Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:58 pm



Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
the use of Dark Riders against Wood Elfs 
Author Message
Trainee Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 7:26 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Dordrecht, Holland
I'd like to know your opinion on the use of DR's against a typical WE army. My main opponent useally fields 2 units of archers and the few times i used my DR's they just got shoot down in the first 2 turns. Any thoughts?


Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:57 pm
Profile
Manipulator of the Masses
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:38 am
Posts: 3074
Location: A cheery little corner
Post 
To win games against armies that can and usually are such high mobilitly, you have to be able to dictate some movement and control aspects. You have to be able to discourage movement into areas of the battlefield, and project enough threat to control others. DR are very good at this against WE, since the threat level against lightly armored T3 targets (or about 70% of the WE list) is high, and they have the mobility to control where you require. While they are fragile against WE shooting, use of terrain and careful thought into movement can limit this, as can counterfire and projection of higher threats. If they have something they feel will is more of a threat immediately, DR suddenly lose target priority status.

_________________
We stand now on the precipice of something monumental and perhaps even capable of boggling the mind in its myriad potentials and possibilities. Try not to drool too much…


Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:38 pm
Profile
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:52 pm
Posts: 380
Location: portsmouth NH
Post 
First thought is you are not Using Cover or terrain to your advantage.

Second thought is on Turn 2 your should have charge range on something.

I brought my 6 man unit of Dark riders with FC against a Dwarf Gunline and Survived. Sure the dwarves can't hit you on turn one like archers can... but S4 Armor piercing on round 2 more than makes up for it by Negating the DR pitifull save... and wounding on a 3+. I got innto Rxb range and let loose on turn one... killed 2 Hand gunners... Beginning turn 2 Lost 2 Dark Riders and Killed 2 Handgunners again now in close range. Turn 3 Lost 2 Dark Riders and Charged Just beacus Im that suicidal... and they couldnt stand and shoot anyways... Killed 2 Handgunners. Saved the one wound.. I had my banner still... He didnt... so I won combat by 1... the dwarves managed to fail their LD check by 1... and I ran them down, came back the next turn and fired at the next unit of Handgunners... Killed 1. Turn 5 My Dark riders were killed.

I lost the Battle because Dwarf Warriors OWN our spearmen. Save 3 Core troops with the dwarf stat line and leadership is sick. But the MVP's of the battle were my Sorceress on cold one and my Dark Riders who eliminated the Cannon and both Units of Gunners between them. My RXB's and CoK did a little damage before being broken.

When you choose terrain wait for him to pick and place the obligatory Hill... then Halfway between that hill and your Flank put some soft cover or a Building. Deploy your riders towards the end after you know where those archers are going (Prolly on the hill but i never Played WE before so maybe not) thne deploy so you can hide behind the building or in the soft cover on your first turn. Turn 2 Bust out (lose a couple riders) and eithe rshoot his flanks or Charge them. Depends on the US of your riders and his unit of archers... and if you are within stand and shoot range or have the flank as an option) Usually a block of 10 archers can be taken out by a flank charge with 4-5 Dark riders... Keep your Banner though... you need it for resolution if you use this tactic.... 5 Riders survie to charge is US 10, his archers US 10... He has High Ground... (prolly not a command) and you have a banner... so its all even except how many men you can take out.

Their archers are scary from what I heard... give them something to shoot at... field a Hydra and send it right for them... then get some shades and Harpies and put a hero on a DP... that combined with your Dark riders gets you enough people in charge range to outnumber/flank/cause terror and otherwise completely take out 2-3 units of archers.


Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:39 pm
Profile WWW
Beastmaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:44 am
Posts: 321
Location: Where the sun don't shine
Post 
Keep using them while they are still a core choice (I'm guessing that will change with the new book). Dark Riders are one of our best units.

What if you take a cheap unit of harpies that you could use to screen the DR's? On your first move you can get within charge range with both harpies and DR. If he shoots all the harpies, at least your DR are still alive (and hopefully less than 9" away from the archers). Make sure that he doesn't get to stand and shoot. Next turn charge the archers, problem solved. If the harpies survive, charge the archers, even if just to tie them up for awhile. You don't have to win the fight, just keep them from shooting.

