Rumor Discussion Thread

[Maeson]

Can Shades have command too?

[Saithis]

of course not

[Ehakir]

Well, they can have a champion...

[Mordru]

If you want a standard in shades (and I cannot see why you would) you will have to have them joined by a BSB.

[Dggrj]

About the question of which specials to choose, many of you answered, revealing yourselves probably as long-time gamers who own already the whole range of minis and look for the most competitive army. My perspective is a more modest one, but may be shared by many.
Although I am playing only non-competitive games aginst my sons, I like to win when possible (father's pride), this is why I apreciate reading the sound advice I find here.

Thinking about the best way to use my special slot, I need to take into account that I already have a DE army, with 4 special slots taken until now by shades, CoC, CoK and harpies. As the new Harpies are going core, I gladfully will get one more special slot to fill up. Which unit should I take?

The general feeling on D.net seems that future shades are becoming fantastic (I dont clearly understand to which extent, but I will think more deeply about it with the new book in hands); CoC stupidity flaw has beed tempered; CoK don't seem to change that much. So I have to keep them all.
As I don't want to become khainite, I will not get the CoB, so BG seems for me a far better choice than execs or WE.

I am still wondering, would it be better to invest in a 10-men unit of BG, or to go for a second unit of shades? (I exclude to buy more CoC or CoK because I wish not to cast more stupidity tests).
Welcome any help, it will be used to smash down dwarvens, HE, Britonians and Gobbos (or so I wish).

Were you running 2 CoC before, because it looks like that'll take 2 slots now, unless (perhaps) a noble is in one of them. I was really hoping for new chariot models with the new CO's and then I was going to buy a couple, but with that change I'm disheartened and won't. Anyway, 2 CoC's could take up that extra slot.
Without the CoB I think the choice between WE and BG will be based on function, but I agree about ignoring execs without it. Why would you take only 10 BG though? Yes they're much more killy now, but I still feel like they should be fielded large enough to be a tarpit when needed, for a versatile list. Granted if you put the ASF banner in them then they'll be a better tarpit at smaller sizes.

As for the shades, I find the old one's usefulness varied per army, though the new ones hopefully less so. Nonetheless, what do your sons play?

Just my two cents - haven't played with the new stuff yet, of course!

Oh, and awesome sig, by the way!

[Elven prince]

US preview

[Dalakh deathblow]

If you want a standard in shades (and I cannot see why you would) you will have to have them joined by a BSB.

Let's say when your shades managed to get a flank charge on a unit of Chosen Knights, a +2SCR (1 for BSB 1 for War Banner) might prove handy

[Rkhatzar]

PS: there are many spelling erros, i'm writing by a cell phone, and it's exreamly hard (for me) to drop right buttons, a specially in such long text.

Sorry, but i've been reading all this crap, whing, cursing, peuple say Gav is great but Allesio, and didn't remember who hade made 6ed! Many had writen, that Exes are bad, and all this bubling on list, gating acited with RHT and so. I'm realy geting sick of it.

ye 25 pts banner limit is crap, but, even if there are 2 same units, but one is better, they're not same !!! Unit wich is weaker, by the first glance, can suit better in certain lsits, and playing style.
Geting back to comments, on and on, over abut 100, pages, some guys are comlayning, it's disgusting. I'm from Poland, here every one is playing math/cheesy games, with no marcy, and still I don't cry like a baby, general should ( and it's quite fun) to play with list not pre constructed, but geting own brain, to finde right tactics, during game, and when you destroy oponent it's even greater triumph. As compering 6ed. Stats was very upseting, and can one bedome angry, now, with all flaws as one unit-working calludron, we have list wich can be played any style, any army, can be taken, better on some, weaker on others but comperable. Now you can not to tak DR, and play. It's importent (variety) against cold-math-viciosu oponents, as this games can indicate every unballance and no-brainers in list itself, as now ther is no.
But on this threed, i see 6 players, taking same lists, many complaining on and on...

