Shadow magic, and why you should take it

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Loopyloops
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Shadow magic, and why you should take it

Post by Loopyloops »

Shadow magic versus Dark Magic for me is sometimes a difficult choice.

I love being able to stop speific units from causing me pain with Dark Magic, and word of pain is great in combat. But other than that, I find the rest of dark magic...less that useful.

Shadow magic has many more uses.

Steed of Shadows: my second favorite Shadow Magic spell. A simply amazing spell.
"But it only allows you to move 1 foot soldier around, that's useless." Well let's talk about it's most obvious use. You charge your sorceress unit into combat, because you needed to. You're opponet licks his chops and eagerly accepts that charge. And then in the magic phase you fly 20" away and let your opponet suffer his greedy fate. That's an obvious use. Saving foot models...
Second use: my favorite use for this spell...moving 1 lowely warrior around. "But how is THAT useful, what the hell is one guy going to do?" Well, my friend, you know your exposed flank of your generals CoK unit, the one you let your opponet get his Blood knights within charge range of? Well, you can fly a guy right into their charge path, and maybe another one right behind him with your other sorceress, so he charges your one guy, slaughters him, and charges into your other guy the following turn. Your warhmachine about to get destroyed by some fast cav that you let get around because you were focused on winning the main battle? Fly some guys in their path and stall them.

Unseenlurker: Does the sex of this spell need any explaining? The best manuevarable army, that get's another movement phase if you have enough sorcs that can cast it. Awesome. CoKs with the banner of murder? Executes with the banner of murder? a potential 26" movement with executuoners. You can charge any unit you want with your CoK the first turn of the game. Scary? Oh hell yes.

Pit of Shades: Ah, the great slayer of the vargufl, undead, orks, warmachines, dwarfs, and anything else with crap intiative. Take an initiative test and pass, or you're a dead mofo. Sexy snipey spell? Of course.


The other spells:

The one that makes your unit cause fear can be useful in the right situtation, definatly useful against undead.

The 2d6 str 1 creeping doom spell is pretty worthless, and the d6 str 4 spell, crown of some dead dude, is pretty useless too.


Shadow magic is the best lore we can use. Use it often. My advice, if you have 4 sorcs, get one dark magic. But other than that, the usefulness of shadow magic is better.

However, this may only be because I like to play to my army's greatest strength, it's manueverability and magical sumpremcy. But if you enjoy a more defensive, less useful lore that doesn't complement your army as well, go with Dark Magic.

Shadow magic normally leaves my defeated opponets screaming "trixsey elfs!".

enjoy it, use it, love it: Shadow Magic - the sexy lore.
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Post by Dalamar »

Shadow Magic is fine except first spell being useless in most of my armies.
As I don't have characters on foot... and if I do it's lev 1 scroll caddy with lore of death.
You clearly use steed of shadows wrongly as you can only move single *character* models on foot. Not any rank and file warrior.
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Post by Minsc »

Well let's talk about it's most obvious use. You charge your sorceress unit into combat, because you needed to. You're opponet licks his chops and eagerly accepts that charge. And then in the magic phase you fly 20" away and let your opponet suffer his greedy fate. That's an obvious use. Saving foot models...


Challenges are declared in the closecombat phase, so it would occur after the magicphase.

Second use: my favorite use for this spell...moving 1 lowely warrior around.


Only characters can benefit from SoShadows, not RnF-modells.

SoShadows is imo good for getting that fragile sorceress out of combat, or casting it on a fighty charachter, and let him fly-charge that warmachine/small unit of ranged infantry etc.

Unseenlurker:


One of the best spells in the game.

Pit of Shades


What you said.

The 2d6 str 1 creeping doom spell is pretty worthless, and the d6 str 4 spell, crown of some dead dude, is pretty useless too.


Creeping Death is rather usefull vs T3/T4 knights.
It kills on average 2 modells, thats alot of points if we're talking Chosen Chaos Knights or Knights of the Blood Keep.

Crown of Taidron is awesome if you can hurt your opponent more than yourself when you cast it.

