Word from someone with the new book

[Dark Alliance]

like a 1+ AS armor that he can use with his halberd?

or maybe the most bent, broken and twisted anti magic item in the game...

Now THERE"S a teaser!

[Hyetemplar]

it also makes you infinately more likely to miscast, and im not sure on your math for 1 die gain

[Hyetemplar]

like a 1+ AS armor that he can use with his halberd?

or maybe the most bent, broken and twisted anti magic item in the game...

Now THERE"S a teaser!

i really hate you, ive done maybe 30 min of work in the past 4 hours

it cant be that bent broken and twisted if its only 25 points, and wont it be a waste to put it on a 1 wound crap armor carrier? or maybe its one time use item.

better than 50 points i end your magic phase?
better than 55 points reroll failed dispell attempts?

[Getwisteerd]

it also makes you infinately more likely to miscast, and im not sure on your math for 1 die gain

Average result of D3+1 is 3, divide by two because you have 50% chance to cast it and substract 1 for de die you used.

For two dice, average roll is the same, you fail 1/12 of the time (three out of 36 possibilities, these being 1-1 1-2 and 2-1) so divide by (12/11) and substract two for the dice you used.

I could be wrong of course

EDIT: maybe the magic-defence item gives enemy casters -1 to cast?

[Izirath]

Yes I am so looking forward to fielding my blackguards. As I have 18 of the models. Including full command.

[Hyetemplar]

hold on, im confused.

you cast PoD once with 2 PD and get D3+1 back, so you use 2 die to get avg of 3 back

you cast PoD twice with one die, one fails and one goes off on avg giving you avg of 3 die back

both cases you use 2 die to get 3 die, only real difference is the variance and standard deviation. and one method has a chance to miscast or IF.

[Hyetemplar]

Yes I am so looking forward to fielding my blackguards. As I have 18 of the models. Including full command.

i have enough to play with malekith, kouran, 6 units of DR and the rest black guard at 4,000 points

[Getwisteerd]

You're calculating PD gain per power die, I'm calculating PD gain per casting

[Izirath]

@hyeteamplar

Oh my god! 2,600 points of Black guards or such.. That's many units. Let's guess, your fluff is mainly about the Black guards?

[Hyetemplar]

You're calculating PD gain per power die, I'm calculating PD gain per casting

sorry i am an accountant, i only care about getting out more than the sum of what i put in while minimizing risk

[Hyetemplar]

@hyeteamplar

Oh my god! 2,600 points of Black guards or such.. That's many units. Let's guess, your fluff is mainly about the Black guards?

no i wasnt kidding when i said i have over 25,000 points of druchii, i cried when i calculated it because that means my total points for all fanatasy armies would be around 50,000 and realized that even if i gave all my friends a 2,000 point army i would still have more models than i have time to paint and no where near the amount of friends.

[Izirath]

Ahaha you could ship some over here or deal em out free? How much is unpacked and non painted?

[Archdukechocula]

Wait a minute. It just occured to me. Corsairs force a unit to roll 3d6 and take the lowest two dice when rolling for fleeing from a combat. Does that inculde units with movement 7" and greater? I can't imagine that is the case, but if it is...

[Izirath]

Of course it does. At least I hope so. That would make sense to me. But maybe it just affects units that have lower MS than the Corsair unit? That would be quite lame.

[Agelmar]

One thing I am wondering about is the temple of khaine. We have heard alot of stuff about magic items but little to nothing on the temple of khaine powers. Are they mostly just the same, or is there some new stuff as well? Is it still as restrictive as before or can more units partake of this equipment?

One thing that bothered me about the dark elf book was we had alot of stuff in the temple of khaine, but because there was nothing really to use it on other then the witch elf champion almost none of it was ever really used much. It would be nice if that section of the book got alot more use this time around, though the witch elf character may help address that.

[Herb]

or maybe the most bent, broken and twisted anti magic item in the game...

...the infamous Ring of Hotek

[Archdukechocula]

Of course it does. At least I hope so. That would make sense to me. But maybe it just affects units that have lower MS than the Corsair unit? That would be quite lame.

I don't think that it is that obvious at all. That would be a very powerful ability. Being able to have a high certainty of catching and killing cavalry when you win a combat is huge. That would make small units of corsairs an incredible asset, especially since we have to pursue. It would really take the edge off of hatred if we have a unit that gives us a really good chance of destroying units in pursuit. Plus, it just further enhances the unit's role as a flank protector. Fast cavalry would really have to think hard about charging a unit with hatred, repeater pistols, and a special pursuit rule that forces them to flee on the worst 2 dice of 3d6. Even a flank charge presents a serious risk at that point.

This would also make corsairs the ultimate flanking unit. The rule forces the enemy unit to use the lowest dice for their flee result. THat means all your units in combat are benefiting from the rule. One of them are pretty much guaranteed to roll higher than the enemy unit.

[Calisson]

Sorry, I posted twice a post. See below.

[Matras]

Lol! Yes, that would certainly get that particular prize! I remember considering it the first time I read least edition's DE book...

[Calisson]

Reading this thread, I found many incomplete maths about the new Power of Darkness "O level" spell, leading to hasty conclusions.

Lets examine how many die you gained after 36 PoD casts, casting 1 or 2 die.

