Reaper Bolt Throwers

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Sligui_sg
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Reaper Bolt Throwers

Post by Sligui_sg »

I apologize is this has been posted and if so would like to be redirected to that post but if not (i looked a bit through the pages).

Anyways..... I was wondering... when do you use the 6 'weaker' shots of the bolt thrower and when you use the 1 'strong' shot?

Is it better to shoot a bunch of shots at ranked infantry or is it better to shoot that one rank piercing shot??

Obviously i want to maximize wounds and don't know exactly what would be better. Mabye a (!general!) list of "what is good against what" could help :D

Thanks so much!
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Post by Lord myki »

I always like to use the 6 shot spread for mass infantry, and counter-battery fire. I use the 1 hard shot for high armour infantry, heavy Cav., and large targets. However, I have used the 6 shot spread with 2 or more RBT's against Giants to great effect. That's my two cents worth.
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Post by Dalamar »

I gave myself a short points when to shoot what:
Always shoot 6 shots unless any of these conditions are met:
target has armour save of 4+ or better
or
target has toughness of 6 or better.

This way I ensure I never wound on 6 only and negate all armour to maximise kills.
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Post by Raneth »

If I use it, it's to mess up small support units that might be too tough for DR's rxb fire. 6-shot. Always. 8)
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Post by Vorchild »

Somebody put together some tables on this at one point to gauge which choice was better for various situation. I forget if it was probability of statistics based.

Personally, I only ever use the single shot for monsters and other large creatures or juicy flank shots to knights. Aside from those cases, its volley shots all the way (even at the face of a unit of empire knights).
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Post by Kefka »

I use the single shot only if my RbT is in line with a sweet shot, or on something big and tough. The 6 shots are best used everywhere else. As for against characters, I usually use the 1 shot, unless he's not very tough, then I use the 6 shots just to be sure.
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Post by Bounce »

I use Volley shots unless a lone character/monster is visible.
The problem with only 1 shot is it has a good chance of missing. Especially if shooting at long range on a single model.
It seems more impressive to shoot 12 Bolts which is the limit of some army's arrows.
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Post by The griefbringer »

The real division is that the volley is pretty much always going to score some hits, and has a decent chance to a do a wound or two against anything. The single shot, meanwhile, has a much better chance of missing entirely, but also the potential to kill 2 or 3 Ogres in a row--something the volley can never do.

Since my dice hate me as a rule, I always roll with the volley. I need to guarantee a hit or two before I can even start to worry about damage or armor saves.
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Linda lobsta defenda
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Post by Linda lobsta defenda »

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=23375 Funny what reading the Hall of fame for tactics can come up with :)
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Post by Raneth »

Why thank you Linda :D Just the link I needed for my ongoing anti-RBT propaganda campaign!
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Post by Demetrius »

I normally use 6 shots unless its against a flank of knights, monstrous creatures or its short range and a good chance of killing some stuff.
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Post by Vorchild »

Linda Lobsta Defenda wrote:http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=23375 Funny what reading the Hall of fame for tactics can come up with :)


I knew that was around here someplace. :)
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Post by Thanee »

Multiple shots are almost always better.

Using single shot only against huge monsters and single rank cavalry from the flank, pretty much.

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Post by Flying death »

just finished game vs dwarves.

vs great cannon and hellblaster volley gun, 6 shots is betten then single power shot. more chances of killing the guys supporting the battery. single shot good for taking out gun but not worth the miss when you have 6 shots that can (in theory) kill the support ( dont count on it though) .

also if you have two or three bolt throwers you can eliminate opposing artillery quickly then concentrate of field suppression.
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Post by Aginor26 »

In the case of really nasty cav units, particularly chaos chosen, i find myself often shooting the 1 shot into single ranked cav from the front. I play chaos a lot, and chosen knights are one of those units where sometimes you simply cant beat them in combat-so i try to whiddle the unit down as much as possible. Otherwise i completely agree, 6 shots all the way except against large targets.
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Post by Dark moonlight »

I would always use the 6 shots against things like goblins and gnoblar (large Light armoured units) or something without armour like slayers or a giant, also against other war machine crew. However against something with a high toughness or high armour.
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Post by Master of arneim »

It's all about statistical thinking. 6 shots are always the best (on numbers) except vs:

- Steam tank

I would not use the single bolt even vs a cavalry on flank.
Here some counts:
In short range it would be:

On cavalry with T3 and as2+

single bolt: 55% chance of getting 1 kill, 46% of getting 2 and 31% of getting 3.
multishot: 133% of getting 1 kill

Cavalry with T4 and as 2+

single bolt: 55% of getting 1 kill, 37% to kill 2.
multishot: 100% of getting 1 kill, and 0 to kill 2.

On a giant

single bolt: 55% chance of getting at least 1 wound, 37% of getting at least 2, 19% of getting 3.

multishot: chance of getting 1 wound 166%, that means 1st wound "sure" and 2nd at 66% of chance.

On a dragon (as3+ and T6)

single bolt: 42% to get at least 1 wound and 14% of getting 3.
multishot: 56% of getting 1 wound.

