Rumor Discussion Thread

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:09 pm

Yea...there's a few silly choices, but from the sound of things, it's great units and good units, with only a few oddities like RhB coming off as useless. Overall, the army sounds like it's as well thought out as any in the game. Very strong, very flexible.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:18 pm

Daemons eh...

Just gotta pop a killing blow on that Nurgle Herald, and hope he doesnt 5+ ward it, to negate the unit's entire Regeneration.

Go go executioners.

Zeth · Post by **Zeth** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:25 pm

Or any unit with the CoB, witches or BG will do it just as well or better then execs.
Charge some DR's in there with killing blow, if the mounts get it your going to get a killing blow 76% of the time. Even if they don't trying your luck at 38% is going to worthwhile fairly often.

New CoB is going to make some people unhappy.

Bernh · Post by **Bernh** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:28 pm

Mounts don't get bonuses from CoB.

Post by **Thanee** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:41 pm

Elven prince wrote:Even more important: they'll be competitive and fun to play, while looking good on the table...

Couldn't agree more!

Zeth wrote:I would ask that everything in the army was well designed and thought out.

That would be ideal. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world.

So we have to take what we get, and while not perfect it is still very good.

Hey, they must leave some room for improvement, how else could there ever be an 8th edition. Also human error is a huge factor at times.

Bye
Thanee

Kia Sidhe · Post by **Kia Sidhe** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:04 pm

What about the Beastmasters, do they exist anylonger? Has he turned into a noble/master all the sudden in the forthcoming AB?

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:23 pm

Noble and beastmaster were rolled into the Master. The handlers for the hydra were boosted to have extra attacks.

Vonkrieglitz · Post by **Vonkrieglitz** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:33 pm

Master also has access to a mundane Beastmaster weapon, so you can build a beastmaster that actually happens to be a useful character (due to stats and magic item allowance). I like the change as there was no real way to make the Beastmaster good AND unique unless you made him a mage (using beasts magic like a Dragon-mage) which would have been kind of, meh.

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:36 pm

I'm curious....does anyone know what the beastmaster weapon does?

Getwisteerd · Post by **Getwisteerd** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:42 pm

It is an armour piercing handweapon. Or so I've heard.

The beastmaster weapons are the reason have beastmaster apprentices have AP

Izirath · Post by **Izirath** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:45 pm

GW has uploaded pics of all the new units! Check out the new assasins! They're awesome!

Sorry if it's already been posted but this thread is now a mess haha.

Moonblade · Post by **Moonblade** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:52 pm

Ok, thank you Zeth for putting it out better than me. I must say I was rather affected when I wrote my last few replies and I might have become too harsh. Sorry, everyone, my ill-temper got the better of me.

izirath, sorry to break it for you but yes we've seen those pictures already :} I know the thrill when you think you've discovered something nobody have seen yet and you realize it's actually already well-known

Izirath · Post by **Izirath** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:02 pm

Bleh well that sucks :/ Well it wasn't really a thrill, just wanted everyone to know about it.

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:13 pm

[quote=Zeth]Or any unit with the CoB, witches or BG will do it just as well or better then execs.
Charge some DR's in there with killing blow, if the mounts get it your going to get a killing blow 76% of the time. Even if they don't trying your luck at 38% is going to worthwhile fairly often.[/quote]

I think you're overestimating the chance there. I might be off, but I calculated the chance of at least one killing blow with 6 attacks rerolling to hit on a 3+ to be 61.717%. After the ward save, that's 41.14% chance at killing blow, but considering the Herald has WS5, that's a flattering number (though it also ignores other wounds that wound and get through all the saves).

Moonblade · Post by **Moonblade** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:17 pm

Now, I would like to put on the table some topics for discussion that regard some of our new magic items as stated on page 16 of this thread by Milney.

Black Dragon Egg (30pts)
One use only. Eaten at the start of either player's turn. Gives the user Toughness 6 and a Breath Weapon attack until the end of the turn.

- An interesting item none the less consisting of 1 offensive and 1 defensive ability, but can you already think of any particular use? I would like to hear any suggestions. It's rather important that it may be activated during other player's turn, but if you do you apparently can't take use of the breath weapon since it can't be used as stand-and-shoot reaction. However you may look onto this item as Potion of Toughness since it really gives effectively +3T much as Potion of Strength does, and it's about the same price too! The other option is to activate the egg in your turn, but then you can only take use of the breath weapon to shoot at units OR to get into close combat and take advantage of the increased Toughness out of fear of retribution. Am I missing something?

Chillblade (50pts)
Back from 6th Edition, and much improved. Each hit makes the target take a toughness test or take a wound with no armour save. If a model takes any wounds they cannot attack that turn

- It's easy for a DE character to pull off a good amount of hits - that's what we are good at. I expect about 3-4 hits against other characters or monsters with the aid of hatred and possible +1A from CoB. 3-4 Toughness tests is quite good! The possibility for at least 1 unsuccessful test is really high, especially against models without Ward Save, which is all we need.

Hydra Blade (35pts)
Same as in 6th Edition, but with a points decrease from 50pts to 35pts

- err... d3 attacks means an average of 2 for the cost of 35. Even HE with their notorious cheap magic items have +3A weapon for 60 gold!

And finally I would like you to compare these 2 armors: Armour of Darkness (25pts, 1+AS unimprovable) vs Blood Armour (20 pts, starts as 5+AS and has the potential to become 1+AS unimprovable again if the changes from the official eratta are still in force).