Second, Dark Magic. Against T3 woodies, the Chill Wind spell is a big friend. If you cause even one unsaved wound, he doesn't get to shoot next turn. Dominion can also be useful for this.

Also, consider that if he's taking time to shoot up your DR's, then your other units are NOT getting shot up. Deploy strong units that will make him pay for wasting shots on the DR's.

My biggest problem with facing WE is that so many of his units are skirmishers. I have to really be careful about maneuvering my DR's so that they don't get charged unless I want them to be charged.

Good luck. I hope this helps.

_________________
Did I tell you that I hate high elves?


Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:42 pm
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:45 am
Posts: 202
Location: Feeding my cold one with baby dwarves..
Post 
When considering units vs WE I always take warhydra... Makes its points back almost every game since it is indeed god vs wodie toughnes... However DO NOT charge in melee with treemen or his treekin because it can't stand the punishment these monsters do...
Treekins are option only with multiple charge...

Allout magic always helps and dragon has it's uses also... :twisted:
Even warriors with crossbows r great! I fielded 3 units of 10 last time and they really can control some of WE movement.

Chariots are excelent...Those impact hits hurt no matter whom they hit...

The biggest threat comes from the allout WE favourite TREEMEN! Overpovering as it is and with its whooping shooting it is a real manace since it can singlehandedly break most of our units... Vs him I would suggest multiple charges...chariots and stuff that hurt... prolly highborn to finish the job...
...and I found that assasins are not that good choice against WE ....so better skip it...

Well those are few pointers hope they help...

NOW GO AND BRING US SOME WOODIE SLAVES!
:twisted:

_________________
(\__/)
(O.o )
(> < ) This is the Assassin Bunny.
He has been specially trained by "the Old man of the Mountain".
He looks cute and than bites off your aorta when you least expect it.. ;)


Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:53 pm
Profile
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 9:43 pm
Posts: 78
Post 
Dark Riders are always good.

Ive found that they always tend to get shot at anyway when you are causing trouble. Usually you can keep them alive for the whole game.

Even if you cant, theyre relatively cheap, and if you can sacrafice them to gain an advantage, its nearly always worth it.

_________________
Kaetor d'Somnios

Trainee of Khaine

WS: 5
S: 2
T:1
D:5
I:5

Equipment: Short Sword, Dagger

Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Uncontrollable Frenzy


Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:49 am
Profile
The Exiled One
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Posts: 8067
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Post 
One should never go to battle without Dark Riders, but you should not expect them to survive a battle against the Wood Elves. Drakken's comments about dictating movement is good, but remember that when the DR position themselves for zone control, the Glade Riders of the Asrai will move into that zone and shoot 2-3 of those Dark Riders to death. A panic check is to follow, and a S&S reaction if you try to charge next turn. This is the beauty of Asrai Glade Riders. They never really fear enemy fast cavalry. They move into these "dangerous" zones, kill a couple enemies and prepares to flee or S&S if the enemy feels like charging anyway.

The DR RxBs can help the situation, but usually hits too poorly to scare any Wood Elf player off.

~ Nag

_________________
Image


Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:01 am
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:42 am
Posts: 2661
Location: Group 22 RP thread
Post 
Nagathi wrote:
The DR RxBs can help the situation, but usually hits too poorly to scare any Wood Elf player off.

~ Nag

Hm. In my experience rxbDR outclass Glade Riders; this zone control you speak of is an essential element of both the Druchii and Asrai ways of war. Were the DR to get the jump on the Glade Riders, they usually (in my experience) cause a near wipe on the GR unit. Rxbs are marred by Skirmishers, but Glade Riders are fair game IMO.

