Help against the Skaven Scum

[Sligui_sg]

OK so i have had a LOT of trouble fighting this army..... yes it's skaven... yes my born to fight, trained a thousand years, druchii are dying to thier 3 month old giant rats... I would like it to end

This is my opponents army:

1 Warlord
great weapon, heavy armour

1 Chieftan,
BSB, warbanner

2 Warlock Engineers
(Fully pumped up)
2 Dispel Scrolls, storm deamon

2 Units 25 Clanrats
Full command (minus champion)
1 ratling gun

1 unit 21 slaves

1 unit 20 night runners
2 hand weapons

1 unit of 5giant rat packs

2 units of 20 plague monks
full command, 2 hand weapons
one has banner of burning hatred

1 unit of 4 rat ogres

1 unit of 5 tunneling team

Warplightning Canon

6 Plague Censor Bearers

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Soo yes its a very BIG army that is full of nasty, nasty, rat-shaped surprises... ugh.... my list is:

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High Sorceress (peggy, tomb of furion, crown of black iron), lvl 4

2 Sorceresses (Each with a dispel scroll, one has darkstar claok, the other has seal of ghrond) , lvl 2

20 Warriors with sheilds and full command

10 Warriors with Sheilds and reapeter cross bows

5 Dark Riders with musician and RXB
5 Dark Riders with musician and RXB

12 Corsairs with full command

12 Witch Elves with standard, hag, manbane

7 Shades

5 harpies

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers


Please, i beg of you, help me out I have lost soo many games it's not funny...

I'm not really looking for improvements on the list (although i bet there should be) I'm more asking for tactics to kill these tail-things.

Also i am wanting to use the same list at a tourney this week-end (in Kingston, Ontario) So This is why I don't want to make major changes.


Thanks soooo much!!!!!!!!!!! I know this is a long post.....

[Swab]

Well, it would be good to know what is going with what squads, who is supporting who.

Yours and his general tactics.

[Sligui_sg]

Ok sorry about that...

His tactics:
He used to deploy his engineers as single models but after sniping them with my RBT on th first/second turn he has put one in each unit of clanrats. With my magic defence, however they are not so much a worry.

The BSB seems to be my biggest worry as I can never break the clanrat unit it is put into (it is deployed at the rear so i can't target it in combat) The extra 2 CR (warbanner) alnong wtih ranks and standar make this very difficult....although i guess i could possibly flank <---seems to be too hard to do with all the models however.

The General is usually never a problem. he is deployed in the second clanrat unit and is in the back just for leadership tests.

Ratling guns I snipe with the RBTs so not a problem.

The Plague Monks are soo powerful but he like to deploy them at the back of his army to 'finish off' anything else tha's left,,,

Plague Censor Bearers don't have heavy armoured targets so usually stick with the plague monks.

Gutter Runners are deployed to take out the RBT's (Hopefully not till turn 4 though... )

Yqah so it's usually a huge mess of models all over the board and is very hard to out menouvre and shooting never seems to deal enough damge (save for the RBT sniping)

Giant Rats are usually flankers along with nights runners. I actually find the giant rats very difficult to deal with as i never want to focus on this low point unit and the rank bonusus are insane!

The rat ogres are non-menueverable and are not too much a problem (wWitch elf poison and manbane)

slaves don't really do anythign ever... he dons't really use them to bait or anything....manly just to get in the way.

My Tactics: Last game i used dark magic on my high sorceress (black horror and dominion) and shadow for both my lvl 2. perhaps death would work better on my lvl 2s???? I deployed my darkstar cloak one with my 10 RXB and my other one with my RBT... (which didn't do too much but a combined steed of shadows and pit of shades took out the warp lightning cannon)

My 20 warriors are my hammer but lose gainst that awful 4+ armour save clan rat BSB wielding unit.

Witch Elves go for low armour... rat ogres and plague monks (but never really get to the plague monks )

I try to bait and flee and when i can flank charge with dark riders...

