for this case spite would help. The most of us (and myself) accepted ASF (but i don´t like it), a powerful rule. When we accept this rule, we are able to accept a similar rule for us too, if it comes (and this discussion is theoretical again till reliable new rumours arrive us). GW has to balance the initiative order or the effects of it between Druchii and Asur.
I face the High Shelves on saturday again, i hope, i take the laugh out of my opponents face again - without a new rule

@Mandavar Bloodlust: there is nothing real overpowerd at your list - look at other armies nowadays and you know, what you could expect for yourself :twisted:

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:16 am

still, the example with executioners is not correct. if they get to ignore armour, they will just not be meant to be used against other infantry - they will be cavalry busters. even if they charge the front of a cavalry unit, they will very likely win (even if the opposing cavalry has ASF). charging the flank, they win even more likely. ergo, the opponent will be reluctant to open his cavalry units to charges from executioners. which leads to the conclusion that if you place your executioners at the flank of your infantry blocks, that will be enough to guarantee that the enemy cavalry will have big troubles getting into that very flank.

you see the point? elite infantry is meant to be specialized. if your elite infantry fares well against some types of troops and doesn't fare well against others, this is not a problem of the unit. of course, I do now that there are types of elite infantry which are good against all types of units (e.g. swordmasters), but do you really think that all our elites should be like that? I don't

Saithis · Post by **Saithis** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:09 am

Lakissov wrote:on the notion of spite:
you see, the problem is that it is only really looking good against asur. otherwise, it encourages a defensive style of playing, and, in addition, it doesn't help many of the druchii units.

i agree - but the topic was "is hate + spite enough to counter ASF?" - this game designer said DE will probably get hate and something diffrent against the asur. if they add spite it would be only against asur.
and to be honest - i would like to have the option to field some infantry against them. HE are the main enemies for DE - so it's only fair that DE can use more than 1/3 of their army. :roll:

of course the units need a boost - i am sure thats not the point.

Spite + Hatred vs ASF

Given the indiciations that we *are* getting Hatred as an AWR, would the addition of spite offset the caveats of hatred, and be a proper counter to ASF?

Given the indiciations that we are getting Hatred as an AWR, would the addition of spite offset the caveats of hatred, and be a proper counter to ASF?