However, I would only ever take Shadow Magic on a lvl 4.
On Lvl 2's its Death/Dark all the way.
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Post by Izirath »

I like Shadow magic alot. My friend was using a 2nd Gen Slann. He was pretty surprised when I used unseen lurker and charged his Salamanders with my DR. And now he has opened his eyes to shadow magic.
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Post by Kensou »

Another use for steed of shadows:
give a lvl1 sorc the deathmask and charge first turn with her. Terrored a unit of 20 Swordmasters of the table on turn 1.

steed of shadows has it's uses, as stated before.

Creeping death is somewhat usefull. (it did kill 4 CoK in a single go :()

Crown of Taidron is a sucky version of the Drain life spell in the lore of Death.

Shades of Death is the same spell as the one in the lore of Death.

Unseen lurker, IMO there are more reliable ways to get the charge you want.

Pit of shades, no experience with this one.

If I compare Shadow with Death, I'll take death anytime I don't feel like terrorbombing units on turn 1, which isn't quite often.
Last edited by Kensou on Mon May 12, 2008 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ant »

IMO this is very bad advice. Sure, shadow magic is good if you get the 2 big spells (and only then if you are fighting something with a low I). But if you don't get these spells what you are left with is extremely situational and often useless. Because of this I would pretty much only ever consider taking shadow with a high sorceress, who can both cast these high value spells reliably and have a reasonable chance of getting them in the first place. And even then I'd only take it if I was fighting a slaan, Dwarfs, or possibly artillery heavy empire.

In pretty much all other cases, Death is a much better lore (for both hero and lord level casters), more versatile, a much better first spell and reliable damage potential. Dark is also good if you have the speed and manouverability to get close enough to cast many of the spells (and probably has the best first spell in the game), but it also rarely beats death in my mind because of these range issues and the simple reliability of the death lore.
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Post by Kyrel »

I have to agree with Ant on this one. Personally I hardly ever use Shadow. It's just too damned situational. Sure, Unseen Lurker is nice, but that's 1 in 6 spells, and the SoS default spell is just utter crap.

Personally I'm sticking with the Dark Art or Lore of Death. Disruption or destruction.
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Post by Loopyloops »

Wow... Please ignore most of what I said as I'm a cheater...


I feel really bad about that game now...


because that's how I almost beat this VC player at my place...

I can't believe we missed that.


Sorry.


I need to appolgize to that VC guy now. Wow... Well I've only ever done that in one game, and it seemed really really useful. Damn.
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Post by Dalamar »

Heh, it happens sometimes don't feel too bad
Just apologise to your enemy, point out the rule for him so you both know for the next time
and play again :D
Lore of Shadows isn't bad... it's just heavily situational with bad level 1 spell so it's ill suited for level 2 mages... as more often than not they will be stuck with 1 useless and 1 situational spell.
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Post by Demetrius »

Shadow is good if you tailor your army around it.
If you have no mounted characters it would be great.

I have used it a few times to some success but Dark Magic at the moment is the top for me as I prefer to use mounted Noble/ Highborn.
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Post by Ukko »

Love the lore of shadows! Use it with my HoC list all the time, it's a fantastic support lore. Only two problems with it -
1. Default spell means you need characters on foot (I used to steed of shadows an exalted with GW into chariots or war machines - cut to image of 'cloud of dust where target used to be..') but it doesn't seem great for DE.
2. Crown of Taidron - just... s**t, no other word for that spell.
Seems like a good lore for a lv4 HS though? Suppose it depends on the game and the list.
Creeing death is brillant! Knights, Black Orcs, etc - the ignoring armour saves is brilliant. The other spells - who doesn't like free moves, causing fear and destroying artillery, dwarf units, etc?
Love the lore of shadows, just a little nervous when I'm rolling for spells - tome of furion's not a bad idea
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Post by Dalamar »

I might be using Lore of Shadow regularly on my High Sorcerer... then 1st spell will be quite useful for when he loses the pegasus. He'll still be able to fly around :P
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Re: Shadow magic, and why you should take it

Post by Mr. anderson »

Loopyloops wrote:Shadow magic versus Dark Magic for me is sometimes a difficult choice.


Yes because Dark magic is so much better ;)

I love being able to stop speific units from causing me pain with Dark Magic, and word of pain is great in combat. But other than that, I find the rest of dark magic...less that useful.


Hmm... D6 S5 hits are horrible and Black horror is plain useless... :?

Shadow magic has many more uses.

