Funny, I always thought that elite units should be exactly that: support units! An elite regiment of an army would not be numerous enough to form an actual battleline on its own. They would be a support unit doing the damage! A bit like COCs atm?Rob the Dark Elf wrote:But I dont think that elite infantry should be used in a supporting role, it should be the unit doing the damage
Executioner Rumour
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- Zakath the slaughterer
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@Arnold, yeah I remember your thread about the rule change. I think they were cool ideas and I recall replying to the topic and all.. But maybe we can agree to disagree on the role we want to see Execs performing? Still, in the fluff they are descriped extremely hitty and violent. Glass cannons.
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Actually Zakath, we don't have to disagree - what you say about elite units being support units - it makes a lot of sense. I never thought of them that way. Executioners would be like our SAS troopers... Actually, with the ruleset I have described, they could be used that way. With your suggestion of a 5+ unit size, they could become quite dangerous. Just think, for about 60pts (and a special choice) you could insert a little ball of unstoppable hatred into your army... Even three execs like that could be very nasty, especially in the flanks.
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I like them even more nowArnold Layne wrote:Executioners would be like our SAS troopers...
Love it how you put it "insert a little ball of unstoppable hatred into your army" That's just how I have always pictured them; small elite formation trashing hordes of terrified enemies while spear elves pin the enemy units. 60pts Execs units are IMO something too good to pass, suddenly they become as viable as COCs - in some situations, even better.
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Twisting your mind and smashing your dreams/
Blinded by me, you cant see a thing/
Just call my name, `cause Ill hear you scream
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Blinded by me, you cant see a thing/
Just call my name, `cause Ill hear you scream
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Void wrote:i would be soo happy if they gave new exec's that rule, would not only be good for fluff but would be completely deadly against dragons and other toughness 6+ units.
V.
We already have Witch Elves to deal with high toughness units.
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Autowound is hardly that much better then KB. S5 is usually wounding 2-3 anyway, but the KB when it occured allowed us to cut down though high armour units that we took exes for in the first place. Just give exes 2 attacks or something. Without the ASF of swordmasters, they would still be pretty cheap but it would double the chances of KB and even if it fails you have more chances of killing them anyway.
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Harabec wrote:Autowound is hardly that much better then KB. S5 is usually wounding 2-3 anyway, but the KB when it occured allowed us to cut down though high armour units that we took exes for in the first place. Just give exes 2 attacks or something. Without the ASF of swordmasters, they would still be pretty cheap but it would double the chances of KB and even if it fails you have more chances of killing them anyway.
except that kb only works on a 6 and a 5 wide unit only nets about 3 wounds so you're probably only getting a kb once every 2 turns even if youdon't get any of the front rank killed before they strike.
Doesn't mean I'm any more impressed with the rumoured rule either. Frankly, neither rule will let them do enough wounds to win combats unsupported so they, like all other DE units should really get points dropped as a first priority.
Damnation wrote:We already have Witch Elves to deal with high toughness units.
Unless the high toughness unit has armour of 4+ or better... and relying on 6's to win is not really a sound strategy. More like gambling.
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If they have ASF there price will go Waaaay up.
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I like the idea of Swordmasters fencing off with Executioners in a battle.
As truly the Executioner is the Swordmaster's opposite number, or should be,
If GW dont see it that way then more fool them imho.
As truly the Executioner is the Swordmaster's opposite number, or should be,
If GW dont see it that way then more fool them imho.
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Handmaiden wrote:As truly the Executioner is the Swordmaster's opposite number, or should be,
If GW dont see it that way then more fool them imho.
QFT. It would be good to see Executioners on a par with the new Asur, they deserve it to be honest.
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Executioners with ASF? That would just be wrong really. The one unit in the dark elf list which should never, under any circumstance, get ASF is executioners. They wield quite large swords you know. But then again, WL should never have gotten ASF either for the same reason.
And besides, why would you want them to have ASF anyway?
And swordmasters don't really compare to executioners that well, the swordmasters are the HE best warriors, mowing down enemies left and right etc. etc. In our army that is the witches' job
And besides, why would you want them to have ASF anyway?
And swordmasters don't really compare to executioners that well, the swordmasters are the HE best warriors, mowing down enemies left and right etc. etc. In our army that is the witches' job
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Executioners will indeed be on par compared to Swordies. However, they would probably not fare very well against each other, but they would do great against the same type of foes. Swordies vs Execs is not what this is about. It's about how good Swordies are against a certain type of enemies, and how well the new Execs are to that same type of enemies.
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And besides, why would you want them to have ASF anyway?
So they can be scary Elite Infantry.
In our army that is the witches' job
XD Witches are a joke to High Elves atm anyway. And ou'd be surprised at how ineffective they are without the CoB in general.