Treeman:

single bolt: 28% to take at least 1 wound, 9% of getting 3.
multishot: 37% to take 1 wound

Steam tank:

single bolt: 42% to get at least 1 wound and 14% of getting 3 wounds.
multishot: 28% to get 1 wound

As it is shown, it's quite always better take the multishot.
To be more precise, the single bolt allow you to take extra wounds with a smaller chance, while multishots can be more able to make 1 wound but will not do a second one easily. This is the case of Dragons, Treeman and Hevy cavalry, but:

-Dragon and treeman: a wound is not sure with either the multishot and the single bolt, so you can be convinced to get the single bolt to pick upt this 14-9% of chance to take even 3 wounds, also because the spread between 1 wound with multi and single is not so big.

-Heavy cavalry with T3: here I'd suggest to take the multishot... with this you're "sure" to kill 1 knight and get the chance (33%) of killing another one. With the single bolt you'll have the chance of killing more knights (46%) but you'll miss half of the time and not a single kill is "assured".

-Heavy cavalry with T4: here you get a "sure" kill with multi, but no more if you're counting the average. So you can go for the single bolt that doesn't assure the kill but can throw down more than 1 knight (that is very difficult with multishot, assuming that every little bolt can do 0,167 kills).

P.s: Probability can change if there is a mount on a dragon.
Last edited by Master of arneim on Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

Raneth wrote:Why thank you Linda :D Just the link I needed for my ongoing anti-RBT propaganda campaign!


Seriously. I remember when this was posted and just shook my head at how crappy the RBT is (I always felt it was overpriced, but this proved it mathematically).

I personally know the guy who did the math, and he is a Wall Street financial analyst so I trust his math skills completely and fully.
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Post by Lonewandererd »

i use the 1-shot skewer against massed rank and file units like skaven and empire, monsters and high armoured infantry (anyone up for Chaos on a stick?)

i use the 6 shot against skirmishers, lone characters and units where there isn't much potential for the 1-shot skewer to cause much damage (firing at a single rank cavalry unit head on)
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Post by Crawd »

lonewandererD wrote:i use the 1-shot skewer against massed rank and file units like skaven and empire


it's kinda risky since you can fail your single shot and 2 shots will be stronger and the 3 after will be weaker. In overall 6 shot at S4 is better.
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Post by [llct]kain »

I am sorry, but some of the figures and statements I must oppose

6 shots are always the best (on numbers) except vs:[...]
- Obviously Bretonnia

To my knowledge Bretonnia get a wardsave that improves if you have more than S4. So the multi shot with S4 and -2 to the AS is the best you can get for them.

multishot: 133% of getting 1 kill

A chance greater than 1 (e.g. 100%) is not possible at all. The numbers in the link of the Hall of fame are correct - even if they "seem" to be smaller for riders and mounts, that is because it only calculates the potential wounds on either the mount or the rider - but should be taken/displayed together.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

[LLCT]Kain wrote:I am sorry, but some of the figures and statements I must oppose

To my knowledge Bretonnia get a wardsave that improves if you have more than S4. So the multi shot with S4 and -2 to the AS is the best you can get for them.


I don't agree at all. The increased chance to wound and the total elimation of their armor save more than makes up for the slightly improved Ward Save they get from S5+. Single bolts are far superior against Bretonnian Knights...
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Post by Arcadian »

One of my main opponents is a Bretonnian General, and I tend to use the single shot quite effectively against his knights. To my experience the single shot tends to be more productive against his Questors and Realmies.
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Post by Endlessbug »

To my knowledge Bretonnia get a wardsave that improves if you have more than S4. So the multi shot with S4 and -2 to the AS is the best you can get for them.


I think its a ward save of strength 4 or more, anyone clarify? if this were the case then at short range
multi shot - 2.66 wound = 1.33 past armour and (6+ ward?) = 7/6 kills roughly.
single shot - 1/3 kills roughly.

so double shot is better still in any case :)

multishot: 133% of getting 1 kill

A chance greater than 1 (e.g. 100%) is not possible at all. The numbers in the link of the Hall of fame are correct - even if they "seem" to be smaller for riders and mounts, that is because it only calculates the potential wounds on either the mount or the rider - but should be taken/displayed together.


correct the percentage is miles off, even suggesting that you will always kill those 1.33 models. We know what he means though, which is:

at short range:

multi shot -6 shots = 4 hits = 2.66 wound = 1.33 kills on AVERAGE

His summary was generally correct on statistics however, you should ALWAYS use multishots except atgainst toughness 7 monsters!

think against a toughness 5 monster (assuming not a large target):
short range:
multi = 4 hits = 4/3 wounds
single = 0.66 hits = 0.44 wounds (if wounds multiply into d3 on average 2 wounds)

so you have a 44% change on single shot to cause 2 wounds where as on average you will cause 1.33 wounds with multi, meaning multi is better, more reliable by far.

When you move to a toughness 6 none large monster then the 2 guns balance out and it is largely irrelevant which you go for.

Obviously I havent taken account of armour/ward saves, characters riding these mounts or large targets.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

You aren't factoring in that a single bolt passes through ranks (ie most Bretonnian players use Lance formation)
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