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Cauldron of Blood 
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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Whats really funny is how people are so up in arms about how good or possibly overpowered the new cauldron is going to be if it gives units +1AotC.
But in reality if this is all it does its going to be statistically worse then the current cauldron for witches, its also rumored to only effect elites.

If it just gives +1AotC and not also reroll failed rolls to wound, then the unit that will take advantage of it most is going to be the rumored Execs.

Just goes to show that if enough uninformed and inexperienced people whine about an unit long enough they can get it changed. unfortunately this change actually makes the cauldron worse. (granted this is purely based off of rumor)


Wed May 21, 2008 8:31 am
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guess that's just gonna be fluff. or maybe symbolizing that +1A to elite infantry units in range...

edit: i realized something i said was wrong :P


Last edited by Vandal delle 3v on Wed May 21, 2008 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed May 21, 2008 9:01 am
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If my witch elves and executioners will be more viable for use in new book, then you can bet on me using cauldron alongside some nice rare that's not bolt throwers :P

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Wed May 21, 2008 11:18 am
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Highborn

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Quote:
Hopefully the cauldron will be useful on a much wider scale with the new book.
This comment leads me to consider that the new CoB could - 1. Have wheels, and consequently be available to influence the Dark Elf Army on a `much wider scale` due to it`s new found mobility. Or - 2. Not have wheels, but have a much larger, or effectively unlimited, sphere of effect, hence the ability to be useful on a much wider scale. DA has inside knowledge, and I don`t believe he`d tease us with such a positive comment unless there was SOME truth to it.

Then again, DA IS a Dark Elf...

Either way, it`s sure to be an improvement. Introducing Frenzy across the board to all Dark Elf troops in range is too over the top to be considered credible IMHO.

I`ll have to eat my words if I`m wrong though...

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Sun May 25, 2008 6:47 am
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Or it could mean that it has more than one effect or does different things to certain units or something like that.

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Sun May 25, 2008 6:58 am
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Aspiring Executioner wrote:
Or it could mean that it has more than one effect or does different things to certain units or something like that.


Or it could mean that Dark Alliance hopes that it will be more useful because he does not know what is going to happen to it for certain :D

HUZZAH!


Sun May 25, 2008 7:21 am
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"Amazing"? Wow... my experience with the Couldron has been exactly the opposite. Unless of course you add the suffix "-ly sucky" to the end.

In the games I've played, it's been a huge liability. It's tiny range means that if I want it to have any real effect, I have to engage enemy troops within close proximity of the thing, which severely limits my options with respect to my mobility, and where I can pick and choose my fights. If my opponent *isn't* retarded (and they usually aren't), they simply choose to deploy their troops away from it, and NOT engage in H2H within it's range of influence. For the rediculous points cost, I have never once gotten a return on the investment. I would have been much better off taking another unit. It's just too easily avoided by even a modestly good opponent. And even in situations where a fight within it's range couldn't be avoided, the results were less than spectacular. I think on average it's garnered 1, maybe 2 extra wounds per game it's been involved in for me. Just. Awful.

...and every single one of these issues would be resolved if it were mobile. In which case, a more limited range would make sense. A mobile CoB with a range of influence of 12" would be reasonable, in my estimation.

And given the rumors that you have a CoB join a unit of witch elves, I just can't imagine it being immobile. I mean, I suppose it's possible, but what a waste it would be.

But in the end, unless it's made mobile again, I'm just not sure I can justify ever using it. My army is just too mobile and dependant on freedom of movement to make use of it. (Though I desparately want to find an excuse to use one so I can convert one up! :P)

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Sun May 25, 2008 7:53 am
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Victor Simic wrote:
DA has inside knowledge, and I don`t believe he`d tease us with such a positive comment unless there was SOME truth to it.

Then again, DA IS a Dark Elf...

I`ll have to eat my words if I`m wrong though...



Mr. Anderson wrote:
Aspiring Executioner wrote:
Or it could mean that it has more than one effect or does different things to certain units or something like that.


Or it could mean that Dark Alliance hopes that it will be more useful because he does not know what is going to happen to it for certain :D

HUZZAH!


:lol: :lol: Ifs, buts, maybes eh?

Has DA let the side down before is the question you should answer, to get the answer to your question ... ;)


Sun May 25, 2008 9:22 am
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Agreed on that. I always liked it, but these days, RBT's are just a bit more useful.

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Sun May 25, 2008 11:25 am
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i agree with DA and matras, the cauldron is a great model and i like the rules but we just don't have the option of getting into combat any,more (at least most of the time) and RBT just work wonders!

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Sun May 25, 2008 12:02 pm
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It would be cool if the cauldron could move. Just without the wheels, but with the statue walking and carrying the cauldron :mrgreen: .. That would look cool.

