Spite + Hatred vs ASF

[Darkblade83]

you know the problem with ASF is that striking first in warhammer is so massive that i dont know if GW can really come up with something comparable. obviously gun lines are GW's advice but DE dont have the ability to be a good gun line not to mention that it is so uncharacterful for the race. they are combat specialist and should continue to be. i was alway that HE were better at magic and we were better at assault and frankly they just cant be better at both. the only thing i could see happening would be if De had ASF as well and army wide hatred. the two ASF's would nullify against HE's otherwist i cant see hatred being enough becasue you will still take casualties before you get to use it even if you charge.

on another issue i wanted to bring up the fact that i feel that GW should make the executioners have 2 attacks sincethe swordmaster get two, its only fair. besides they just dont seem to close enough damage with 1 attack and striking last is a hefty price to pay for only getting 1 attack.

[Lakissov]

From a fluffy point of view, Dark Elves are not near as Elite as High Elves. The main bulk of the Dark Elf armies are made by foot sloggers from the army. Spearmen, RxB warriors and Corsairs a-plenty! There's also less empathy among Druchii than among Asuryans. We treat anyone of lower ranks as slaves and like to plot against those of equal or higher ranks. If I had my way, I'd include something that represented this. If the High Elves got 6 Special slots and 4 rare, the Dark Elf emphasize would be on cheap expendable soldiers that the lords and generals don't care much for. Dark Elves is also (as far as I know) a growing race compared to the Asur. Thus, having bigger armies of less training makes fluff sense to me.

And if the new list is a Khaine-themed as rumours have it, maybe we can see Executioners or Witch Elves become core with a Highborn is leading the army? Stuff like that can really put flavour to any Druchii army.

As for an army-wide rule, hatred is both fluffy and decently balanced. I'd love it from a fluff perspective, but it would be hard to learn how to operate the new army when you are forced for pursue fleeing enemies. Whenever you charge you must be watchful for the event of the enemy breaking. You might pursue into a bad position...

~ Nag

From a purely fluff standpoint:
1. The Dark Elf population isn't nearly as large as that of the high elves. The bulk of the Druchii's ancestors originated from Nagarythe, only one of the many states of Ulthuan.

2. Compunding that, Druchii society is fraught with murderous skullduggery. It culls the weak, the witless, and the unskilled. And let us not forget that Druchii are killed in alarming numbers in the temples of Khaine as sacrifices (not just slaves and captives). Therefore, the Druchii population simply cannot grow (or more aptly, decline less quickly) than their kin in Ulthuane.

By #2 alone, natural selection would simply make the average Dark Elf more skilled, cunning, and viscious than your average bear. If the High Elves are an army of elites because of their longevity, discipline, and martial prowess, Dark Elves should be equally so considering the forces of natural selection present in the society in which they must survive.

Going purely by the logic, I agree with MonkeyLord; however, it seems that the GW thinks in the same way as Nagathi. I've been reading the fluff in their book last week, and in every single battle that was described there, the dark elves were outnumbering the high elves. Every single battle. And in all those battles, the high elves were winning purely because they are better trained (and, once, because of a miracle, i.e. Teclis almost killing Malekith and then raining his magic upon the Druchii). So, it seems, we are set with being not the more skilled ones, but the more ruthless ones. And, most likely, a growing nation, not a dying one. I'd say, that means that we should be able to outnumber the Asur handily when our new book is out. Most likely, it should include cheap warriors and corsairs (like, warriors for 7 points with shield, and 9-point raiding corsairs).

[Mr. anderson]

i agree with Lakissov on that one. but what i think is that our core units will be given the "task" to make cheap numbers available but our elites will be the really interesting units, and i hope that they will not owe HE anything, regarding deadliness.
and i guess that dark elves will be the only elven race with a growing population, simply because short of the few chaos marauder and beastmen attacks they are not harassed so that they can live without natural enemies (except for themselves) - the high elves always have to suffer from our raids and chaos fleets and they frequently came to aid the empire in the SoCs. the woodies cannot grow because they have to fight a constant battle against beastmen and orcs and sometimes revengeful brettonians.

HUZZAH!

[Lordsaradain]

Monkeylord, What is spite?

[Zakath the slaughterer]

Spite is a Made By D.net AWR (army wide rule) that lets Druchii models killed in CC to strike back at their opponents. It apparently has a lot fans in here and sadly, some even seem to take it for certain for the next book Nice rule, agreed, but nothing nearly official or even a rumour.

Agreed with Lakissov here, it has always been GWs opinion that Dark Elves are ruthless et evil CC specialists and Asur are the few numbered elites.. Against all logic, yes, but who cares as long as we are the cooler ones?

[Scareypete]

No matter what they do to us it has to

A) prevent Power Creep

B) Place us back on even footing with the only army to display serious powercreep... The HE.

I have said dozens of Times that Hatred is a silly rule since we rarely miss in CC. Against HE we have a 50/50 shot in CC but since they struck first that means 1/4 of our atacking models are slain on contact. So hating them is natural... but not an effective counter.

This Spite rule although likely not to be given to us is a damn good counter to the HE that will make our opponents think first about charging us.... but It wont really change how we play other armies. Like I said beofre Imagine How fast a HE/DE match would be if we did get Spite... Full Ranks would be killed in every turn of CC on both sides! It would be beautifull.

Its not as big of an advantage as ASF becuase even though we get a full attack back we still took their full attack as well... where ASF only makes you suffer the survivors attack. This supports the idea that they are more skilled than us... but we are more Brutal, Blood Thirsty and so cruel we will stab out your eyes with our dying breath. Let them Keep the hatred though... We don't need hatred against the clumsy fools since we wont have as many dice to reroll anyhow.