Dark Riders and close combat

[Phierlihy]

A typical tactic for me are two units of Dark Riders in a 2000 point game. Usually they run around and shoot things but occasionally out of desperation they end up in combat charging something. It occurred to me that my opponents would really not expect them to charge in with a Standard of Slaughter and actually break a unit. I'm wondering if others have tried it and if it's worth the points. Thoughts?

[Slanderbot]

Interesting twist to the normal uses of dark riders. (notable flee tactics)

This seems like it would catch even some of the most experienced players off guard, a very deadly element that is not seen as often as it should.

I think it is worth a shot and it should go according to planned if you set up the charge well enough; perhaps by weakening it first or something alone those lines.

[Azure]

The problem is even with the standard of slaughter you will struggle to win!

BUT a noble BSB with the hydra banner on a DS is just soooo fun. Watching that many attacks go into the flank of a unit of swordsmen etc is just aWESOME. Definitely a 1 trick pony though due to the expensive elements of the hydra banner

-Rex

[Lakissov]

I use four units without crossbows. That should tell you that I don't use them to just run around and shoot.

In my list, the dark riders are there to go into CC and break stuff. They can negate rankd, and they can hunt war machines. More importantly, they have the manoeuvrability required to do both.

[Phierlihy]

Do you give them any command when you use them for CC?

[Lakissov]

only the musician
champion is useless waste of points as it has +1BS instead of +1A
banner is not very useful, as usually I will combo-charge with my ranked blocks which already have banners. beside, a banner on DR is 14 points against 10 points on warriors. and those 14 points would make the price of the unit 111 points instead of 97, which reduces its potential for use as a sacrificial unit.

still, I can see situations where a banner might actually be useful on DR. But in this case you should be really careful where you put that DR unit. deploy it when you already have a good idea of how the enemy battle line will look. don't put it against shooting troops - put the cheap units there. put it where it can eliminate small enemy support units - most likely on the weak enemy flank. a banner will help at winning combats against those small units, even when charging the front.

[Sulla]

One dirty trick i occasionally pull is to equip my mounted sorceress with the web of shadows. Vs a weakened enemy unit (especially one with no characters and only mediocre armour), I charge with the riders and challenge with the sorceress. Of course my opponents will always accept... it's only a sorceress after all. Then she springs the web and lays on the (admittedly mild) hurt.

On standards, I occasionally give my units a standard, musc and six riders if I am intending them to charge in support of a dragon or manticore highborn.

[Master of arneim]

With new rules about shooting (thinking about char and the chance of shooting even after you fleet from a charge) in my opinion the xbows are a must...then you can take over the enemy light cavarly making you the lord of movement phase... for cc I tend to use them in the last part of the game, excluding when they hit warmachine crew, but I don't think a standard would never fit in my Driders units, but a musician is always in.

[Sulla]

With new rules about shooting (thinking about char and the chance of shooting even after you fleet from a charge) in my opinion the xbows are a must...then you can take over the enemy light cavarly making you the lord of movement phase... for cc I tend to use them in the last part of the game, excluding when they hit warmachine crew, but I don't think a standard would never fit in my Driders units, but a musician is always in.

Due to the general overpricing of units in our list, equipping DR with crossbows should be seen as a luxury. Remember that a moving unit of 5 DR shooting at naked t3 at short range will amass roughly 1 and 2/3rds kills. The odds drop dramatically with any more shooting penalties, toughness or armour. So your 5 DR will often amass less than one kill per turn for over 20pts per unit.

That said, I often equip one of my 3 DR units with rxb in my low shooting armies just to keep mages 'honest'. In other words, to keep them mindful that if they pop out of their units for better LoS, I will plung away at them and maybe kill them.

But in general, rxb's are worthless on DR. The shooting penalties, combined with the poor strength of the weapons make them very poor value.

[Khaladmour]

That said, I often equip one of my 3 DR units with rxb in my low shooting armies just to keep mages 'honest'. In other words, to keep them mindful that if they pop out of their units for better LoS, I will plung away at them and maybe kill them.

IMHO, Shades are better for threatening mages.

But in general, rxb's are worthless on DR. The shooting penalties, combined with the poor strength of the weapons make them very poor value.

I agree with you. They are better off charging, where they have 1 S4 attack and 1 S3 attack, than shooting, where they have 2 S3 attacks. Plus, they will likely be hitting on 4s or 3s in combat and on 5s or 6s while shooting.

[Master of arneim]

But in general, rxb's are worthless on DR. The shooting penalties, combined with the poor strength of the weapons make them very poor value.