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Sun May 25, 2008 12:23 pm
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The current 24" range of the cauldron is more than plenty to get you in range where you want to unless you're facing full on gunline.

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Sun May 25, 2008 12:45 pm
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Dare I say the actual issue with the cauldron, because everyone likes it but no one takes it, is that spending 200ish points on something that does no damage to your opponent is scary. And there are simply better choices out there. RBTs are argueably the best wer machine in the game. Two extras of them is frightening on the battlefield.


Sun May 25, 2008 3:07 pm
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Weeeell, it IS a good support, so you cannot say that it doesn't do damage. But the problem is that 24" and unmovable is just too unflexible for me - had to find that out the hard way - it is just too expensive for what it does. It is not bad, RBT's are just better. If they did something like removing the working distance at about the same price, we would be talking about an absolute winner - DESPITE the fact that you would basically be giving up a Hag for the rest of the game since it is unlikely she would really see battle.

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Sun May 25, 2008 3:34 pm
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I am not a fan of the cauldron because i dosn't move. With an army that even with mostly infantry by second or thid turn I should be in my opponents kitchen making sandwhiches. A stationary model that isn't killing anything might as well bring 1795 to a 2,000 point game.

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Sun May 25, 2008 3:56 pm
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I'm not a fan of the Cauldron because it costs a LOT and doesn't have direct impact on the enemy.
Give it some kind of effect like Casket of Souls or Anvil of Doom (other immovable "machines") have and I'll be more than happy to field it.


Sun May 25, 2008 4:22 pm
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I see people saying "Khorne" in the earlier posts - did we mean to say, "Khaine"? I be a newb but I didnt think we associated with that particular chaos god or do we?

As for the Frenzy, I know our entire army gets to "re-roll" to wound on the first round of combat - is that the Frenzy they are talking about? Or are we afraid that we will have to constantly charge the closest enemy we see (kind of frenzy).

Is there something I am missing here?


Sun May 25, 2008 5:14 pm
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http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=654023#654023
(found on home page: "More druchii news") for the description everyone has in mind.

It tells, for CoB:
Quote Cauldron of Blood
- it costs around 175/200 points;
- it seems that a new model will be produced;
- it can move as a warmachine;
- Large Target and causes Terror;
- all friendly units within 24" may re-roll failed To Wound rolls;
- it's Indistructible, tough if the Hag and the 2 Witches are killed, it's removed as a casuality;
- may confers +1A on charge (probably it is THIS the real rule about the +1A) to some units: Witch Elves, Executioners, Assassins, maybe Black Guard;
- the Hag Queen and the 2 Witches are Unbreakable and have a 5+ Guard Save;
- Witch Elves units within 12" gains +1 on their Ward Save;
- MAY join a Witch Elves unit, wich will become Unbreakable.
Unquote.

This being said, everything else seems to be speculation until the new book comes.

The only chaos god I know to be associated with DE is Slaanesh. So It was probably Khaine, not Khorne.

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Sun May 25, 2008 5:48 pm
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Khaine is often said to be another incarnation of Khorne, the blood god. In the liber chaotica it is mentioned, but it will always be a mistery. I myself think khaine and Khorne are different gods.

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Sun May 25, 2008 6:23 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard
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Kwi wrote:
I see people saying "Khorne" in the earlier posts - did we mean to say, "Khaine"? I be a newb but I didnt think we associated with that particular chaos god or do we?

As for the Frenzy, I know our entire army gets to "re-roll" to wound on the first round of combat - is that the Frenzy they are talking about? Or are we afraid that we will have to constantly charge the closest enemy we see (kind of frenzy).

Is there something I am missing here?


The guy who wrote it meant that we were becoming bloodfrenzied and crazy like Khorne, and less like real druchiis.

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Sun May 25, 2008 6:30 pm
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Now a moving cauldron is something I would include. I would wait for the new model if there is one coming out considering the whole mooving thing willpobly mean wheels.

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Sun May 25, 2008 6:40 pm
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They could use the previous sculpt of the Cauldron. In my opinion it was better anyway. The Hag on that one RAWKED!


Sun May 25, 2008 7:00 pm
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MonkeyLord wrote:
]
In the games I've played, it's been a huge liability. It's tiny range means that if I want it to have any real effect, I have to engage enemy troops within close proximity of the thing, which severely limits my options with respect to my mobility, and where I can pick and choose my fights. If my opponent *isn't* retarded (and they usually aren't), they simply choose to deploy their troops away from it, and NOT engage in H2H within it's range of influence.

I never understand the argument of 'tiny range.'
24" is 2/3 of the board on a 4x6 table, and most of that two thirds is the opponents deployment zone. If your opponent wants to stay out of the range of the cauldron and deploy only in the corners of their deployment and never move more then 8" or so away from their zone, the thing is still worth 205 points, for such amazing limitations your putting on your opponents mobility.

