Rumor Discussion Thread

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Rumor Discussion Thread

Post by Loki »

Alright, this thread, is not to necessarily talk about the rumors themselves, but the tactical changes that they will cause us to make. You can argue back and forth about Witch Elves and the Cauldron and whatever else you want. This way, we keep the Rumor Thread a little cleaner, umkay?
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Post by Dreadlord taylindril »

As I tried to say earlier.

I heard from my local GW manager that:

The Cauldron of Blood is not mobile.
Witch Elves, are keeping, frenzy and poison attacks.
Executioners, have two attacks and killing blow.
Black Guard, have two attacks and re-roll wounds.
Dark Riders are staying a core choice.
War Hydra, does have regeneration.

He is reliable. Take it as you will.
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Post by Matras »

The biggest change is simply going to be that we will see a huge variety of lists, therefore I think it is difficult to make any assumptions. Heck, you could even play defensively by using a highly mobile approach with the new book.
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Post by Cougar_roger »

I'm curious to see what this does to MSU's. Do the new rules enhance them or will people want to go big blocks (15+) of infantry supported by small hammer units.
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Post by Master of arneim »

I'm afraid that the black guard will not be stubborn. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've a bad feeling about it. 13 points for double rerollable attacks and stubborn ad Ld 9 is pure cheese, but I'd also pay more to keep this combo. I'm painting my last 13 guards, other 10 are already ok.
I don't know if the various rumorer do not speak about stubborn because this ability is obvious (like fight in 3 ranks of He pikes... nobody said that, but everybody told about asf, but the 3 ranks were clear) or because there is no track in the armybook. Bad news also the stubborness given by the cauldron... It would be quite difficult seeing an entire army stubborn and flying, but if there are Vc there could be anything!
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Post by Handmaiden »

I'm afraid that the black guard will not be stubborn. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've a bad feeling about it. 13 points for double rerollable attacks and stubborn ad Ld 9 is pure cheese,


You know this wouldnt be much cheesier than what White Lions currently are
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Post by Rork »

dreadlord taylindril wrote:The Cauldron of Blood is not mobile.
Witch Elves, are keeping, frenzy and poison attacks.
Executioners, have two attacks and killing blow.
Black Guard, have two attacks and re-roll wounds.
Dark Riders are staying a core choice.
War Hydra, does have regeneration.


And I was told by the staff in my local GW about 3 months ago that Dark Elves weren't coming out this year.

Most of those are likely to be be so far off-beam (particularly given the content of previous rumours) that they're not worth considering.
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Post by Comrade igor »

If you compare everything to High Elves, and your only conclusions are "High Elves are better at this/that", then go play High Elves. Simple isn't it.

In other words, stop filling the forums with negativity.

We've put up with being the weakest army for a good number of years, and we have tried our hardest to compete and exceed people's expectations, and now finally we are getting a new army book and the changes sound good, no, infact they sound great and i, like many around here, know that if we can succeed with what we have right now then we can absolutely, undeniably and inevitably rock the house with the new, stronger, set of rules.
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Post by Dggrj »

I didn't notice where the WS4 for witches came up in the rumor thread, it's not on 1st page posts that I saw. Can someone give a source for that?

But - if that's true, and AWH is true, and they keep poison but lose reroll wounds in CoB, I do not understand how it can considered a boost!? The difference isn't that large granted, but it doesn't seem to be in our favor. Granted this is under the CoB whereas AWH doesn't rely on that, but it also doesn't consider the ward save (since that seems to be up in the air) and fighting WS2 enemies. Now if they're really just 10pts, maybe that will make them worth it, but given their defencelessness and special slot, I'd guess no vs. corsairs.