No it doesn't, not for me at least. The damages spells are awesome, especially Black Horror is great (actually one of the best damage spells around, provided your target is S4 or less). D6 S5 hits are not to be sniffed at. Domination is one of the most useful spells for an army that has to dominate the movement phase to be able to choose the fights and Word of pain is great to avoid being slaughtered by waywatchers or wardancers or swordmasters etc etc....

Steed of Shadows: my second favorite Shadow Magic spell. A simply amazing spell.
"But it only allows you to move 1 foot soldier around, that's useless." Well let's talk about it's most obvious use. You charge your sorceress unit into combat, because you needed to. You're opponet licks his chops and eagerly accepts that charge. And then in the magic phase you fly 20" away and let your opponet suffer his greedy fate. That's an obvious use. Saving foot models...


Yep... it is as obvious to you as it is to your opponent and he or she will gladly sacrifice the dispel dice to chop your sorceress away, not only because she's a lot of points, also because killing her gives whichever unit killed her some extra movement...

Second use: my favorite use for this spell...moving 1 lowely warrior around. "But how is THAT useful, what the hell is one guy going to do?" Well, my friend, you know your exposed flank of your generals CoK unit, the one you let your opponet get his Blood knights within charge range of? Well, you can fly a guy right into their charge path, and maybe another one right behind him with your other sorceress, so he charges your one guy, slaughters him, and charges into your other guy the following turn. Your warhmachine about to get destroyed by some fast cav that you let get around because you were focused on winning the main battle? Fly some guys in their path and stall them.


That only works if you have enough single guys to play suicide bombers with and given the fat that you normally only have two fighting heroes if you expect any of your spells to be cast it would be a horrible waste to sacrifice one of them in order to save a war machine. Of course you could expose a unit of warriors long enough to shooting so that there is only one guy left by the end... Next: you rely on magic to save the day for you... honestly, I'd rather rely on something else such as executioner stats or witchelf characteristics...
Unseenlurker: Does the sex of this spell need any explaining? The best manuevarable army, that get's another movement phase if you have enough sorcs that can cast it. Awesome. CoKs with the banner of murder? Executes with the banner of murder? a potential 26" movement with executuoners. You can charge any unit you want with your CoK the first turn of the game. Scary? Oh hell yes.


It is indeed scary... the banner of murder is only of use in the movement phase because you have to declare a charge in order to use it... And since there are no declared charges in the magic phase poor old banner of murder can only look pretty but do nothing useful for you knights.
Pit of Shades: Ah, the great slayer of the vargufl, undead, orks, warmachines, dwarfs, and anything else with crap intiative. Take an initiative test and pass, or you're a dead mofo. Sexy snipey spell? Of course.


Of course most armies with crap initiative have great means of avoiding being hit by such a spell: magic against dwarves = blowing in the wind (Hurricane...), Undead need such an offensive lot of magic to keep them going that inevitably their magical defence is strong too. Ork characters have a high enough Initative to keep them going. But I agree that it is a nasty surprise if it works. But I am quite sure that look out sir works against it too.

The other spells:
The one that makes your unit cause fear can be useful in the right situtation, definatly useful against undead.

True.

The 2d6 str 1 creeping doom spell is pretty worthless, and the d6 str 4 spell, crown of some dead dude, is pretty useless too.


Actually one of the few great combos lore of shadows allows is to use steed of shadows and then blast away with crown of taidron...
Shadow magic is the best lore we can use. Use it often.


Not really for me, I prefer Dark and Death magic.
My advice, if you have 4 sorcs, get one dark magic. But other than that, the usefulness of shadow magic is better.


My advice: If you have 4 sorceresses, buy some fighting heroes: they are cheaper and more reliable. Honestly, I have tried using lots of magic and when it worked I was a powergamer. When it did not I was an idiot. What can I tell you: neither of those names is pretty and neither of them makes you more popular. I was called an idiot more often than a powergamer.


However, this may only be because I like to play to my army's greatest strength, it's manueverability and magical sumpremcy. But if you enjoy a more defensive, less useful lore that doesn't complement your army as well, go with Dark Magic.


Sorry but that is a bit... weird. There certainly is more than one way to play Dark elves and Dark magic is IMHO more useful than shadow magic ever was (even though I liked it more in the 6th edition). Magical supremacy goes to high elves, lizardmen and empire but certainly not to dark elves. Manoeuvrability is indeed something Dark elves have gotten a lot of and because of that we only really ever need to boost our manoeuvrability against wood elves and that is only because we want to catch them in combat at some point.