OK Time to Rant.
and as for Executioners vs Swordmasters, err they fight each other in the background all the time. I know they likely wont give Executioners ASF , but as it stands now, Swordmasters absolutely murder them, absolutely positively SLAUGHTER them. Everytime, rain or shine, Charge or no Charge.
They need some rule to make Execs vs Swordmasters less one sided, I dont care how well people think they should or shouldnt match up, thats just one sided boring pointless broken crap.
BRING THE COMBAT BACK TO HE VS DE !!! Dark Elves are meant to be the really martial ones for crying out loud, the Nagarythe Elves. Thats what I signed up for when I started collecting them. Not to be outclassed by some High Elf in martial training, i PASSED UP High Elves for Dark Elves because I thought Druchii were the deadlier in combat. They certainly were in the 6th edition post revision. But yeah, now High Elves have strong rules and poor models, and Dark Elves have weak rules and great models. yuck. If HE had great models them i would probablybe kicking myself about now.
And no , Executioners cant be as effective as Swordmasters in battle, ever , this is because that no matter wjat rule Gw pulls out, Executioners are likely to still be Toughness 3 Elves with -1 movement who strike last - always against HE to boot.
Cos of that Execs will always be far more situational that swordmasters, seeing how that is the case , they need some seriously badass special rules to justify taking them. and/ an and increase to their stat line, cos swordmasters got 2 attacks each. Boy I hate that broken unit.
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Handmaiden wrote:And besides, why would you want them to have ASF anyway?
So they can be scary Elite Infantry.
...other ways for that, I'm sure.
Handmaiden wrote:In our army that is the witches' job
XD Witches are a joke to High Elves atm anyway. And ou'd be surprised at how ineffective they are without the CoB in general.
I don't want to start this discussion over again, suffice to say I disagree. Though I would also say, the CoB is an absolute necessity.
Handmaiden wrote:OK Time to Rant.
and as for Executioners vs Swordmasters, err they fight each other in the background all the time. I know they likely wont give Executioners ASF , but as it stands now, Swordmasters absolutely murder them, absolutely positively SLAUGHTER them. Everytime, rain or shine, Charge or no Charge.
Ever notice how the High Elves keep on defeating Dark Elves in fluff?
But seriously, I don't expect any Dark Elf unit to (reliably) stand up to SMs in cc. EVER. No matter what our new rules may bring. which is okay, since SMs at range are just T3 Elves, and my rxbs love that.
Handmaiden wrote:They need some rule to make Execs vs Swordmasters less one sided, I dont care how well people think they should or shouldnt match up, thats just one sided boring pointless broken crap.
BRING THE COMBAT BACK TO HE VS DE !!! Dark Elves are meant to be the really martial ones for crying out loud, the Nagarythe Elves. Thats what I signed up for when I started collecting them. Not to be outclassed by some High Elf in martial training, i PASSED UP High Elves for Dark Elves because I thought Druchii were the deadlier in combat.
The comparison of Exes and SMs should favour the SMs. Fluffwise Exes are little above City Guard, just happens to be Har Ganeth, no matter what Elite mark one may have put upon them due to their awesome-looking armour. SMs have been training all their lives in nigh ascetic conditions, I doubt the lifestyle and training regime of Exes even remotely approaches such dedication.
Some awesome models in the HE archives, such as the metal Silver Helms (5th Ed.?). I also don't think our current rules (buffed by SoC, admittedly) are weak.Handmaiden wrote:They certainly were in the 6th edition post revision. But yeah, now High Elves have strong rules and poor models, and Dark Elves have weak rules and great models. yuck. If HE had great models them i would probablybe kicking myself about now.
Handmaiden wrote:And no , Executioners cant be as effective as Swordmasters in battle, ever , this is because that no matter wjat rule Gw pulls out, Executioners are likely to still be Toughness 3 Elves with -1 movement who strike last - always against HE to boot.
I agree they will never match up. But heavy armour doesn't slow people down anymore.
Handmaiden wrote:Cos of that Execs will always be far more situational that swordmasters, seeing how that is the case , they need some seriously badass special rules to justify taking them. and/ an and increase to their stat line, cos swordmasters got 2 attacks each. Boy I hate that broken unit.
Powerful, but broken? I thought we of all people would understand the risks involved in fielding expensive T3/5+ASv infantry.
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The comparison of Exes and SMs should favour the SMs.
Since when does "favour" = No Chance.
What I'm saying is that it should never be outright Tactical Insanity to charge Swordmasters on the front with Execs. That just spits and vomits on the fluff so badly.
The comparison of Exes and SMs should favour the SMs. Fluffwise Exes are little above City Guard, just happens to be Har Ganeth, no matter what Elite mark one may have put upon them due to their awesome-looking armour. SMs have been training all their lives in nigh ascetic conditions, I doubt the lifestyle and training regime of Exes even remotely approaches such dedication.