I'm getting (calculation-wise, though I'm sick and could be doing something wrong ATM, LMK if so) the following (done for WS4 since it's common enough and T3 and T4):

Old:

T3: 1/6 poison + 1/2hit * 3/4wound [1-1/2*1/2] = 54.17% wound
T4: 1/6 poison + 1/2hit * 5/9wound [1-2/3*2/3] = 44.44% wound

New:

T3: 1/6p + 1/2(1/6)p + [1/3 + 1/2(1/3)]*.5 = 50% wound
T4: 1/4p + 1/2*1/3 = 41.67% wound

I care a little more about WS5 also b/c I find myself against undead or bretonnian troops with WS2 not uncommonly. Now again, if they're just 10 points, I'm not complaining, but I just see this as a shift in WE, not a real gain or anything. And given their fragility, I still won't field them too often. I guess what I'm saying is let's consider that they might have new roles rather than try to fill the old with them precisely. At 10pts with poison and hatred and frenzy I don't think the CoB will be a necessity for them, I think it will be MORE take-it-if-you-want rather than must-have-to-protect-13pt-witches, at least for big blocks. New WE seem more MSU-styled to me.

That is all that my cold-addled brain can cough up at the moment...
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Post by Animatronicdemonskwerral »

dont they still get hatred even though they're frenzied? its been a while since i read the rulebook(and im at a public terminal) but i remember alot of people on warseer saying that hatred still effects frenzied... i could be wrong though.
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Post by Layne »

The interesting thing is that on the whole, the purpose of each unit remains the same (or so it would appear). But they will all be slightly better at it, at the cost of always pursuing. People say, right no problem, just means you've got to line up your chargers just so right? Right, it also means you've got to telegraph your punches. Still, the power of this army on the charge has increased to the point where lining up your chargers may be all you need to do. Like say, you set up so that obviously the next thing you're going to do is charge his [...] snotter them and overrun into [._.] , so he moves [...] out of the way and you just skip past them and set up for flank charge on [._.].

That was fun, I just went from telegraphing punches to punching telegraphs!

Basically what I'm thinking is that the power of this army on the charge might be of enough psychological value that we may now be able to use just the threat to cause our enemies to flee - not because the dice say run, but just because the other player is scared.

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Post by Zeth »

Dark Alliance: end of page 19 wrote:Maybe...

Core Witch Elves would have been better tho imo!

Zeth: end of page 19 wrote:Hmm,
that might explain it.
WS4 I5, core brings um down to 10PPM.

Dark Alliance: end of page 24 wrote:I don't agree with one of the changes (ie the reduction in ws) but you can't have everything I suppose.


So yeah they get WS4 it would seem. That plus DA's hint they might be core, leads me to believe that is they are core. As a reduction in WS for a special unit does not sit well.
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Post by Matras »

It was like that in the last Edition, I would be surprised if they changed that now.
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Post by Phierlihy »

The good news is the Assassin being able to start in enemy units will make him valuable now. My top 10 spots for an assassin are...

10. Skink Handler in a pack of Salamanders
9. Next to a looooong line of Glade Guard
8. Behind a unit of Grail Knights
7. In a Demon Flamers unit
6. In the rear or a unit of temple guard with a fat Slaan in the middle
5. A member of a Dwarven Organ Gun's crew
4. Standing next to a Vampire General
3. Standing next to a Hierophant
2. Standing next to Teclis or other poncy wizard
1. Depending on the wording - replacing a Steam Tank crew and auto-killing it or a crewman on an Anvil of Cheese
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Post by Zeth »

Old witches against WS4 troops:
T3 1.25 wounds
T4 1 Wound
T5 .75 wounds

First round with current CoB:
T3 1.6 wounds
T4 1.33 wounds
T5 1 wound

New Witches against WS4 Troops:

First Round
T3 1.5 wounds
T4 1.25 wounds
T5 1 wound

Subsequent rounds
T3 1 wound
T4 .83 wounds
T5 .666 wounds

This is per witch.