Shadow magic normally leaves my defeated opponets screaming "trixsey elfs!".

enjoy it, use it, love it: Shadow Magic - the sexy lore.


Shadow magic normally isn't at all contributing to my victories and in fact every time I have used the lore of shadows my sorceress casted spells to draw dispel dice and otherwise was a scroll caddy, nothing more.

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Post by Bounce »

I have never used Shadow Magic but gone with Death or Dark every time.
The look on your opponents face when they realise Black horror has almost wiped out their unit or Drain life will affect 5 units is priceless,

For me blasting your opponent to pieces is more fun than subtle manourvring spells.
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Re: Shadow magic, and why you should take it

Post by Camaris »

Mr. Anderson wrote:
Of course most armies with crap initiative have great means of avoiding being hit by such a spell: magic against dwarves = blowing in the wind (Hurricane...), Undead need such an offensive lot of magic to keep them going that inevitably their magical defence is strong too. Ork characters have a high enough Initative to keep them going. But I agree that it is a nasty surprise if it works. But I am quite sure that look out sir works against it too.


Are you sure look out sir works? I was under the impression that it was only for stone thrower type of stuff.
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Post by Dalamar »

Look out sir! works for any template attack.
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Post by Scareypete »

Yes Look Out Sir will save you from pit of Shades.... Provied the pit isn't under your General and his Poor Dragon... Damn High Elf Wizard.

Honestly as much as I would love to drop Pit of Shades on my enemies... The First Spell in the Shadows list sucks so bad that I don't risk it. I consider Tome of Furion better spent getting a Variety of Usefull spells from Death or Dark magic rather than hoping for the best with Shadow magic.

Of course I Either avoid magic altogether or go magic heavy and with heavy Magic Its usually a L4 Sorc on Cold One with Dark magic and a L2 Sorc on foot with Death.
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Post by Raneth »

Base a Lore's usefulness by its only guarantee (the default spell).

Steed of Shadows is good with a lot of footslogger characters in your list. Unfortunately, this makes for a subpar list in itself as mounts are, like, THE BEST character force multipliers available.
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Post by Demetrius »

Actually I just though if you had an Assassin in your list, Shadow magic would be quite useful to take out war machines or skirmishers ect
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Post by Steve tu »

I never think you should base a lore on a direct comparison between spell lists but on the armies you face.

Against Lizardmen, shadow all the way: Pit for the slann/general use, creeping death is a great skink killer and the movement spell is also good.

Against elves it would be dark or death.

On lvl2's though, I would agree with Raneth, the base spell is a big consideration so would only really take shadow on a lvl4 anyway.
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Post by Dalamar »

If you can pull off Pit of Shades against Lizardmen/Dwarves (prime targets for low I)... then you're either very lucky or went full out magic and it wouldn't make any difference.
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Post by Raneth »

Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:Actually I just though if you had an Assassin in your list, Shadow magic would be quite useful to take out war machines or skirmishers ect

Which results in your Druchii trying to do what Clan Eshin does way better. And again, merely having an Assassin in your army means it's not as good as can be (more of a flavour choice huh). Other Hero choices are simply better :(

Maybe, in the new AB, Sins will be viable again. I doubt it will herald a revival of the Shadow Lore though; the stories on Dark Magic are juicy to say the least. 8)
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Post by Ptw »

Hey- don't happen to have a rulebook on me so this might end up being a silly statement. Does it say in SoS that you have to move your character? How cool would it be to fly the enemy's characters inches and inches away from the action? Or even better- right in front of a unit of hungry CoK? Now that I write this, I think SoS can't be this good....
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Post by The griefbringer »

ptw wrote:Hey- don't happen to have a rulebook on me so this might end up being a silly statement. Does it say in SoS that you have to move your character? How cool would it be to fly the enemy's characters inches and inches away from the action? Or even better- right in front of a unit of hungry CoK? Now that I write this, I think SoS can't be this good....


Would be cool, yes, but not legal. It says 'friendly character.' Alas!

BTW: If I *could* fly enemy characters around, I would take Shadow Lore in a heartbeat. See you later, Thane o' Pain!
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Post by Raneth »

Or better yet: snatch Thorek away from his Anvil :P
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