Corsairs are usually flankers. Shades hide in forest and snipe and or bait.
Hapires go for cannon as primary goal.

I have tried refused flank tactics some times which kind of work but still havn't got results.

please if you can help me out I hope i have supplied sufficient info
I guess the biggest worries are the clan rat units and the plague monks are hard as diamonds to break in combat.

[Rabidnid]

well you have a lot of redundant command and nothing that causes fear.

With the existing list you need to march block with the harpies and peg sorc. hit them with big spells - dark magic excells at this- and shoot the ratlings and plague monks first. A flank charge to nullify their moral bonus combined with a head on attack will take break everything but the plague monks. shoot them a lot.

Sword and shield will sort out clan rats - same save and better int, ws - but you need to hit them with a spell like word of pain or soul stealer to cut them down.

life taker on one of the level 2s will free up the RBT to kill bigger things.

[Sligui_sg]

hmm which lores should the two lvl 2's have then? What do you reccomend?
Dark magic i think is a must for the lvl 4 but i don't konw whayt else. Should i put a hrdra in? is That worth taking RXB men out? Or something else?

Getting a flank charge AND frontal is difficult to do becuase of the large amount fo models on the board. ( O yah terrain is never to 'busy')

Thanks for the fast reply btw!

edit: What redundant command? the Corsairs?

[Rabidnid]

hmm which lores should the two lvl 2's have then? What do you reccomend?
Dark magic i think is a must for the lvl 4 but i don't konw whayt else. Should i put a hrdra in? is That worth taking RXB men out? Or something else?

Getting a flank charge AND frontal is difficult to do becuase of the large amount fo models on the board. ( O yah terrain is never to 'busy')

Thanks for the fast reply btw!

edit: What redundant command? the Corsairs?

Yes corsairs are only flankers so don't need it. I think you need more shooting and a unit of Coks can auto break the clanrats if they beat them.

Dark for everybody as shadow isn't good versus high initiative. Once the ratlings are gone, he has no shooting to speak of and the girls will be able to wander around close getting the best from their spells.

All just ideas. The skaven I have seen are very different tactically.

edit: a hydra might work runningthrough terrain to get on the flank of a block, combined with a fronta hit from Coks, it is a dead unit.

[Vorchild]

1 unit 20 night runners
2 hand weapons

Really? I have to admit, I've never seen anyone bother to do this before.

In that army, the plague monks scare me a bit, but there's not much you can do about it with your army.

As an interesting trick, you may want to consider the crystal of midnight. Makes one of those rat wizards pretty much useless and rendering his magic phase null and void. Assassinate the other if you need to with a suicide charge from harpies or DR.

You're got enough magic dominance and shooting that if you stick with as many MMs as possible, you should be getting panic checks and whittling away ranks before he gets to you (don't bother focusing on the monks). Use death on all wizards for the missiles and psych spells - but really for the MMs.

My advice to to refuse flank (you've tried this, but keep at it) but be careful in deployment. Put down the DR and harpies in the middle and force him to either pick a side or bulk up his middle. Use terrain to your advantage in forcing a certain line. Then bulk up on one side, forcing him to come at you in pieces (while you slow down the other half with DR and harpies). This will let you get a couple rounds of shooting in - focus on the clanrats - and maybe get a couple panic tests to slow him some more. Wait with the witches and corsairs and charge when he gets close enough. Keep them in front a bit and play around with the distance to keep him a bit more honest and not rush ahead full move (which would allow you to charge him).

DE are one of those armies that you can deploy to look offensive, but feel comfortable in waiting for them to come to you. So, be patient. He's got no ranged weapons to speak of beyond the cannon (which the harpies should make quick work of) and the magic (which in this case should be easily nullified). All he's got left is to move forward and engage after getting shot at.

[Cathel]

I think you need more shooting and a unit of Coks can auto break the clanrats if they beat them.

I don't think this will work, because you lack numbers in the COK. Or you make them so big a unit that they are a very juicy target to ratlings / WLC.