The vast majority of my fights are within the RFZ in each and every game, the only time its range is not suitable is against a full gun-line as dalamar mentioned.

If your opponents really just deploy in only 1/3 of their deployment zone, and never move forward, I'm not really sure how I would against such a castrated opponent anyway.
Quote:
I think on average it's garnered 1, maybe 2 extra wounds per game it's been involved in for me. Just. Awful.

Can't judge something on bad dice rolling need to look at the averages.
On average it gives DR and Corsairs, an extra wound, and Witches 2.
It can turn massively help against really bad rolls, and generally nets me around 10 CR in each game, for a measly 200 points. Cheaper then 10 warbanners, which is otherwise the most efficient way to get reliable CR.

It even averages 1 more wound for CoK's against T3 opponents.


Quote:
...and every single one of these issues would be resolved if it were mobile. In which case, a more limited range would make sense. A mobile CoB with a range of influence of 12" would be reasonable, in my estimation.

wow, what a waste it would be if it was mobile and 12", it would effect so fewer units at one point in time that it would need to cost a significant amount less, also due to shortened range it would need to move forward and make itself more vulnerable in doing so. Are you sure you have much experience with the CoB?
Your arguments suggest you don't.


Mon May 26, 2008 2:50 am
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What the cauldron needs is a direct damage ability of some kind and then I'm sure people will field it. The Anvil of Cheese, the Pope-mobile, the rat-bell, and the Casket of Souls are all viable because you can quantify them as "it killed 'X' models this game". While the CoB is good, it's hard to quantify and that helps to make it unappealing. Give it a bound spell. Give it power dice. Give it dispel dice. Give it something! All the other war machines I listed are really great. I'm thrilled to pay 200 points for it so long as it does something really good. It's main use for me, re-rolling my chariot impact hits, has just been nerfed because chariots are no longer 2-for-1. I'm sure those clever monkies at GW will come up with something fabulous because they actually do want us to buy a new model, right?


Mon May 26, 2008 4:13 am
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Quote:
What the cauldron needs is a direct damage ability of some kind and then I'm sure people will field it.
Fair point.

Most of the `to use or not to use` discussions concerning taking the CoB over the years, centre on two things. 1. - Army selection/Unit breakdown, and 2. - Lack of Direct Damage potential.

Certainly Army selection is crucial. Not much point taking a defensively themed Army full of missile Weapons that don`t benefit from the re-roll to wound in CC with the CoB. An Assault themed Army with plenty of Witch Elves, COC`s, COK`s, Executioners (gotta love re-rolls to wound with Killing Blow), and even Dark Riders (who become a serious prospect in CC with the CoB supporting), seems to be the way to go. Not alot of debate on this one.

The main point of contention is the lack of the CoB dealing `Direct Damage`. Some players can`t justify taking a 205 point Rare choice that `only` confers a re-roll to wound, and doesn`t actually dish any damage itself. This is true enough, but I also like the fact that Witches get some substantial bonus` from being within the RFZ.

Fielding a Witch Elf themed Army with a couple of units of WE`s, supported by Dark Riders (to set things up and Flank Charge), a unit of Executioners, and a couple of COC`s, can be devastating. I`m not sure what Dice Gods Monkeylord has offended, but I`ve found the exact OPPOSITE to his experience as far as extra wounds inflicted when my CoB goes to war. And this is the CURRENT CoB !

I would dearly love to have the CoB go back to the `Chariot` days of the 5th Ed. Army Book. This meant that even if the CoB let you down (or your Dice Rolls let the Cauldron down...), it could still hit hard and get some points back. But I still think the `static` version is eminently usable.

I try to field the CoB as far forward as possible, preferably in Very Difficult Terrain, and seek to engage the enemy as soon as possible. In a Tournament a few years back, I placed my CoB in a wood near the centre/forward section of my deployment zone. As the battle raged around this wood, my opponent finally decided to go for some `easy` VP`s and sought out the CoB. When his Unit of Orcs encountered the CoB (two turns of Difficult Terrain later), he was faced with three Guardians with 10 Poisoned Attacks between them. Sure, he won the Combat in the end, and got 205 VP`s. The thing was, that I reduced his unit to under half (250 point unit of Orc Boys), so that was 125 VP`s, AS WELL AS the CoB `s re-rolls to wound helping me win another two Combats within the RFZ which netted me a further 578 VP`s (one unit of Boys, and one unit of Big `Uns with Big Boss).

So, the net result was 498 VP`s to me after deducting the 205 my opponent got for the CoB. Well worth the 205 investment IMO.

I know circumstances can lead to any number of different scenarios when using an item like the CoB, but I`m just illustrating a situation where the CoB worked FOR me as it is.

If GW improve on this, I`ll be well pleased.

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Mon May 26, 2008 8:07 am
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