I've to disagree here... of course the point cost is very high, but the discussion is always the same... targeting heavy armoured units its surely useless, but in according with the rest of the army you get a coouple of units that can keep the enemy flanks (thinking about an He with fast cav or other armies with light troops on lateral side)... then you force enemy mages to stay in their units as said... if you get (as I usually do) a pack of harpies and shades, enemy mages will have very difficult time.

Then being around with some mobile shooting will always be boring for your enemy and in conjunction with RBT you'll manage to get some panic from several units.
At last it makes your Dr more flexible, and that's vital in tournaments.

I've to admit that at the beginning I never used xbows for the same reason you said, but when I started to use them I have never left them home.

Edit: I've forgotten the stand and shoot that can make them more likely pass enemy charges from fast and light troops.

[Lakissov]

really, even against light troops, DR are unlikely to score more than one kill. and that's because DR will be moving every turn - that's their function. so with multishot you always hit on 5s and 6s. and that increases the cost of the DR unit by 33%

instead of DR, use other units to shoot. when you want to get enemy fast troops away from the board, use RxB warriors and RBT - that's a cheaper way (even with RBT).

[Master of arneim]

@ Lassikov:
Yes xbowmen can be better, but you need to get 10 of them and it's not really common to get a complete line of sight from them to the enemy light horsemen... with drs you move but are always at short range, with xbows you are always in long range and probably moving to get a complete los to enemy. Then if there's no hill on the side you need, it means 10 xbowmen in line on the flank...I don't know if it's really worth taking another unit of 100-120 points when you can equip with 30 pts your drs.

About kills, with 5 drs with xbows you manage to do 2,22 death vs a T3 5+ As light cavalry... it means you'll always get a panic test and if you have near 5/6 shades it assure you to wipe out the enemy.

Then it's really up to everyone's list... you said you use 4 of them, I generally take only 2, but I think equipping or not is simply a different way of playing them, but I would suggest to make some experiments with xbows because they're not useless at all and serve me well anytime I get.

[Lakissov]

MoA,
the crossbows on them are in no way useless, just to my mind there are better ways to get that shooting.

with crossbow warriors, one unit is enogh to make sure that there will not be any light troops on one flank. you just set them as 10-wide line, and one round of shooting will damage any light unit significantly.

dark riders, in my experience, are rarely at short range to the target they would shoot at. the thing is, their main purpose is not shooting but doing something else. they're their to hunt warmachines or to get flank charges, with shooting being just an additional element. that means, that you are often shooting at long range. when hitting on 6+, you have a 56.5% chance of scoring no kills with your ten shots. and the chance to kill 2 or more is just 10.3%. for 5+ hitting, the corresponding figures are 30.8% and 30.7%, respectively. So unless at short range, the shots cause next to no result.

With crossbow warriors the situation is different. Their main purpose is shooting. They will usually hit on 5s, sometimes on 6s. But they will have 20 shots in the unit costing 120 points instead of 10 shots in a DR unit. which means that their chance to score two or more kills is 66.8% hitting on 5s and 30.6% hitting on 6s. And later in the game, they double up as flankers. Also, they are better at accepting charges from light units than DR because, first, there is no place where they need to be heading in the mean time, and, second, they have a better AS.

Of course this doesn't mean that DR should never be equipped with crossbows. This is more about the style you play. But still, in my humble opinion, these are points better spent elsewhere.

[Dark knight]

About kills, with 5 drs with xbows you manage to do 2,22 death vs a T3 5+ As light cavalry... it means you'll always get a panic test and if you have near 5/6 shades it assure you to wipe out the enemy.

How did you get that 2.22? I can't get that high number even if they have Herald and they haven't moved.
If they have moved and dont have the overpriced Herald they will be dealing 10 shots, which hit on 5+, wound on 4+ and then 5+ as. That would mean 3,33.. hits, 1,667 wounds and 1,111... unsaved wounds.

[Master of arneim]

How did you get that 2.22? I can't get that high number even if they have Herald and they haven't moved.
If they have moved and dont have the overpriced Herald they will be dealing 10 shots, which hit on 5+, wound on 4+ and then 5+ as. That would mean 3,33.. hits, 1,667 wounds and 1,111... unsaved wounds.

My fault, you're right, I've made a mistake in the first calculation (10*2/3 and not 10*1/3). Thanks for correcting me (I've to admit that these numbers surprised me too... )

The point to me remain, considering also the chance to march and shot. Then about charging warmachine crew, that is what I also tend to do, but I can also count on a lucky shot in the turn before... but the main thing in my opinion remain the kind of list you're palying.

I do not compare xbowmen with them because I've to say I'm a bit prejudiced towards them.