Watch out for them night runners. The skaven I played against used two small units and put them around his weapon teams. No LOS for me, when he wanted to shoot he moved the night runners aside. Usually you only get one shot at them.

[Manticoreslair]

i have one piece of advice i can give.
1- only march block half his army. using the shades and harpies march block half his army while shooting them with every gun you have, and use the harpies to charge in the rear. this will leave the other half of his army a hell of a way away from the other. this means you are clear for the flank charges.
so set up a charge with spearmen (hand weapon and shields) in the flank with a charge from the riders or corsairs in the front, but also to charge the unit next to it with the other spearmen.
This means when the riders and spearmen have destroyed the unit, with outnumber, flank, ranks, standard, or at least won combat seeing as now they dont get the rank bonus to the leadership, the unit will be destroyed, or if they run they will run away from the unit with highest US, aka the spearmen, hopefully panicing a unit or two.
and will allow you to overrun into the next combat with the second unit of spearmen with everything, or to overrun behind the enemy lines if the unit is totally destroyed.
if you do overrun into the next unit, the unit that overran can fight again. and this combat should be won easily too, meaning you have taken out two units in one turn. then when you over run again after this combat the unit you engage will be unable to move, you will be in the flank, and you count as charging, this means half his army is taken care of. while the other half is trying to swat harpies or shades but to no avail.or moving so slow that they have no effect on the battle.
and PS always dark magic, dominion on a unit that likes to move far and flank is just too funny not to take. and soul stealer on a huge unit of slaves, (with their save of 6+ if they take upgrades) or giant rats is funny to see half of them get swallowed and take your sorceresses to 4/6 wounds and then watch them flee.

[Shadeon]

Speaking as someone who has both Dark Elves and Skaven, here are my thoughts :

The rat ogres are 200 free victory points. Virtually any shooting you direct at these is going to make them hurt, a lot. They also have serious problems competing with CR and against troops that have a good chance of striking back (Spearmen are a good example).

Taking out those two mages should be a good priority, Once his magic has been neutralised, you can really put on the pain. Death may actually be one of the best lores you can take against skaven, as several spells are really, really going to cause problems. 2d6 str 4 hits (no armour to contest with), Upgrading fear causes to terror and Doom and Darkness are all spells he really can't afford to let you get off.

Plague monks suffer against anything that has an armour save a lot more than you'd think. Use the burning banner of hatred against him, and draw it into a position where the monks can charge but the censor bearers can't.

The best advice really is, threaten flanks whenever you can. Force his charges to align such that he is vulnerable to counter charges, and he probably won't risk it. If Skaven loose their ranks, the unit is toast.

I know you said that you didn't want to change the composition much, but you really should consider a chariot or two. Their high toughness is problematic for the list he has chosen outside of magic / ratling guns, and the impact hits are going to reduce virtually anything in the list to piles of goo very very quickly. Even the clanrats won't have an armour save if you can get in the flank, and since you'll be wounding on twos, the combat res is going to go in your favor if you're ranked up to the front.

Good luck, you've got a slight uphill battle with your selection, but it is more than possible!

[Sligui_sg]

WOW!!! thanks everyone for the helpful (very helpful) posts!

I just played a pitched battle and would like to highlight a few things:

(O yeah and the skaven player is my brother)

1. I WON! ha ah on my 3rd turn (i went second) i was still in my shooting phase and he was clearing his units off the table saying "you win... this sucks" --- talk about sore losing

2. I may have done x-tra well becuase he was 'trying something new'. He placed both engineers in one clan rat unit and his general and BSB in a unit of slaves! <----stupid! So i don't really think that i 'won' as badly as i would have if he played his 'usual' way.