Elven prince · Post by **Elven prince** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:41 pm

Even HE with their notorious cheap magic items have +3A weapon for 60 gold!

HE have rather limited armory... the reason why you see combat heroes with Great Weapons as their first pick.

Zeth · Post by **Zeth** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:49 pm

decker_cky wrote:I think you're overestimating the chance there. I might be off, but I calculated the chance of at least one killing blow with 6 attacks rerolling to hit on a 3+ to be 61.717%. After the ward save, that's 41.14% chance at killing blow, but considering the Herald has WS5, that's a flattering number (though it also ignores other wounds that wound and get through all the saves).

I didn't include a ward save, and I think your forgetting hatred.

Deep one · Post by **Deep one** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:53 pm

Black Dragon Egg (30pts)
One use only. Eaten at the start of either player's turn. Gives the user Toughness 6 and a Breath Weapon attack until the end of the turn.

IMO it depends on the S of the breath weapon. Genereally, I fail to see the use of a T6 one shot item if we have a lot of nifty protective devices available in the 30-35P range, but in a friendly game an unexpected breath weapon might result in a glorious WTF moment for the opponent !smile!

Chillblade (50pts)
Back from 6th Edition, and much improved. Each hit makes the target take a toughness test or take a wound with no armour save. If a model takes any wounds they cannot attack that turn

Combine it with the STR+3 potion FTW?

Hydra Blade (35pts)
Same as in 6th Edition, but with a points decrease from 50pts to 35pts

Now everyone can have KB, extra attacks are suddenly a lot more interesting for me than they used to be.

And finally I would like you to compare these 2 armors: Armour of Darkness (25pts, 1+AS unimprovable) vs Blood Armour (20 pts, starts as 5+AS and has the potential to become 1+AS unimprovable again if the changes from the official eratta are still in force).

I wasn't aware the AoB was errata'd unimprovable. :cry:

As has been mentioned, the AoD goes well together with the Reversed Save on a Dread Lord!

Moonblade · Post by **Moonblade** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:00 pm

Combine it (Chillblade) with the STR+3 potion FTW?

- or combine it with Rune of Khaine for +d3 attacks :}

Potion of Strength + Rune of Khaine + Hydra Blade = 6-10 S7 attacks for 1 turn

That could scratch a Slan or completely vaporize a unit of Khemri chariots

I believe there would be some points left that may be just enough for at least the most basic of protection gear, like enchanted shield or Null Shard.

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:09 pm

Zeth wrote:
decker_cky wrote:I think you're overestimating the chance there. I might be off, but I calculated the chance of at least one killing blow with 6 attacks rerolling to hit on a 3+ to be 61.717%. After the ward save, that's 41.14% chance at killing blow, but considering the Herald has WS5, that's a flattering number (though it also ignores other wounds that wound and get through all the saves).
I didn't include a ward save, and I think your forgetting hatred.

Nope....8/9*1/6 =14.8%, but I calculated it to eliminate the occurrences of multiple KBs. So for the second attack, there's an 85.1% chance of it being relevant, and 14.8% of 85.2% is 12.62%.

When you extend that to 6 rolls, you have:
14.8%+12.62%+10.7%+9.16%+7.8%+6.65%

To actually calculate the chance of at least one successful killing blow after ward save would double the work, so I took that as a rough estimation.

Hmmmm, I suppose I could calculate for 4+ to hit quickly enough. I'll post that in a minute.

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:18 pm

I calculate a 40.67% chance of getting killing blow off on a Nurgle Herald with 6 attacks, using a 4+ reroll to hit, and taking into account a 5+ ward save.

edit: and if it were a 3+ to hit with reroll, it would be 46.4% chance of a killing blow including saves.

Bernh · Post by **Bernh** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:18 pm

- or combine it with Rune of Khaine for +d3 attacks :}

No one character able to take both magic items (aside banners for BSB Hag) and gifts of Khaine.

The buoyancy of water · Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:00 pm

Never heard about that Dragon Egg item. How about using it along with a Dark Pegasus or the clock that has the movement spell? Move up right next to any target you want (big unit, war machine, etc.) where no one can charge you, then activate the egg. You can now shoot your target and then your opponents will have trouble shooting down a T6 single model...

Cheers,
Dave

Getwisteerd · Post by **Getwisteerd** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:03 pm

It's easy enough to calculate the chance of not getting a killing blow. 1-that number is the chance of getting a killing blow.

The chance of not getting a killing blow with 1 3+ to hit attack (including hatred) is 1-(chance of killing blow: 8/9*1/6)
Which is 0.851...
Chance of that happening 6 times in a row is 0.851^6 = 0.382...

1-0.382 = 0.618

Thus, the chance of getting a killing a killing blow with 6 3+ to hit attacks is 62%

EDIT: this is before the ward save. if the target has a 5+ ward save it's 41%

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:18 pm

You need to put the ward save in before you raise it to the power.

Chance of not getting a successful killing blow = 1-(8/9*5/6*2/3) = 0.901234568

1-0.901234568^6 = 0.464169973, or a 46.4% chance of getting a successful killing blow hitting on 3+ with rerolls.

Similarly, for hitting on 4+ (which is the relevant calculation), the chances are:
1-0.916666667^6 = 0.406707806, or a 40.67% chance of getting a successful killing blow on the herald.