So what does, Black Guard? Assassins? Witch Elves? Any Dark Elf? its not like theyre not in the same boat as execs anyway is it....
Some awesome models in the HE archives, such as the metal Silver Helms (5th Ed.?).
You mean the ones where the captain has big ugly , downright bizarre eagle like feather wings sticking out of his helm?
.I also don't think our current rules (buffed by SoC, admittedly) are weak
I didnt mean generaly weak, I meant weak in close combat against quite a few 7th Ed armies now.
Powerful, but broken? I thought we of all people would understand the risks involved in fielding expensive T3/5+ASv infantry.
Yet Dark Elves have to do it all the time with abilities that are no where near the Swordmasters of Hax in close combat. High Elven ASF is certainly broken imo, against Dark ELves solely. Yep Soley, Its broken in how it forces Dark Elven armies to completely change strategies and ignore combat mostly, If you want to win. Not broken in that is overpowerful in general, however I will say that in 6th Edition, High Elves and Dark Elves (post Revision) were even in Close Combat pretty much , the difference wasnt very noticable, but now I fear that 7th edition will seriously mess up the works there.
And Ps - doesnt high magic have spells to protect troops like SMasters ?
Ever notice how the High Elves keep on defeating Dark Elves in fluff
Well that used to be for only two reasons
1- Tyrion.
2- Teclis.
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Dammit. I promised myself I'd let this drop.
It's Tactical Insanity with any unit as long as you still have ranged options available to you. I think that adheres pretty close to fluff. If you could point me to a GW-published story that describes Executioners (or any other DE unit, w/e) as being on an even footing with Sword Masters, I might reconsider. I just doubt such an account exists at all.
Assassins will be able to kill off quite a few when they hop out. CoB taken into account, of course. (How much experience do you have with it anyway?)
That doesn't really narrow it down. I remember the regular Helms having headbands on. The models are quite dynamic and detailed, fine even, not like the plastic monstrosities SH are now known as.
Due to ASF every other army's disadvantaged somewhat against Asur, as they will be against our Hatred. As for other 7th Ed. armies, you'd have to provide some actual examples/arguments if I'd were to give a meaningful response.
ASF is pretty powerful especially against DE because we don't have the phat to take many hits. But the arrival of 7th Ed. Asur hasn't fundamentally changed my strategies or anything. I deal with SMs like with any other uber kill cc unit of death; string them along using DR and take them out once the opportunity presents itself. I don't usually have to engage in cc if I don't want to. That's how wonderfully adaptable the Druchii are.
On another note, post-revision the Druchii have had a real advantage against the Asur. If you thought our units are overpriced, just take a look at the 6th Ed. HE Army Book. They were loooong overdue.
As we have Dark Magic to blast them apart with. I fail to see your point.
Yeah, famous Heroes get to do glorious things like slaughter the enemy wholesale. Malekith has his bits of victorious brutality fluff as well.
But when it comes to overall leadership, I feel there's no doubt the Asur have the upper hand. It's not so much 'Tyrion and Teclis' as much as the fact the Druchii lack such leaders, IMO.
What I'm saying is that it should never be outright Tactical Insanity to charge Swordmasters on the front with Execs. That just spits and vomits on the fluff so badly.
It's Tactical Insanity with any unit as long as you still have ranged options available to you. I think that adheres pretty close to fluff. If you could point me to a GW-published story that describes Executioners (or any other DE unit, w/e) as being on an even footing with Sword Masters, I might reconsider. I just doubt such an account exists at all.
So what does, Black Guard? Assassins? Witch Elves? Any Dark Elf? its not like theyre not in the same boat as execs anyway is it....
Assassins will be able to kill off quite a few when they hop out. CoB taken into account, of course. (How much experience do you have with it anyway?)
You mean the ones where the captain has big ugly , downright bizarre eagle like feather wings sticking out of his helm?
That doesn't really narrow it down. I remember the regular Helms having headbands on. The models are quite dynamic and detailed, fine even, not like the plastic monstrosities SH are now known as.
I didnt mean generaly weak, I meant weak in close combat against quite a few 7th Ed armies now.
Due to ASF every other army's disadvantaged somewhat against Asur, as they will be against our Hatred. As for other 7th Ed. armies, you'd have to provide some actual examples/arguments if I'd were to give a meaningful response.
Yet Dark Elves have to do it all the time with abilities that are no where near the Swordmasters of Hax in close combat. High Elven ASF is certainly broken imo, against Dark ELves solely. Yep Soley, Its broken in how it forces Dark Elven armies to completely change strategies and ignore combat mostly, If you want to win. Not broken in that is overpowerful in general, however I will say that in 6th Edition, High Elves and Dark Elves (post Revision) were even in Close Combat pretty much , the difference wasnt very noticable, but now I fear that 7th edition will seriously mess up the works there.
