MonkeyLord wrote:Yes, but that’s still 200 VPs I’m giving my opponent. VPs that could have been invested in a more effective unit.
I don't get it...still 200 vps? when you could be giving up 400 to shooting instead? how is this worse?
I’m sorry, what? You misunderstand: I said the unit I was attacking with witch elves.
I suppose i did, you said they already sustained 6 wounds, I could not figure out ho that was relevant unless you were charged and the wounds were done that round.
Since I don’t field my DRs in my center, it wouldn’t affect my DRs anyway, unless I put my CoB on a flank. In which case, half of its range of effect become unusable.
I put one of my 4 units of DRs in the middle, but thats not the point.
24" does not mean you need to deploy anything in the middle for it to be useful, as 24" covers most of the playing field.
Unless those units are crossbowmen, bowmen, handgunners, cannons, jezzails, high toughness troops that could care less whether or not you re-roll your to-wound rolls, etc, etc, so on and so forth.
Yes, we already covered that it does not do well against a gunline. and High toughness troops is where it helps the most.
While I could field DRs in this capacity, I would have to field them in large enough numbers to actually arrive at their destination AND be numerous enough to actually do significant damage. And I don’t use DRs in this fashion anyway. I use them to harry enemy troops, advance up the flanks, etc. I generally haven’t had much luck running DRs up the middle. But that’s entirely a circumstantial thing, dependent on my own tactics, the tactics of my regular opponents, etc
Again, 24" is a large area and does not require my DR to be the middle of the field to be useful, anytime the DR charge into a flank or come to support a unit, they are very likely to be within the 24" of the cauldron.
LOL, well, incase you weren’t aware, this game, being based on dice, will achieve results that fly in the face of mathhammer.
very aware, and yet the best way to judge a unit is based off of the average damage, support, or protection it will give. Not based off of your odd ball bad dice luck scenarios.
As I said, in about a dozen games, I’ve had the cauldron die an immediate and ignoble death right in about 4, I think, and in only two of those did it die to shooting.
Like this one.
It only takes 3 wounds. Don’t get me wrong, I was ticked. But it *does* happen.
Yes just very very infrequently. About as frequently as the unit getting shot at 75 times and not taking any wounds.
It’s only the best force multiplier when the combat takes place within that 24” realm of unfluence, and it survives that long.
Which is the large large majority.
And I would hardly call the RBTs the worst waramachines in the game. In every single game I’ve played, 2 of them did more damage to the enemy than the Couldron did.
Look at the numbers, they are simply the worst warmachine in the game.
Listen, I’m not trying to convince anyone to not use the Couldron. I’m simply conveying my experience with it, which has been, with little exception, very lackluster.
All then experiences you have mentioned here have been in the bottom one or two standard deviations from the norm.
And I very clearly stated that beyond the roll of the dice, there were several factors involved that mitigated those advantages offered by the CoB. And whether we like it or not, this game is based entirely on luck. If we wanted the dice to convey a precise result, then we wouldn’t use them at all. We’d simply say “This unit inflicts 3 wounds on the charge. Your armor save negates 1 of them.”
Dice are less of a random factor then you imply when often rolling hundreds of them in a game.
So in approx. 1/6 of my games with it, the Couldron died to shooting by turn 2. Can anyone here honestly say that is so hard to believe? Especially since in both those games, those deaths were to Elves and Dwarves?...And in *all* of my games, the Couldron’s re-rolls did not really change the course of a single combat. Is *that* really so difficult to believe?
No, I believe such things do happen, and that they happened to you. That does not change that your dice luck or your opponents was well above average, and implying the cauldron is bad due to your bad dice luck is irresponsible when trying to give advice.
I typically try to setup the battle in such a way that my charges break enemy units on the first turn of the combat anyway. In which case, an additional re-rolled wound didn’t really change the outcome. And in most cases that I remembered, any units of mine that were charged were broken, regardless of having inflicted an extra wound or two.
The cauldron allows MORE of the circumstances where your likely to break your opponent on the first round, and makes those circumstances where your likely to win but not break much more likely to do so.
I simply can’t come in here and state that my observations were any different. They are what they are: My experiences with the cauldron.
But that simply is not useful, without a larger pool of data then 12 games, a variety in army lists and tactics, and the math and reasoning to back up your arguments.
The argument of 'my cauldron gets shot to death in every game' is not only refuted to be the average in statistics it is also fairly poor tactics.
But I couldn't achieve posative results with the couldron with the style of list I prefer to play.
It seems then more useful information would be giving an idea of what your army is and WHY it does not work will in your army.
My typical list is some variant of the below:
1 x 5 CoKs + General on CoK + BSB w/ Hydra Banner
1 x Sorc (lvl 2) on foot
1 x 15-20 Witch Elves
1 or 2 CO Chariots
2 x 10 Repeater XBowmen
1 x 7 Harpies
2 x Repeater Bolt Throwers
1 x 7 DRs
1 x 7 Shades
Agreed, a very poor list for the cauldron, your CoK are only going to get 1-2 charges per game and they don't need it to win.
20 Witches is a waste of points, and being that they are your only infantry threat are likely to be destroyed before every entering combat, or because you have little to protect them from their own frenzy they are likely to be drawn into poor combats.
Your army is mostly shooty, with one decent CC unit in the CoK's.
Of course you would not use a cauldron in such a list.
I supposed I did not need to explain that the cauldron is only useful in lists that expect to win through CC, and plan on bringing lost of those units, maybe I do.
Should also stipulate that it looses a lot of its effectivness if you play on a 8' board rather then 4 or 6, where it goes from covering 90-60% of the board down to >50
So just out of curisoty, Zeth, what does your list with the CoB look like, and how do you play it?
Highborn, on CoC, with HA, SDC, DoDP, HsoD
BM, on Manticore, LA, Shield, Lance, SoG
3x5 DR w/ RxB Music
5 DR w/ Music
2x20 Corsairs w/ standard champ
2x10 Witches w/ hag manbane
5 CoK w/ standard champ warbanner
CoB.
)
Particularly when fielding Witches and Corsairs (gotta love 2 or 3 Attacks per model).