about executioners they are still ouer greatest inaftery units..why? Becouse for T3 we gave Wiches, warriors, rxb, black guards, and so, for T7 , 6, or SV1+ T4 we have only them in infantry, eventually hydras or haracters, they can tak off characters with KB and are as good as they ware in 6, and even better with those Blood Knights for 56pts each.
And it is notmal that inafterry rarlly charge cavallery, that's why general have to think, and know they troops, they're not (in my opinion) to break those knights, theyr there to kill some of them, and make points, 12 to 56, and with calludron and hatred it's possible, ellits... Banner drom is a pain, and necessewry frenzy bsb, but no disaster.

sorry for hard words, but as i'm reding all that whining, i can't stand spiting on my favorite army, as i's not theyr foult, but lowlynes/complex of thone who wanted army to be fitting theyr stille of play, and only theyr, limited to it as any options and diversity is poitles, mega powered and so.

but yes i can say there are flawss, in for exemple empire racket crap luncher, our 25 limit banner and some magic things, but you don't have to write six or more, mails about your disapointment, like some guys here.

i would like for warhammer to be more strategic, or grand tactical with cavalery manovers on deep flanks, but it's not resone to force other players fot it.

remember dark elf is proud, and should not sey i'm weak, but if discovered any weaknes, burn it with iron from him self, and fink how burn in on others.Sorry, but i've been reading all this crap, whing, cursing, peuple say Gav is great but Allesio, and didn't remember who hade made 6ed! Many had writen, that Exes are bad, and all this bubling on list, gating acited with RHT and so. I'm realy geting sick of it.

ye 25 pts banner limit is crap, but, even if there are 2 same units, but one is better, they're not same !!! Unit wich is weaker, by the first glance, can suit better in certain lsits, and playing style.
Geting back to comments, on and on, over abut 100, pages, some guys are comlayning, it's disgusting. I'm from Poland, here every one is playing math/cheesy games, with no marcy, and still I don't cry like a baby, general should ( and it's quite fun) to play with list not pre constructed, but geting own brain, to finde right tactics, during game, and when you destroy oponent it's even greater triumph. As compering 6ed. Stats was very upseting, and can one bedome angry, now, with all flaws as one unit-working calludron, we have list wich can be played any style, any army, can be taken, better on some, weaker on others but comperable. Now you can not to tak DR, and play. It's importent (variety) against cold-math-viciosu oponents, as this games can indicate every unballance and no-brainers in list itself, as now ther is no.
But on this threed, i see 6 players, taking same lists, many complaining on and on...

about executioners they are still ouer greatest inaftery units..why? Becouse for T3 we gave Wiches, warriors, rxb, black guards, and so, for T7 , 6, or SV1+ T4 we have only them in infantry, eventually hydras or haracters, they can tak off characters with KB and are as good as they ware in 6, and even better with those Blood Knights for 56pts each.
And it is notmal that inafterry rarlly charge cavallery, that's why general have to think, and know they troops, they're not (in my opinion) to break those knights, theyr there to kill some of them, and make points, 12 to 56, and with calludron and hatred it's possible, ellits... Banner drom is a pain, and necessewry frenzy bsb, but no disaster.

sorry for hard words, but as i'm reding all that whining, i can't stand spiting on my favorite army, as i's not theyr foult, but lowlynes/complex of thone who wanted army to be fitting theyr stille of play, and only theyr, limited to it as any options and diversity is poitles, mega powered and so.

but yes i can say there are flawss, in for exemple empire racket crap luncher, our 25 limit banner and some magic things, but you don't have to write six or more, mails about your disapointment, like some guys here.

i would like for warhammer to be more strategic, or grand tactical with cavalery manovers on deep flanks, but it's not resone to force other players fot it.

remember dark elf is proud, and should not sey i'm weak, but if discovered any weaknes, burn it with iron from him self, and fink how burn in on others.

[Xerasi]

Lol never seen that before... copypaste mistake from a cellphone

[Thanee]

She ... still has her gaurdians.

That's good to know. Makes the cauldron a lot more stable.

Bye
Thanee

[Mordru]

If you want a standard in shades (and I cannot see why you would) you will have to have them joined by a BSB.