ASF is pretty powerful especially against DE because we don't have the phat to take many hits. But the arrival of 7th Ed. Asur hasn't fundamentally changed my strategies or anything. I deal with SMs like with any other uber kill cc unit of death; string them along using DR and take them out once the opportunity presents itself. I don't usually have to engage in cc if I don't want to. That's how wonderfully adaptable the Druchii are.
On another note, post-revision the Druchii have had a real advantage against the Asur. If you thought our units are overpriced, just take a look at the 6th Ed. HE Army Book. They were loooong overdue.
And Ps - doesnt high magic have spells to protect troops like SMasters ?
As we have Dark Magic to blast them apart with. I fail to see your point.
Basically, all of our Lord Special Characters beat the crap out of Druchii? In fluff.
Yeah, famous Heroes get to do glorious things like slaughter the enemy wholesale. Malekith has his bits of victorious brutality fluff as well.
But when it comes to overall leadership, I feel there's no doubt the Asur have the upper hand. It's not so much 'Tyrion and Teclis' as much as the fact the Druchii lack such leaders, IMO.
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So we are back to the same old argument of how to deal with Swordmasters. Yes, shooting against them works. BUT if the HE player is lucky, their survivability is very high. Some of u guys might have read it elsewhere, darkspear, who's in my gaming grp, fought against the new HE a couple of months ago. And 6 swordmasters, worth 90 pts, held up an entire flank juz because the HE player was insanely lucky with his armour save. darkspear didn't want to charge his units in to get slaughtered.
Isn't there something wrong if a 90 pt unit can hold up an entire flank juz because the HE player is lucky?
Yes, some of u might be thinking that we should use our RBTs to shoot their swordmasters. But HE mages can cast a 5+ ward save on them. Basically, it would seem to me that the supposedly weaknesses of HE can be covered up pretty easily by the players.
Vulnerable to shooting? Cast 5+ ward. Vulnerable to magic missiles and spells? HE get a +1 to dispel. And HE can field fast units like the tiranoc chariots to cover their flanks.
So how do we make swordmasters on par with execs? To me, nothing short of ASF would make them on par. Fluffwise, I dun see why Hoeth should be more martial than Khaine. Khaine is the elf god of war for goodness sake and Hoeth is the elf god of knowledge. Why shouldn't the temple troops get ASF?
Although giving execs ASF would make them too similar to swordmasters, but I dun see how GW is going to make execs more martial than swordmasters if they dun give execs ASF.
Unless there is a change in fluff...of coz.
Isn't there something wrong if a 90 pt unit can hold up an entire flank juz because the HE player is lucky?
Yes, some of u might be thinking that we should use our RBTs to shoot their swordmasters. But HE mages can cast a 5+ ward save on them. Basically, it would seem to me that the supposedly weaknesses of HE can be covered up pretty easily by the players.
Vulnerable to shooting? Cast 5+ ward. Vulnerable to magic missiles and spells? HE get a +1 to dispel. And HE can field fast units like the tiranoc chariots to cover their flanks.
So how do we make swordmasters on par with execs? To me, nothing short of ASF would make them on par. Fluffwise, I dun see why Hoeth should be more martial than Khaine. Khaine is the elf god of war for goodness sake and Hoeth is the elf god of knowledge. Why shouldn't the temple troops get ASF?
Although giving execs ASF would make them too similar to swordmasters, but I dun see how GW is going to make execs more martial than swordmasters if they dun give execs ASF.
Unless there is a change in fluff...of coz.
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Isn't there something wrong if a 90 pt unit can hold up an entire flank juz because the HE player is lucky?
By all rights they should have died to the missle fire. If he gor really lucky and made his armour saves, then that is not a balance issue. Luck will sometimes favour a particulaty opponent, its the way of dice.
Yes swordmasters can kill next to anything and I don't like that they are so uber either but you can kill them. Missles, magic, breath weapons, chariots. You could hit them in the flank with a monster or something that his 2 attacks couldn't possibly kill, or the flank with a static CR unit. If he gets so lucky that everything seems to bounce off them, then ignore them and go around them.
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Harabec wrote:
By all rights they should have died to the missle fire. If he gor really lucky and made his armour saves, then that is not a balance issue. Luck will sometimes favour a particulaty opponent, its the way of dice.
Yes swordmasters can kill next to anything and I don't like that they are so uber either but you can kill them. Missles, magic, breath weapons, chariots. You could hit them in the flank with a monster or something that his 2 attacks couldn't possibly kill, or the flank with a static CR unit. If he gets so lucky that everything seems to bounce off them, then ignore them and go around them.
Yes, you can avoid them and yes luck plays a part in the game. But I am talking abt the principle of the matter. Obviously if there is only one supposedly solution and that solution doesn't work, the list is not balanced.