WS4 troops are the only ones where new witches will be worse in subsequent rounds offensively then old witches (assuming new witches keep poison, we have no information saying they do not).
Last edited by Zeth on Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dalamar »

No tactical changes as such... my army will just see:
More Dark Riders
More Harpies
More Shades
More Hydrae
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Post by Holt »

Im finding it hard to believe that both the WEs and Harpies will be core though. Multiple units of WEs would be devastating against low armourd non shooty lists, I know theres not many of these but Im sure you get the idea. It would make for some great looking themed lists though.

Mind you i did find it hard to believe that HEs would be getting ASF lol, not to compare the 2 books though because I remember reading somewhere else that GW doesnt compare books to each other, but again Im sure you get the idea.
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Post by Zeth »

Master of Arneim wrote:I'm afraid that the black guard will not be stubborn. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've a bad feeling about it. 13 points for double rerollable attacks and stubborn ad Ld 9 is pure cheese,

I consider this combo weaker then S6, ASF, 3+ vs shooting, woodsmen stubborn on 8 for 15 PPM. So cheese is not the word I would use, Lack of Synergy is the phrase I would use.

Both 2 attacks rerolling misses, and stubborn on LD 9 are great, but they do not support each other, like ASF, S6, and stubborn do.

I believe that very rarely are both of the buffs to BG going to come into effect.
While having both the changes does make them more versatile, I would prefer my elite infantry units to stay focused, like the HE elites, and all daemon infantry. It is not something I want to pay for on a unit like that. Give me versatility in scouts, cav, fast cav, characters, and I'll pay for it. Looking forward to the new shades btw.

Also this is why I'm quite skeptical of the new corsairs, they are paying points for the versatility of getting a bow. But really if I take corsairs over spearmen it is because it is because I want to use them offensively due to more attacks, and this want to be marching then up the field and won't be using the bow, which I'm paying 3 PPM for. Hopefully corsairs have the bow as an option and are not forced to take it.

Give me versatility on units who can use it efficiently and that is not rank and file infantry.
Last edited by Zeth on Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Handmaiden »

If you compare everything to High Elves, and your only conclusions are "High Elves are better at this/that", then go play High Elves. Simple isn't it.


When did I say that White Lions would be better than Black Guard? My counter was to the poster before who thought that the version of black guard was way out there in terms of cheese, and my comment was merely to say it isnt so by comparing it with another Elven stubborn unit. I didnt say one was better than the other , so get off my case.

Even If I did, theres nothing wrong with that, fyi.
Last edited by Handmaiden on Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Silverheimdall »

phierlihy wrote:The good news is the Assassin being able to start in enemy units will make him valuable now. My top 10 spots for an assassin are...

10. Skink Handler in a pack of Salamanders
9. Next to a looooong line of Glade Guard
8. Behind a unit of Grail Knights
7. In a Demon Flamers unit
6. In the rear or a unit of temple guard with a fat Slaan in the middle
5. A member of a Dwarven Organ Gun's crew
4. Standing next to a Vampire General
3. Standing next to a Hierophant
2. Standing next to Teclis or other poncy wizard
1. Depending on the wording - replacing a Steam Tank crew and auto-killing it or a crewman on an Anvil of Cheese


The hell, I haven't heard of NORMAL assassins hiding in ENEMY units other than Shadowblade... plus I'm sure there will be multiple restrictions to hide in enemy units.

1. Can't happen, there is no crew for the Steam Tank and it is not a Warmachine you can 'spike' at all.
I doubt you can replace crews of warmachines or equipment pieces (anvil, casket)
2. No-brainer unless Caradryan or some other hero other than a champion is next to him
3. Most hierophants fly alone for obvious reasons
4. Vamp general will smash you to pieces.
5. Very highly doubt you'll be allowed to hide with warmachine crews, im guessing infantry blocks or skirmishing units only, nothing else.
6. Huh, okay, weird but okay.
7. Could very easily turn against you.
8. In the skirmish archer packs would be hilarious
9. Heck even in Eternal Guards it'd be funny.
10 . I doubt you'd be allowed to hide in such a unit PLUS you'd be forced to attack Salamanders anyway o:!
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Post by Elfik »

I believe that very rarely are both of the buffs to BG going to come into effect.