3. My magic phase kicked skaven-tail. I used dark magic throughout the list. After i succesfully cast black horror into the engineer/clan rat unit and they fled, i was able to let lose a dominion on his ogres and and word of pain on a unit of threatening plague monks (however this was the turn he gave up so i don't know how it would have played out but i can guess )

4. I tried the refused flank with dark riders (both units) and harpies and shades (in a centre wood) in centre and everything else to the left where there was a hill for my RBT and my crossbowmen. He made the (skaven-brained) decision to put both his monks (stuck behind another hill) and a clanrat unit on the right side of the board. (I guess he was worried of my 'fast' units)

5. He only has 1 (one) rattling gun which i either shoot with the RBT on turn one or use my shades or dark riders (this gmae i useed the dark riders) to kill. The Warplightning cannon annoyed me as it did 2 wounds to my high sorceress and her pegasus died from a warplightning spell (blast!).

***Am i correct that i can target the ratling guns as of 7th addition rules?***

I would consider a chariot but he always targets the chariots first with eh WLC(i play beastmen also and have 4 chariots in that army). However i want this army playable at ternaments as well and one might be appropriate??

Thanks again for all the advice so far! More is definitly appreciated!!!!

~Sligui

[Raneth]

- Lifetaker is gold against weapon teams and lone Locks
- Death Magic is devastating against cowardly rats
- Fear and Terror are game breakers

I would say more but I'd just be repeating the others.

[Akimoto]

I too have entertained the idea of the ratlike ones, and i don't think your brothers list is THAT worrying... that being said;
- yes you can target weapon teams, to many skaven player's dismay
- i would follow the advice of some of the others and have atleast one sorceress with death magic, as skaven fail at Ld tests.
- depending on how he deploys his units, you can just bait the plague monks, or if they really worry you, magic missiles, they're only T4 no saves
- harpies get rid of the warp lightning cannon, it must flee response if someone declares charge on it
- hydra would be nice as would chariots and knights (fear and terror are your friends), just avoid ratlings and lightning if possible for obvious reasons...

just be glad it isn't anything too skaven like, aka 4+ ratling guns, 2 warp lighting cannons. and personally i have a nice little plague priest who can have (off the top off my head) 5 strength 8 attacks and a 4+ ward save

[Shadeon]

I would consider a chariot but he always targets the chariots first with eh WLC(i play beastmen also and have 4 chariots in that army). However i want this army playable at ternaments as well and one might be appropriate??

The WLC can't target everything, hills are your friend in this. As long as the WLC is on one side of the hill, and the chariot is on the otherside, he can't target it. You'll can use this to your advantage by either forcing him to place it in a certain location, and setting up the harpies nice and close to deal with it quickly, or if he wises up to that one use the location of the harpies to "cover" the chariot from any fire around said hill.

At a tournament, the chariot will be very useful as a fear causing T5 chariot is troublesome for a surprising number of armies to deal with. If I were you, I'd take 2 for 1 while you can, as their dirt cheap. Against skaven I wouldn't bother equiping them with crossbows, but those extra 8 shots can do a surprising amount for 20pts sometimes....

and personally i have a nice little plague priest who can have (off the top off my head) 5 strength 8 attacks and a 4+ ward save

he he he... yeah. I don't bother taking a warlord usually, my Plague priest has killed so many enemy lords and heroes (and even gone with the monks to single handedly destroy an entire Orc army before.. overrunning in your oponents phase and charging in yours for 3 turns solid will do that..) theres not a lot of point.

Beware the addition of one of these to your brothers army, especially if he equips it with a Plague Censer and sticks it in the Plague Monks.

[Rabidnid]

Well done on the win !

Dark magic is very good against most oppoents. its always worth matching your magic to your oppoent.

I think you need more shooting and a unit of Coks can auto break the clanrats if they beat them.

I don't think this will work, because you lack numbers in the COK. Or you make them so big a unit that they are a very juicy target to ratlings / WLC.

Not in isolation no, but a suitably thinned out unit will go without reference to their potentially monstrous moral modifiers for ranks, BSB, etc, which you find in most scaven armies.

Its just another thing for them to worry about.

[Cathel]

Not in isolation no, but a suitably thinned out unit will go without reference to their potentially monstrous moral modifiers for ranks, BSB, etc, which you find in most scaven armies.

How big do you normally make your COK units? I fight small battles only, so more than 5 is very seldom.
If you already took out 15 of the clanrats they are not much of a threat anyway.

