Rumor Discussion Thread

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Dullmentalracket
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Post by Dullmentalracket »

im leaning towards ...

7 shades
12-18 witches
15 BG
5 COK's

but if i take a cauldron itll probably by 15 more witches instead of the BG
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Deadlydeception
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Post by Deadlydeception »

AHHHHG!! so many special choices that all look so good.

At the moment, I want:
-5ish cold one knights
-15-25 black guard
-maybe some executioners, maybe
-shades? There role has changed so much for me that it might be harpies instead
-a chariot if no shades
-who knows, maybe I'll have to go up to 3000 points so I can get some witches too.
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Mordru
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Post by Mordru »

THe good news for you is that Harpies are moving to core!
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Dggrj
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Post by Dggrj »

Yah core harpies are amazing - what's the point value on them again? I don't even think I care - every unit of witches will be screened by harpies, for shooting and frenzy purposes. Oh and warmachines will be hunted by them. And I'll use them for crossfire...

I'm gonna have to buy a lot of harpies :(
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Post by Decker_cky »

I think harpies were 11 pts, but I don't think they'll make my list. I don't really like the models, and I cover most of those duties with 2 units of DRa and 2 unit of shades. Still...if I have the points free, I might try for a few units of 5 to use in various roles.
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Post by Dggrj »

but the harpies are skirmishing (for -1 to shoot at) fliers who don't cause panic! Sure only the last bit is new, but as core? AMAZING. Use them to screen for a bit then use that same unit to go behind for crossfire when you unleash your witches or whatever. I really wish they'd gotten fear on the charge, but being core is more than I'd hoped for, so.. yeah. They're great.
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Post by Izirath »

The character choices will be a pain in the ass. I want to have a Death Hag with CoB, more sorceresses, an assasin, and still have my Dragon lord! No way it's gonna work haha. I'll probably have to skip the Dragon lord sometimes.
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Post by Elven prince »

The character choices will be a pain in the ass.

Agreed. I am playing with their choices for about two days and still haven't got the slightest idea what to pick.

Another thing I will probably try out, is various magical weapons/armor on a unit's champions:

- BG champion with Armor of Darkness; ideal for challenges.
- Executioner champion with sword of battle: three attacks (?) at S4 and killing blow. Perhaps I'll be generous and give him Crimson Death: S6, killing blow.

However all of this depends which items I'll want for my characters.

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Post by Murmandamus »

but perhaps for magic item champons could be wise to give them magic shard for magic resistance.
Zeth wrote:sorc on a highborn is not a good unit option
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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

Venkh wrote:Can anyone who has read the book remember whether the black guard have base s3 or 4?


S4 would be crazy... :shock: ;) :lol:

Nah, can only be S3 (+ halberd). They're rather good already.

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Post by Plasmapuff »

Any more info on the cauldron?
Is it 12" stubborn or 24" for khanite troops (just Execs and witches?)
How far does it move?
How well protected is it?

My biggest concern (not knowing that much about it), is that if you have to keep it 12" behind (instead of hiding it) and advance it, its going to go down to directed hth attacks/shooting (2 T3 wounds, no armour for the hag?). And yes people are going to target the hell out of it for the bonuses it gives and its cost.

Its annoying that non khanite things can't join execs, giving it a big cross in my books as Imo they're one unit which really needs the most support (eg BSB with ASF, cold one to negate fear etc)

Core Harpies will be awesome though. This is one of the single biggest improvements, as unlike core furies we can actually flee, which will make them the BEST diverters going round with the broken "pursuing skirmisher" rules. I'm thinking 3units of these and 2 units of DR should be enough for most armies.

Also (I may be an outsider here), why are COKs suddenly better than Cold one chariots? I think that the chariot despite loosing 2 for 1 is still the better pick depending on the rest of your army composition. +1T, +1 AS +1S (for warriors) and most critically +1 Ld for 3 points? With hatred they'll hit nearly just as hard as knights, are more resistant to damage and are more manevurable, allow more synch charges. Stupidity is still a liability and will bite when you least expect it, so imo the less points invested in stupid hammers the better.

My thoughts anyways :)
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Post by Thanee »

From what I could gather the cauldron only has a Witch Elf Hero as crew now (or does it get the two guardians as well?), who gets a 4+ Ward save (and the hit distribution 1-4: cauldron, 5-6: crew; the cauldron should still be indestructible), basically, plus whatever stuff from the Temple of Khaine you want to give her (though I don't think there is much in terms of protection to be gained that way). Definitely doesn't sound like a whole lot of protection, but still something (effectively a 3+ & 4+ Ward save; still every 6th hit will get through and every 12th S3 hit will cause a Wound); with two guardians it would be fine, but if it's only the Hag, she would go down a bit too easy, I suppose.

It should move 5", just like a regular warmachine.

The range is 24" for the bonus (5+Ward, +1A, KB) or 12" for Stubborn (only Khainites, which should be Witch Elf Hero, Assassin, Witch Elves and Executioners).

As for the Execs, you can have a Witch Elf Hero BSB join them, though that's a bit weird. Also, you can put an Assassin in there for support.

COK autobreak units, that's what makes them good; and they hit ridiculously hard now with S6 Hatred on the charge. COC are also good, though, even a single one if you do not have enough Special slots left might do alright.

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Post by Thanee »

Elven prince wrote:@ To any DE player willing to answer:
I've got an offer to buy some Witch Elves at rather low price (1€/model), so I was just wondering if you believe that the new WE will be worth to have in your army (not exactly a must-have-it-unit but still cost effective)? Frenzy is what troubles me a bit... :?:


For that price? Go for it regardless... :)

They will be fairly cheap and at least going from my experience (with the old list), they will sure be useful; even if they lost a point of WS, the price reduction and Hatred makes them still awesome and able to rip through most standard infantry regiment!