Let's say when your shades managed to get a flank charge on a unit of Chosen Knights, a +2SCR (1 for BSB 1 for War Banner) might prove handy

You better get them in combat as quick as you can before your opponent has a chance to kill a few in either magic or shooting phases and force panic tests.

[Decker_cky]

I think the standard in shades question might have been motivated by the fact that manflayers, who seemingly are the reason they get great weapons, have command models. So with models dictating rules, the question was a legitimate one.

And for BSB in shades, they have to be US1 on foot to join skirmishers, so no mounted characters can.

Another question: Is there still an item to provide miscast protection on a sorceress? Could be a nice alternative to the dagger sorceress, allowing my to take a sorceress outside of a spearmen unit (where they're incredibly vulnerable).

[Monkeylord]

Yeah, with shades suddenly becoming more fighty, it isn't beyond reason to guess that they might get an options for a standard bearer. I wouldn't bet any money on it, but it's possible.

(though I'm not really sure that would be such a good idea, all things considered. While they will be awesome, I will be pleasantly surprised when the unit survives a battle...)

As for Rkhatzar, I admire his spirit. But in the end, it is unfortunate that math disagrees with him with respect to executioners.

[Jamesfazzolari]

They dont have options for a standard.

Ill definitely be adding a BSB to mine though, replete with the ASF banner, GW, HA, SDC, RxB and shield. The unit will fire a lot of shots, and can throw out a huge amount of damage.

They arent vulnerable to magic (null talismans or ring of hotek, DElves have plenty of DD) or shooting really (DElves hardly struggle to curb enemy shooting with core DR and Harpies, other shades and chill wind!), and only knights worry them in combat.

They'll play a lot like ward dancers - except with some shooting an obviously a little less combat ability. Nonetheless, 20+ Bs5 RxB shots a turn + AP, as well as 10+ ASF hatred Ws5 great weapon attacks is a rather nasty thing to come against.

[Calisson]

@dggrj - thanks for the answers. Clarifications below:

"2 CoC"?
- No, only 1. It takes up a single special slot, or possibly none at all if a Master can have it as special-free mount (still unsure). I considered it a good idea to take a CoC for a noble, hence providing a better Ld to overcome stupidity (not useful anymore) and resulting in excellent save for the Noble (nice in challenges! Still valid). But I measured since how slow it is, which I dislike. If finally it consumes no special slot, a Master on CoC is still probably worth considering for my general (when playing <1999pts), but I have to compare it to a cheaper noble on dark steed.

"Why would I take only 10 BG though?"
- I thought it was the way MSU/MSE worked. I intend to complement my specials with corsairs (with their new hero, of course), harpies, DR, XBmen (all in 2 or 3 units of minimum size) and a single big unit of lancers for SCR and/or shelter for the sorceresses. Not that I would necessarily field all of them together, but I got already most of these minis, only a few corsairs are missing but I HAVE to buy some and try the double-rhb. As rare, I got the hydra and 2 fluffy RXB.
With these, I play as MSU as possible, with a distinctive corsair fluff.
In such army, BG is less in the fluff than one more shade unit, but probably will bring me a much needed hard-hitting resilient unit.

- Sorry, I am not a native English speaker, what does "tarpit" mean? I saw that word in a few posts, but not in my dictionary.

"what do my sons play?"
- they have HE, Dwarves (shooty), Gobbos (shooty and, er…, Gorky) and Bretonnians. Some of their friends come home and play Empire (shooty/magic/cavalry) and Lizardmen (skinks). They are good at playing their armies and too often beat the villain DE. I really look forward to the new DE book in order to take revenge! Universal hatred? Yeah, and fearsome as well!

[Mordru]

The new shades are great and I will be fielding at least one unit and probably teo units in most games but they are still T3 with no decent saves. I hate to see people's justifiable enthusiam get the best of their judgement. If you don't scout with them you will lose several of their advantages one of which will be cover. An on foot T3 BSB with a magic banner is just asking to have everything the enemy has targeted at him and his small unit.

Shades are going to make very good mage body guards and serve many other exciting roles in the army besides.

Shades can do everything we need them to do and do it well without gambling an on foot BSB in the process.