I still prefere having less shoot but more mobility then drs that can only charge enemy units. I said it: that make them more versatile... It should work better in a tourney list, but as said (too many times indeed) it's up to the list you're taking.

[Sulla]

IMHO, Shades are better for threatening mages.

But shades are not core, and special slots are often at a premium in my list. As are points.

Core DR can kill two birds with one stone.

Besides, often my most pressing need for missile troops usually comes when a necromancer hops out of a threatened unit and moves out of LoS. The DR can then race into LoS and pop off a hail of shots at him. The only others capable of this are any characters on flyers. Shades are worthless in this occasion as the necro would not be stupid enough to hop out of a unit into loS of any missile weapons.

[Black corsair]

I always use RXB with my DRs. I also like to flank charge with my DRs.

What I would really like to see in our next AB is the option to not take spears on DRs. Have them a base cost and then you can add what ever weapon you want. Spears and/or RXB.

[Raneth]

I often field rxbs on my DR for flank control. Then again, my lists usually lack the oh-so-common RBTs

[Malcom]

But shades are not core, and special slots are often at a premium in my list. As are points.

Core DR can kill two birds with one stone.

Besides, often my most pressing need for missile troops usually comes when a necromancer hops out of a threatened unit and moves out of LoS. The DR can then race into LoS and pop off a hail of shots at him. The only others capable of this are any characters on flyers. Shades are worthless in this occasion as the necro would not be stupid enough to hop out of a unit into loS of any missile weapons.

A huge advantage for DR is there versatility with rxb's, as stated, this allows you to take versatility out of your opponents army. In the above situation, and many like it, the opponent is forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. Face the oh so deadly DE in close combat or hope that the DR dont shoot him dead. If he decides to stand and fight the DR can now charge the flank and hopefully run down the entire unit. Either way necro ends up dead do to speed, not power.

[Asikari]

Equipping dark riders with rxbs is more of a distraction tactic for me. If I can target other fast cavalry or light infantry with the rxbs, suddenly I have a unit they can't afford to ignore because it will continue circling and stripping a pound of flesh every turn. Even worse if I can use the march to park myself in a safe place so the next turn's shots will be at short range without having needed to move.

Therefore, by pulling some focus onto the mosquito of the dark riders, my opponent removes his attention from the dedicated close combat units - chariots and cold one knights.

[Gastronauticon]

Do you think it would be too much to ask for a SDC-option for the DR in the new book? It would make them more competitive for 18pts (w/o rxbs...) and allow for meaningful action against shooty armies.

I mean; we all know that the "sea dragon" thinkgy is just a marketing ploy from the tanners guild (praise Khanie for their good craftmanship though).
It is not REAL sea dragon I tell you. Only rich nobles can afford that. Some of the, cheaper, Corsair kind even have the tribal glyphs left on them... Those are definetly affordable on a Dark Rider salary.

[Layne]

Not too much; but too late, certainly. Yes, people really hate having Dark Riders running rings around them and shooting while they do it. Even when it kills nothing, it furrows some brows I tell you. Hell they even hate it when Pistoliers do it.

But what's really cool is when they get used to this happening, and they forget that a rear charge from Dark Riders (or Pistoliers) can be nasty.

Layne.

[Uriain]

What I would like to know, is why take Dark riders in a list when you are fighting dwarves, or other units such as Outriders or Pistoliers. Out riders have more shots and hit you from the same range, while Pistoliers just move up and blast you. Dwarves, well the guy I play against has a turtle shell tactic and doesnt move cept for his Gyro copter. So what are the advantages of useing DR in these situations. I am frankly a little frustrated at how lack luster they are, though in their defence, I could be useing them all wrong, but warmachines on a hill make short work of everything in our army, so I am struggling to find a place in the list for em.

[Rabidnid]

What I would like to know, is why take Dark riders in a list when you are fighting dwarves, or other units such as Outriders or Pistoliers. Out riders have more shots and hit you from the same range, while Pistoliers just move up and blast you. Dwarves, well the guy I play against has a turtle shell tactic and doesnt move cept for his Gyro copter. So what are the advantages of useing DR in these situations. I am frankly a little frustrated at how lack luster they are, though in their defence, I could be useing them all wrong, but warmachines on a hill make short work of everything in our army, so I am struggling to find a place in the list for em.

Well, 97 for a unit of 5 with a muso, isn't much for a core choice in 2,000 points.

They nullify ranks when they charge from the flank or rear.

They charge 18" which means they shouldn't get shot unless you want them to be.

Hit somebody frontally with CoKs or witches, in the flank with DR and have a unit of harpies park behind them in the same turn they have been hit with "word of pain" and you will have a very sad enemy unit at the end of the combat.