[Thanee]

I usually play a unit of 10 Cold One Knights in a 2000-2500 list.

Sometimes I play smaller units of 5-6 only, but then usually with support form a Noble (regular or BSB).

Bye
Thanee

[Rabidnid]

Not in isolation no, but a suitably thinned out unit will go without reference to their potentially monstrous moral modifiers for ranks, BSB, etc, which you find in most scaven armies.

How big do you normally make your COK units? I fight small battles only, so more than 5 is very seldom.
If you already took out 15 of the clanrats they are not much of a threat anyway.

5-8 naked

Plus peg nob with deathmask

Plus chariot or hydra

Flanking with a hydra and then hit frontally with CoKs will see off just about anything. A peg nob or harpies behind to ensure they are destroyed is a bonus.

[Phierlihy]

I find it interesting that you bring three rather expensive mages when DE magic isn't really all that potent. There are a few killy spells but most only cripple and lots of magic means less elite models on the battlefield. I've always thought it was a bit of poor army design that way. If you can make it work though, good on ya!!

[Sligui_sg]

I guess i figured (and still do) that black horror will deal massive damage to the clanrat and plague monk units. Also, soul stealer worked wonders on a giant rat unit, my high sorceress went from 1 wound (left) to 6 (i used it twice).

Also, IMO, Dominion works WONDERS! Doombolt is an ok magic missile, and word of pain is crippling (like you said -- although i believe it is in a good way). Yes the range is mediocre, but that's what the pegasus is for isn't it?

If I'm going to go with magic, I might as well go heavy on it and the 2 lvl 2's provide good defence as well as aid with the offence. I will be going to a tournament in 2 days so i will let you know how it worked out. (It's my first ever so it will prolly not go so well... ha ha)

Also, I was thinking, in general, would it be a good idea to include a noble with minimum armour and the death mask. He will be parked in the 20 warrior unit. This should give a nasty surprise for my opponent (especially in a tourny situation where they will not be expecting it) Also immunity to fear (and terror) will help a bit i'm guessing overall.

I say this because by taking out a few things here and there (but virtually keeeping the list the same ---just a bit of command altering --- I see i have 127 points to spend) I feal another unit of dark riders (therefore there will be 3) would be helpful but until i have the models...would it be a good idea to go with the nobel?

Thanks!

[Rabidnid]

I guess i figured (and still do) that black horror will deal massive damage to the clanrat and plague monk units. Also, soul stealer worked wonders on a giant rat unit, my high sorceress went from 1 wound (left) to 6 (i used it twice).

Also, IMO, Dominion works WONDERS! Doombolt is an ok magic missile, and word of pain is crippling (like you said -- although i believe it is in a good way). Yes the range is mediocre, but that's what the pegasus is for isn't it?

If I'm going to go with magic, I might as well go heavy on it and the 2 lvl 2's provide good defence as well as aid with the offence. I will be going to a tournament in 2 days so i will let you know how it worked out. (It's my first ever so it will prolly not go so well... ha ha)

Also, I was thinking, in general, would it be a good idea to include a noble with minimum armour and the death mask. He will be parked in the 20 warrior unit. This should give a nasty surprise for my opponent (especially in a tourny situation where they will not be expecting it) Also immunity to fear (and terror) will help a bit i'm guessing overall.

I say this because by taking out a few things here and there (but virtually keeeping the list the same ---just a bit of command altering --- I see i have 127 points to spend) I feal another unit of dark riders (therefore there will be 3) would be helpful but until i have the models...would it be a good idea to go with the nobel?

Thanks!

Sounds like a plan without extra figures to use. I would give him full kit instead though, blood armour and chillblade or sword of might, and a RXB. it will make your anvil much tougher and give you a way to kill erthereals apart from spells.

And yes black horror is a very scary spell to just about everybody.

[Rakarath the beastlord]

the rats are annoying cause of numbers but also thier cannon take out that cannon cause being on the wrong end of it is not very healthy