[Emperorpenguin]

- Sorry, I am not a native English speaker, what does "tarpit" mean? I saw that word in a few posts, but not in my dictionary.

Tarpit means something you can get stuck in and hard to get out of, so in Warhammer terms a unit you'll be bogged down in combat with for some time

[Dggrj]

@dggrj - thanks for the answers. Clarifications below:

"2 CoC"?
- No, only 1. It takes up a single special slot, or possibly none at all if a Master can have it as special-free mount (still unsure). I considered it a good idea to take a CoC for a noble, hence providing a better Ld to overcome stupidity (not useful anymore) and resulting in excellent save for the Noble (nice in challenges! Still valid).
Actually as of 7th edition (or maybe even challenges in 6th, but not normal CC), I'm pretty sure that there is no AS benefit from a chariot in CC. Can't believe I'm not more sure at the moment, but someone will confirm/deny.

But I measured since how slow it is, which I dislike. If finally it consumes no special slot, a Master on CoC is still probably worth considering for my general (when playing <1999pts), but I have to compare it to a cheaper noble on dark steed.
It is slow for not marching and cannot enter woods, but for its base size and impact hits many opponents fear them, and they do so nicely trimming down HE attacks as impact hits come before ASF even. Just keep it in mind

"Why would I take only 10 BG though?"
- I thought it was the way MSU/MSE worked. I intend to complement my specials with corsairs (with their new hero, of course), harpies, DR, XBmen (all in 2 or 3 units of minimum size) and a single big unit of lancers for SCR and/or shelter for the sorceresses. Not that I would necessarily field all of them together, but I got already most of these minis, only a few corsairs are missing but I HAVE to buy some and try the double-rhb. As rare, I got the hydra and 2 fluffy RXB.
With these, I play as MSU as possible, with a distinctive corsair fluff.
In such army, BG is less in the fluff than one more shade unit, but probably will bring me a much needed hard-hitting resilient unit.
Fair enough - I've not had enough practice with MSU myself, just some.

- Sorry, I am not a native English speaker, what does "tarpit" mean? I saw that word in a few posts, but not in my dictionary.
A tarpit (probably should have said 'tar pit') is a unit which can stick other units and hold them there for a duration of several turns. Because they are stubborn Ld9 and now ItP, there's a good chance that the opponent will have to kill every single model to get their units back (assuming they don't lose and break, of course ).

"what do my sons play?"
- they have HE, Dwarves (shooty), Gobbos (shooty and, er…, Gorky) and Bretonnians. Some of their friends come home and play Empire (shooty/magic/cavalry) and Lizardmen (skinks). They are good at playing their armies and too often beat the villain DE. I really look forward to the new DE book in order to take revenge! Universal hatred? Yeah, and fearsome as well!
Certainly best of luck to you, and I think it will be more feasible now than before. I'm looking forward to trying GW-wielding shades against the Brets, myself. Against the HE of course the only benefit is BS5 as charging with shades is.. well clearly bad.
Dwarves: new shades should be fun since you should always get the charge and now can wound those buggers!
Lizards: I guess AP will negate the skink 6+ scaly skin save and you can try to charge any blocks of sauruses with confidence, so long as its in the flank/rear.

You know as I think about this I realize that yes, new shades will be far better than I though, just a little pricey with GW for my taste, but I'll be using them.

I look forward to hearing how it works out for you, please give battle reports when the time comes!

[Decker_cky]

As for Rkhatzar, I admire his spirit. But in the end, it is unfortunate that math disagrees with him with respect to executioners.

Look at it from an army perspective:

Orcs and Goblins -> Sacrificial units, and T4 4+ save infantry. About balanced between witches and executioners.

Beasts of Chaos -> No armour, Witches are better.

Bretonnia -> Hands down, executioners are better.

Empire -> Most blocks swordsmen or better, so WS4, 4+ infantry. Balanced, but executioners are much better against the knights.

Mortal Chaos -> Average troops are WS4 4+ save, and scales up to T4, 1+ save. Executioners are better.

Daemons -> Witches in general are better because of the lack of real armour, but the killing blow against heralds is worth mentioning for nurgle heralds.

Dark Elves -> Slight advantage for witches, but it is marginal.