Cast................1 dice.....2 die
miscast.............0/36......1/36 (actually loosing ALL your remaining die... or worse...)
2 die lost...........0/36......3/36 (including the miscast)
1 dice lost........18/36......0/36
no change.........0/36.....11/36
1 dice gained.....6/36.....11/36
2 die gained......6/36......11/36
3 die gained......6/36........0/36

Average gain.+18/36.....+27/36 (underevaluating the miscast as a loss of 2, but it happens rarely)
Average gain....+1/2........+3/4 . . .[EDITED]

The average gain is real but not fantastic.
The average dice value being 3.5, by casting 2 die, you gain 2.6 to your spell, and only if you selected Dark Lore.. . .[EDITED]
It was not that advantageous to have +1 to cast any spell including Shadow or Death.
And we gain some fluff: more risk and more power than ordinary magic, that's Dark Magic! . . .[EDITED]

My conclusion:
Cast 1 dice only if you don't care to loose one dice half of the time and only if you could make good use of 3 additional die (if not spent... ouch!, and if all spent on 1 spell, chance of miscast rises).

Cast 2 die if you just would apreciate to have 1 more dice (who wouldn't?), and you can handle +/-1 dice, knowing that the risk of miscast is low, even a simple failure happens once every other game.


In summary,

- If you have enough die, don't cast PoD. It is a prudent attitude when you are winning: no miscast, not too-many-die-that-will-burn-your-fingers-if-you-dont-use-them-and-will-miscast-if-you-do.
- if your sorc is level 1, don't PoD either.

- If you just would be happy with 1 more dice, cast PoD with 2 die and cross your fingers. Miscast seldom happens, but once in a while...
- I would expect all level 2 sorc to do it most of the time.

- If you are on the loosing slope, cast 1 die with all your sorc, most of the time you will loose a little bit more but then, a loss is a loss, but 1/3 of the time you will gain 2 or even 3 die that will help you reverse the situation.
- I would expect level 4 sorc to cast PoD with 1 dice: they cannot afford a miscast at the beginning of the magic phase and they could have a good use of many extra die with their many spells, still maintaining a low risk of miscast.

[Voodoomaster]

like a 1+ AS armor that he can use with his halberd?

or maybe the most bent, broken and twisted anti magic item in the game...

Now THERE"S a teaser!

its nasty isn't it, especially in the format of army that i appear to be somewhat infamous for.

[Hyetemplar]

Calisson

thanks for the stats.

here is my main arguement for tossing only one die on PoD, and yes its because of miscasts.

PoD spell will make us cast almost double the amount of spells we currently cast (including itself);
every magic phase i presume all sorcs will cast PoD and then depending on the result, one or two more spells. that effectively doubles their casting and thus doubles their comparative chance to miscast vs now. if you use 3 mages, even at level 2, you are casting minimum 7 spells a phase (one PoD each and one other spell each plus a spell for 2 army die).
even if they only cast 6 spells a turn (and must use 2 die per spell to get max effect due to loosing +1 cast) that is 36 spells a game and thus miscast

where as now we cast (with 3 lvl 2s) 3/4 spells a turn
the number of offensive spells is the same in both models execpt now we hard harder to dispel and have less chance to miscast

[Brentrb]

Calisson

thanks for the stats.

here is my main arguement for tossing only one die on PoD, and yes its because of miscasts.

PoD spell will make us cast almost double the amount of spells we currently cast (including itself);
every magic phase i presume all sorcs will cast PoD and then depending on the result, one or two more spells. that effectively doubles their casting and thus doubles their comparative chance to miscast vs now. if you use 3 mages, even at level 2, you are casting minimum 7 spells a phase (one PoD each and one other spell each plus a spell for 2 army die).
even if they only cast 6 spells a turn (and must use 2 die per spell to get max effect due to loosing +1 cast) that is 36 spells a game and thus miscast

where as now we cast (with 3 lvl 2s) 3/4 spells a turn
the number of offensive spells is the same in both models execpt now we hard harder to dispel and have less chance to miscast

7 spells a turn... I wish. Not likely when PoD keeps getting dispelled. You're going to have to pull from your general pool to supplement your wizards for a chance to get one spell off after PoD gets dispelled and they have 1 dice left. Or none of they cast it on two dice... I still think that casting PoD on 1 dice is a bad idea. It may have a slightly better average of return, but once you consider the fact that half the time you fail and that's one free power dice that the dispeller doesn't have to worry about matching.

[Dark Alliance]

A long time ago Keledron wrote a very good article about the strategy behind casting spells. The core principle was to ensure that any spell casting attempt is successful.

Don't throw anything less than the number of dice required to deliver an average result for casting. The only real loser in that scenario if you do, is you.

Make sure the cast succeeds because you are then FORCING your opponent to react.

[Dark Alliance]

like a 1+ AS armor that he can use with his halberd?

or maybe the most bent, broken and twisted anti magic item in the game...

Now THERE"S a teaser!

i really hate you, ive done maybe 30 min of work in the past 4 hours

it cant be that bent broken and twisted if its only 25 points, and wont it be a waste to put it on a 1 wound crap armor carrier? or maybe its one time use item.

better than 50 points i end your magic phase? Absolutely
better than 55 points reroll failed dispell attempts?

Absolutely and then some!