What about 14 BG seven-wide moving against the ennemy's small knights unit? He charges, BG hold, next turn the knights are cut down?
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Post by Zeth »

Not a big fan of 7 wide, for various reasons.

But to address the scenario, BG seem like the obvious choice for all opponents to shoot at, as killing them off is easy and gets more points then any of the other infantry. Plus it reduces the effectivness of stubborn.

I expect my opponent to shoot/magic DR's turn one try and kill a couple units before they can set up to flank charge or kill their shooters.

Turn 2-3 I expect all the fire to go into those BG unit as they become the obvious shooting/magic target.

While if using Exec's Spearmen Corsairs and Witches mediocre opponents are more likely to spread their fire instead of just shooting BG, and experienced shooting players are going to just target and kill one of my units anyway, and BG being more expensive then other units I would have less points to spend else where.

Granted this is theory, and 13 PPM is pretty well priced under 200 points for 14 plus champ, so that might be cheap enough. They may not draw the attention I'm thinking, it will depend on how the new CoB interacts with the army and if I want to field execs once I know what they do.

But never the less. 2 attacks does not help them live, and stubborn does not help them kill.
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Post by Vonkrieglitz »

Would your opinion change if Black Guard did in fact become Immune to Psych, in addition to Stubborn and 2A? In this scenario they seem like a pretty handy unit, being hitty enough to pull some weight and guaranteed not to panic from the shooting, as you pointed out, they are likely to face from an experienced player, while also reliable (with Stubborn at Ld 9 if that stays) in case you need them to take a charge and stay put
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Post by Plasmapuff »

But never the less. 2 attacks does not help them live, and stubborn does not help them kill.

I agree. But I think you have it the other way round.

2 attacks (and hatred) will help them kill.
Stubborn (AND crucially I6) will help them survive.

If the rumours are true, I think BG will be the clear stand out in terms of elite infantry choices as you can "have your cake and eat it too". If you run the maths, 2 attacks, always re-roll hits,S4, is actually near equivalent to the kills of other elite infantry. Combined with stubborn on Ld 9, immune to pysch, probably striking first with I6 (unless facing ASF) and maybe an improving armour save/ASF banner, this makes them insane value for their points.

Yes I agree they can be wittled down from missiles/magic, but so can every other elite infantry unit. In the past this was a problem for BG as they were expensive and could be easily autobroken by fear, but this is now fixed. Besides why can't BG be the ones charging? Because if the stats are compared with other elite infantry units taking a charge, you'll find BG will come out on top once again.

Plus if you think about it, they're only 2 points more than corsairs, which at the moment look to be suffering the "good models but crud rules" syndrome. I'm still holding out that perhaps they get a magic banner which lets them "ambush" like miners etc... Thus you can have fix the problem of multiple core units being able to ambush.

But we really need to wait for the new rules to make more definitive conclusions. The intricate details are what ultimately decide which units will be the most cost effective.
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Post by Zeth »

I don't consider ItP a benefit in Warhammer and less so in Dark Elves, as we have good LD and rely on the flee charge reaction.

The exception would be BG as it supplements their stubborn, and yes it does make the unit quite a bit more viable. But in short no. My opinion is unlikely to change. But opinion is that they are viable and a great unit of they get ItP. Just does not fit my play style. But that may change depending no what the Witches and Execs end up being, I may have to make a large change to my style with this new book.

But really what is going to make the BG unit viable is ASF, if there truly is a banner with it, and the CoB can give it to a unit. Then we can safely take 2 units, and march then very far forward on turn 1 and turn without having to worry about charges. Which should limit the shooting the opponent can do probably down to 1 turn.
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