_________________
Vryala Naïlo - WS5 / S5 / T5 / D5 / I4

Equipment: bastard sword of Speed, shield of Defence, repeater (20/20), spear, mace, dagger, Armour of Night, SDC, whip, blowpipe (9/12)
Inventory: amulet of Strength, grapple, grenade x0, smoke x11, map, mage hand, sleep oil x8, cure balms x20, Yori's balms x1, winter gear, old kit, lion mask
Mount: Dark Steed (Blanky), barding, talisman of Protection
Gold: 1735
Skills: Defensive Fighting, Anarin Sarath (2), Basic Ride
Class: Warrior


Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:00 am
Profile
The Exiled One
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Posts: 8067
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Post 
The extra range on the longbows, the no penalty for moving while shooting and the ability to move unhindered through wooded terrain often give the Glade Riders the advantage in a zone control war :)

If DR are to barge into an area covered by GR, they would hit those GR on 6+ if long range. In the reversed situation, GR would hit on 4+, meaning 50% more hits (I've taken the extra number of bolts into the equation). Considering the ranges are to the GR's advatnage, as well as any wooded terrain, I'd say Glade Riders do these types of jobs better.

However, and that's a big 'however', Dark Riders' RxBs are very powerful if given the opportunity. The Elves of Asrai are very scared of str3 attacks, especially those we cannot avoid (we can avoid combat, and dispel magic... shooting is harder). Use Dark Riders in a game, but perhaps a block of 10 RxB Warriors can do this zone control better.

~ Nag

_________________
Image


Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:01 pm
Profile WWW
Manipulator of the Masses
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:38 am
Posts: 3074
Location: A cheery little corner
Post 
Actually, assuming the DR can fire first and get to short range (Mv 9 vs Mv 9 makes this an if), they'll win the shooting war most of the time. The biggest catch though....is why would you ever agree to fight 1 vs 1 DR vs. GR. These are Elves we're talking about, 2:1 or 3:1 odds at all times....never fight fair.

_________________
We stand now on the precipice of something monumental and perhaps even capable of boggling the mind in its myriad potentials and possibilities. Try not to drool too much…


Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:11 pm
Profile
The Exiled One
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Posts: 8067
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Post 
:D Very true. Fighting fair is for High Elves.

Determining who will contest a zone of control depends on a lot of factors, especially the entire battle match-up. If the Dark Elves have the shooting and magic advantage, the Wood Elf player will most certainly advance while the Druchii player can hold back a bit. This is the most common situation I have seen. RBTs, RxB warriors and a more offensive magic, coupled with the aggressive style of the 6th edition Wood Elves all make battle gravitate towards this scene.

If this is the case, it is more likely that the Glade Riders would be the one shooting first. The fact that they can move freely through 18" of terrain and then shoot a further 30" with no movement penalties adds to my point.
All in all, there's a lot of factors playing a part, and a lot of units on the board, not to forget our good friend Lady Luck. For defensive zone control, I'd advice 10 RxB wariors over the Dark Riders. And don't think the Wood Elf player will fall for your baiting. He will only respond with archery.

~ Nag

_________________
Image


Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:17 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:42 am
Posts: 2661
Location: Group 22 RP thread
Post 
Nags, how would you call ASF 'fair'? :lol:

As for your sig... if I don't like our upcoming AB, I just might :P

_________________
Vryala Naïlo - WS5 / S5 / T5 / D5 / I4

Equipment: bastard sword of Speed, shield of Defence, repeater (20/20), spear, mace, dagger, Armour of Night, SDC, whip, blowpipe (9/12)
Inventory: amulet of Strength, grapple, grenade x0, smoke x11, map, mage hand, sleep oil x8, cure balms x20, Yori's balms x1, winter gear, old kit, lion mask
Mount: Dark Steed (Blanky), barding, talisman of Protection
Gold: 1735
Skills: Defensive Fighting, Anarin Sarath (2), Basic Ride
Class: Warrior


Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:40 pm
Profile
The Exiled One
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Posts: 8067
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Post 
Unless you're a die-hard Slaneeshi fan like myself, you'll like the new armybook. I will do a lot of converting and "counts as" to make my cult army complete with the new book.

And ASF is fair from a balance PoV, but very unreal :) And very unreasoned. "High Elves train many decades to fight in regiments and formations" so now RBT crew strike before my charging Wardancer lord... :roll:
But that's for another thread methinks.

~ Nag

_________________
Image


Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:55 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:19 am
Posts: 2089
Post 
I remember reading on the wood elves forums once that they hate pretty much all our core units. Dark Riders are great for beating down ranks of archers but will die a quick death to anything else. Corsairs rank up and are somewhat arrow-resistant. Repeater Crossbows make short work of wood elves and their 4+ save on any core troop rocks. And lastly good, ole spearmen give cheap static combat resolution.


Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:07 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:42 am
Posts: 2661
Location: Group 22 RP thread
Post 
Well Nags I'm a die-hard Temple groupie myself, I'm hard to please I guess :)

But I guess it comes down to whether DR will remain Core for us. I've really grown into my current playstyle, and I'd hate to make a drastic overhaul.

_________________
Vryala Naïlo - WS5 / S5 / T5 / D5 / I4

Equipment: bastard sword of Speed, shield of Defence, repeater (20/20), spear, mace, dagger, Armour of Night, SDC, whip, blowpipe (9/12)
Inventory: amulet of Strength, grapple, grenade x0, smoke x11, map, mage hand, sleep oil x8, cure balms x20, Yori's balms x1, winter gear, old kit, lion mask
Mount: Dark Steed (Blanky), barding, talisman of Protection
Gold: 1735
Skills: Defensive Fighting, Anarin Sarath (2), Basic Ride
Class: Warrior


Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:00 am
Profile
The Exiled One
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Posts: 8067
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Post 
Only time will tell. My speculations are that Dark Riders will stay core. Wood Elves (a fairly recent armybook by GW standards) still have core fast cav. High Elves got theirs moved to special due to Silver Helms being too cheap and too boring for opponents. An army of High Elves should include Citizen Levy, an the new armylist forces that. To compensate the move to special for Helms, the Asur got 6 specials at 2k points.

I feel Dr will stay core as they are neither all too powerful, and Asrai still have theirs. Only time will tell though.

~ Nag

_________________
Image


Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:27 pm
Profile WWW
Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:52 pm
Posts: 380
Location: portsmouth NH
Post 
You know I should wait to shoot my mouth off until I get home to check...

But are Goblin Wolf Riders still Core?

I hope that We still have the cavalry list option. I cannot financially afford one... but I would love to field 2-3 Units of DR and a bunch of CoK and a unit of Harpies with a Hydra and Characters all mounted on nasty beasts.

Back on topic... Adding Shields to RXB warriors will confound the Wood elf player... Save 5 means that he might not get his panic checks and you will be in rnage next round to open up on him. I agree with Nag that RXB are better for zone control vs glade riders... and WE play style is foreign to me so I can't imagine what they would do with those fast cav apart form hanging 15" away from me and shooting.


Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:42 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Personal Guard
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:13 am
Posts: 898
Location: Cold north of Sweden
Post 
This might be a lil theadomancy, but a thing just occured to me. Why try to outshoot them, when they're so good at it, why not just get the charge and let em taste our spears? I think that would get some of them at least.

_________________
Nagathi wrote:
Fighting fair is for High Elves.
~ Nag


Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:12 pm
Profile
Manipulator of the Masses
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:38 am
Posts: 3074
Location: A cheery little corner
Post 
Because there are very few reasons why Glade Riders would ever actually take a charge? If you can put them into a spot where they have to hold maybe, but the odds are very good they'll just flee, and prepare to dance later....

_________________
We stand now on the precipice of something monumental and perhaps even capable of boggling the mind in its myriad potentials and possibilities. Try not to drool too much…


Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:40 am
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 12:34 am
Posts: 216
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Post 
Raneth wrote:
Well Nags I'm a die-hard Temple groupie myself, I'm hard to please I guess :)

But I guess it comes down to whether DR will remain Core for us. I've really grown into my current playstyle, and I'd hate to make a drastic overhaul.


I hear that. I love my Dark Riders. Not that I don't buy other core units, but if I had to use special spots for the Riders, then I'd have to lose out on a lot of my heavy hitting units or sacrifice battlefield control. However, I think Dark Riders will stay core, because they fit into the raiding theme of our army.

Back to the thread, against a slightly weakened unit of fast cavalry, I see the Glade Riders taking a stand and shoot reaction. If I had the option to Stand and Shoot a unit of 3-4 fast cavalry, I would certainly consider it. Kill one of them and you force a panic test, as well as having to fight fewer of them.

_________________
-ObsidianIchor

Armies:
Druchii: 4000+
DIY Marines: 4000+
Tyranids: 6000+


Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:36 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 20 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software