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Plasmapuff
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Post by Plasmapuff »

Thanks Thanee! That leave the cauldron horribly vulnerable (unless the hero gets ASF? but even then) to directed close combat attacks from furies/screamers/gorgers/scorpions/fast cav as unlike other war machines, if we hide it, it won't be within range.

This kinda encourages us to play defensive heavy magic shooty around stubborn blocks. But nothing in new book we know of so far changes the fact that elves can't take attrition.

Guess we'll have to wait for the full details then hey? I hope theres something I'm missing.

As for COKs, I love the models but at the end of the day they're still only T3 elves and there's too much stuff out there which deals with armour (even the -1 for S4 is bad when you're T3). Chariots on the other hand are harder to take down. S7 shooting should be easy to deal with, with all those harpies. S7 combat isn't all that common except for heroes, which you can flee from. Plus S7 will wreck COKs anyway... I dunno maybe it comes down to play style. I tend to guard the flanks with auxillary stuff and push with the middle, so chariots work better as they have smaller frontage and can synch charge better (hard to get all the knights into btb sometimes).
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Master of arneim
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Post by Master of arneim »

Executioner champion with sword of battle: three attacks (?) at S4 and killing blow. Perhaps I'll be generous and give him Crimson Death: S6, killing blow.

I don't think that executioner champion can have 25 points of magic items. Weren't only the coks and bg champions able to do this?
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Post by Lakissov »

well, if the deathhag can take magic items and not only ToK upgrades, then you can always give her regeneration (if she can take armour) or the inverse ward save to keep her out of harm's way
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Post by Thanee »

She surely cannot take armor; and she already has a 4+ Ward as cauldron hag. ;)

As for ASF, you can make her a BSB and give her the banner, otherwise she won't have ASF, AFAIK.

And you can shield her against most attackers (other than large flyers), since she doesn't need LoS or anything; Harpies as missile shield, for example.

I really don't think our list encourages defensive play, though. ;)
It's possible, esp. with Stubborn, but Khainites are simply not defensive units. BG is better suited in that role, and then you don't even need a cauldron.

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Post by Voodoomaster »

Lakissov wrote:well, if the deathhag can take magic items and not only ToK upgrades, then you can always give her regeneration (if she can take armour) or the inverse ward save to keep her out of harm's way

she can't
is she is the BSB she can take a magic standard, but nothing else
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Post by Scallat »

izirath wrote:The character choices will be a pain in the ass. I want to have a Death Hag with CoB, more sorceresses, an assasin, and still have my Dragon lord! No way it's gonna work haha. I'll probably have to skip the Dragon lord sometimes.


Remember that assasins don't use hero slots.
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Thanee
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Post by Thanee »

And you don't need to (or should!) play all your characters at once. :lol:

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Post by Blueon462 »

Voodoomaster wrote:
Lakissov wrote:well, if the deathhag can take magic items and not only ToK upgrades, then you can always give her regeneration (if she can take armour) or the inverse ward save to keep her out of harm's way

she can't
is she is the BSB she can take a magic standard, but nothing else


She is allowed 50pts from the temple of khaine and she still has her gaurdians.

My caulrdon is most likely going to advance right behind my black gaurd.
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Rob the dark elf
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Post by Rob the dark elf »

All the new additions we're getting sounds really cool! I may actually start using the new cauldron! Im really excited about the new book.

The only downside is that I'm playing a game tonight but will have to use the current Dark Elves and I don't get to use the new cool ones that we're all talking about :(
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Post by Calisson »

About the question of which specials to choose, many of you answered, revealing yourselves probably as long-time gamers who own already the whole range of minis and look for the most competitive army. My perspective is a more modest one, but may be shared by many.
Although I am playing only non-competitive games aginst my sons, I like to win when possible (father's pride), this is why I apreciate reading the sound advice I find here.

Thinking about the best way to use my special slot, I need to take into account that I already have a DE army, with 4 special slots taken until now by shades, CoC, CoK and harpies. As the new Harpies are going core, I gladfully will get one more special slot to fill up. Which unit should I take?

The general feeling on D.net seems that future shades are becoming fantastic (I dont clearly understand to which extent, but I will think more deeply about it with the new book in hands); CoC stupidity flaw has beed tempered; CoK don't seem to change that much. So I have to keep them all.
As I don't want to become khainite, I will not get the CoB, so BG seems for me a far better choice than execs or WE.

I am still wondering, would it be better to invest in a 10-men unit of BG, or to go for a second unit of shades? (I exclude to buy more CoC or CoK because I wish not to cast more stupidity tests).
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Post by Jamesfazzolari »

The general feeling on D.net seems that future shades are becoming fantastic (I dont clearly understand to which extent, but I will think more deeply about it with the new book in hands);
In a very brief reasoning: Ws5 Bs5, great weapons and hatred. This means they can be as annoying as ever, but can also obliterate fast cavalry, suicide charge to kill mages, take out war machine crew, add some serious flank charging goodness etc...the unit has gone from being good to being incredibly multi purpose, basically amazing at everything bar static CR.

I am still wondering, would it be better to invest in a 10-men unit of BG, or to go for a second unit of shades?
While of course it does depend a lot of your list, a unit of BG adds a lot of options. That said, I have three units of shades and a BG unit in my potential list... ;)
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Post by Monkeylord »

Yeah, having to choose between shades and blackguard now will depend entirely on your playstyle, and how you want your army to work.

I can't say enough about how much I love the new Shades. :) WS5, BS5, Repeater Crossbows, Greatweapons, and Hatred... how do you get any cooler than that?

And to be honest, even though I love the executioner models, I would take shades over them any day of the week.
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