Dogs of War -> Armour is a key difference against pikes, so advantage executioners there. Otherwise, too many different combinations to call.

Dwarfs -> Advantage executioners by a longshot.

High Elves -> Advantage high elves. Both are pretty hopeless, the armour and WS of executioners likely makes them slightly better.

Lizardmen -> Combat units tend to be T4 4+ save and better, but low WS, so about equal against all threats.

OK -> Low WS and Armour, so advantage would be witches if they could flee, but with the entire army faster, fleeing is key.

Skaven -> Marginal advantage witches.

Tomb Kings -> KB against king/prince is important, but low WS and fear mean advantage witches. Both units are superior to non-character units though.

VC -> Similar to TK, but with more characters in combat. KB is a key stat. Advantage witches if facing ghoul heavy armies, and executioners if facing an elite VC army. Against skeletons, slight advantage witches.

Wood elves -> Fleeing is key, as is matchup against treemen/kin. Advantage executioners. Advantage Witches if they play the large stubborn character bunker.

It's pretty balanced between witch elves and executioners for matchups, but I stand by them being slightly more important to include for helping out against bad matchups. Light shooting, dark riders, spearmen and harpies are already great against nice squishy targets. Where those units, and witches and to a lesser extent black guard suffer is once you pass T3 4+ saves. Everything beyond that threshold is the prime opponents for executioners. And I'm arguing this ignoring the cauldron, which makes executioners the undisputed best infantry in the army.

Math does not disagree with executioners being one of the better choices. Math disagrees with executioners being a better choice against things with little to no armour, which are generally exactly the types of things you don't need to use elites against.

[Kherdain de'arazin]

Okay, I think I missed something here. Shades can have banners now?

[Silverheimdall]

With a BSB yes.
(:

Oh I just realized, Mengil Manhide's Manflayers do have a Banner - I could use that as an on-foot BSB! It's such a cool looking mini O:

[Decker_cky]

If I could get 5/6 more loose manflayers, I'd change the standard bearer hand to another crossbow, and use him as my second unit champion.

Now...if only GW would make a manflayer blister.

[Mordru]

Anybody planning to run around with a large unit of shades and an on foot BSB with the ASF (or any magic banner for that matter) had best make a plan on how to avoid stuff like Screamers (that S5 overfly is going to make a mess) and of course any kind of chariot that does its impact hits before ASF kicks in not to mention knights, spells and shooting.

That was the chief problem with Mengil's boys...that had to take a banner ann that added so much to their costs and to the VP they could give up.

[Sulla]

Anybody planning to run around with a large unit of shades and an on foot BSB with the ASF (or any magic banner for that matter) had best make a plan on how to avoid stuff like Screamers (that S5 overfly is going to make a mess) and of course any kind of chariot that does its impact hits before ASF kicks in not to mention knights, spells and shooting

Lurk in the woods till a combat opportunity arises. Screamers can't touch them (they are also pathetically easy to kill in the new daemon book). Most chariots would dread to charge them there too, but in return, the shades can hurt most chariots.

For knights, there's always fleeing to strand them in the woods.

Magic missiles? Well they hurt just about any DE unit equally. Best defense vs them is to limit enemy LoS with terrain.

(personally, I won't be running and GW shades. s5 just doesn't cut it vs my opponents and I'll most likely be wanting to use the cauldron on something else.)

[Mordru]

Shades are very useful in the new list. My point is putting a BSB in with them robs them of their primary utility which is the ability to scout, evade, shoot, flee, pick select combats to engage in and to be sacrificed at need.

The BSB prevents them from scouting. With the BSB in the unit their ability to flee a charge is compromised. You have to be careful not to get beat and get the BSB killed/broken and thereby surrender all those extra victory points.

Unless you are going to field them in large units magis missiles and shooting hurt shade worse because it takes fewer causualties to cause panic. I am simply saying that sticking a BSB with magic banner in them is vastly different than a mounted BSB in a unit of 15 BG or even 20 spears.

One d6 S4 magic missile can cause a panic test in a unit of 10 shades regularly. I am simply saying its a big, big risk with a lower yield than is merited.